Using toy drives to proselytize to needy families

[mirele]

I'd just like to say that using an extremely stressful time (and Christmas is such a stressful time, no doubt about it, because there are so many social and cultural expectations around it) to proselytise is wrong.

I will never forget, at age 14, getting a rundown of the "Four Spiritual Laws" by my Southern Baptist neighbor. What you should also know is that she did this the same afternoon (a) after my mother attempted suicide and (b) I had to call for help (this was pre-911, so it was a bit more complicated then). I was FURIOUS afterwards when I had time to think about it. I didn't need Jesus at that point. I needed to know my mom was going to live and be OK.

I was a believer starting at age 16, until it all fell apart 30 years later (too long to recount here). But I was never, never happy about preaching at adults and children how they needed Jesus or else Hellfire and Damnation. I can thank the next door neighbor lady for that.

[mirele]

I wonder how many of these children who are getting tracts and being encouraged to go to that 12 week program already believe in a God, it just isn't the god approved of by Franklin Graham?

I'd be worried about sending a child to a program sponsored by Franklin Graham. He's quite the hateful jackhole. But I guess he's determined to make disciples twice the children of hell that he is (Matthew 23:15).

[Sola]

That wouldn't bring much joy to the orphan kids though.

Edited to add: you guys are on crack if you think your average kid would choose "no present" over "present plus piece of paper with cartoons about some dead guy." Fucks sake, kids are as gory as all shit most of the time and not just on Halloween.

I'm sorry. But there it is. You are CRACKHEADS.

You're kidding right? YOU must be on fucking crack if you think one person here has suggested that kids would choose no present over present with bullshit from church. Read what we've put.

[2Cents]

LilMissMetaphor wrote:

formergothardite wrote:

It would be so awesome if all those boxes went to the parents then they could get to have the joy of giving it to their children and not have Samaritans Purse get that joy. Then parents could decide if they wanted to take gospel info to give their kids.

That wouldn't bring much joy to the orphan kids though.

Edited to add: you guys are on crack if you think your average kid would choose "no present" over "present plus piece of paper with cartoons about some dead guy." Fucks sake, kids are as gory as all shit most of the time and not just on Halloween.

I'm sorry. But there it is. You are CRACKHEADS.

I think that you must reading a different thread then I am bc nowhere have I seen anything that says this. I do believe the main issue that was brought up was that children who are in need of these presents SHOULD NOT have to accept religious teaching along with the gift. Pretty simple when you think about it.

As for the orphan kid comment don't you think that for them, getting a gift from someone that they know, a face that they recognize would have more meaning then it being just from some anonymous person with a generic card.

[OnceModestTwiceShy]

I'd like to thank everyone for helping me make up my mind to make Adopt a Family my holiday charity this year. I was looking up info earlier and thinking that it might be too expensive for my grad student budget, but reading these stories I think that I can definitely make it happen if I'm smart with my shopping.

[Arete]

They way I see it is looking at which option is worse. Either a kid does/may not get any presents at all or they get presents and some "witness material". I think that as a kid the latter would be worse but YMMV.

You can find this on page 7 of this thread, so yes, someone did indeed say that a kid would rather have no present than have a present with witness materials. That was what LMM was commenting on, and I also seconded (not the crackhead part, just that an adult was projecting an adult's sensibilities on to a child).

[Boogalou]

You can find this on page 7 of this thread, so yes, someone did indeed say that a kid would rather have no present than have a present with witness materials. That was what LMM was commenting on, and I also seconded (not the crackhead part, just that an adult was projecting an adult's sensibilities on to a child).

Erm, I said that, but that was not what I meant. This is why I should not type things late at night. I meant that the not getting presents would be worse... so in this case I meant the former. My bad, I should have proofread. Is it possible for someone to edit that for me?

[LilMissMetaphor]

Erm, I said that, but that was not what I meant. This is why I should not type things late at night. I meant that the not getting presents would be worse... so in this case I meant the former. My bad, I should have proofread. Is it possible for someone to edit that for me?

OK. And probably I should have specified you instead of a general 'you guys', although when I was reading this thread last night it seemed like most were agreeing that a kid is going to be so emotionally scarred from a religious tract with gory depictions that he or she would be better off or happier with no present at all. I am glad to see no one is as big of a crackhead as I thought, except maybe valsa, but that's nothing new.

[JesusFightClub]

It's not emotionally scarred so much as "this kid may have a mum and dad who won't believe in the religion portrayed."

I do not think a small child given a present and told "Hey, you know if you want this? You have to believe in Our Lord And Saviour Jesus Christ" is a particularly good plan. Would it make sense for me to do it? That'd be interesting. Would you be delighted if your small child got a lovely present as long as they said they were a Marxist-Leninist, which is an important (I would say vital) political position? I suspect not.

Either you give a present without strings or it's dishonest to give the present.

[Guest Anonymous]

I don't think many people were saying that the child would rather have no present. I think it was more that a child would rather have a present, and a parent struggling to make ends meet would never want to deny their child a gift, and so when Christian groups use that as a proselytizing opportunity, they're really just forcing their bullshit onto a captive market. Which seems pretty dickish.

[LilMissMetaphor]

I don't think many people were saying that the child would rather have no present. I think it was more that a child would rather have a present, and a parent struggling to make ends meet would never want to deny their child a gift, and so when Christian groups use that as a proselytizing opportunity, they're really just forcing their bullshit onto a captive market. Which seems pretty dickish.

Well, yeah. But I am pretty cynical and tend to believe few things in this world come without strings of some kind attached. Plus, I also go by the maxim, "any port in a storm", though clearly not everyone agrees.

[Maggie Mae]

It's not emotionally scarred so much as "this kid may have a mum and dad who won't believe in the religion portrayed."

I do not think a small child given a present and told "Hey, you know if you want this? You have to believe in Our Lord And Saviour Jesus Christ" is a particularly good plan. Would it make sense for me to do it? That'd be interesting. Would you be delighted if your small child got a lovely present as long as they said they were a Marxist-Leninist, which is an important (I would say vital) political position? I suspect not.

Either you give a present without strings or it's dishonest to give the present.

There goes my gift-giving strategy.

Seriously though, giving out tracts with gifts is bullshit. And I'm sure it's ineffective as well. I remember getting that crap as a kid, and IF I bothered to read it, I would have been like "whatever." Or I would have used it in as a book marker in a book I actually liked, if it had a pretty picture on it. It's disrespectful of the parents, no one wants a stranger to go to their kid and tell them about any religion that isn't their own.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I don't think many people were saying that the child would rather have no present. I think it was more that a child would rather have a present, and a parent struggling to make ends meet would never want to deny their child a gift, and so when Christian groups use that as a proselytizing opportunity, they're really just forcing their bullshit onto a captive market. Which seems pretty dickish.

Exactly.

Meanwhile, I'll pass on the crack, but how about those heroin-infused tampons from Wal-Mart? :lol:

[luckylibrarian]

If the church felt they had to include some kind of plug for their religion, I'd be okay with a schedule of events and a note saying the family was welcome to come. As far as gospel stories scaring kids, isn't that the whole point? Scare kids and adults into thinking they'll go to Hell if they don't believe in a Jesus who suffered and died on the cross so that they'll come to church and open their wallets. I remember having to participate in the Stations of the Cross at Easter time at my Catholic elementary school. Even as a pre-teen, I was really disturbed by the images of Jesus being whipped and having nails pounded through his hands and feet. That's scary shit, and I don't think it's unreasonable to be concerned that *some* kids - especially little kids - would be really frightened by that. Not all kids are exposed to and can handle gore and violence.

We celebrate a completely secular Christmas in my house. It's totally commercial and about the presents. I would be annoyed if my child were given a gift with a tract, just as I am annoyed at the family who gives out those $1,000,000 bills that are religious tracts to Trick-or-Treaters. Let kids be kids.

[MarthaMarcyMayMarlen]

I get your point, but why can't you just throw them away? Thats what I do. I know when I take my children to strangers houses I run the risk of them being given those. Just like if my kids were allergic to nuts I know I run the risk of them being given candy with nuts in it. Thats just the way it is.

[doggie]

I hate to inform some Christians this but it needs said. Pretty much everyone in the US knows about the bible. So all of the spreading is only done for selfish reasons. And even worse news they for the most part would be following it if they wanted too already.

If you have to resort to converting children there is something wrong with you. Children should not be burdened with human religion till they are old enough to know that no one knows if it is real or not.

[Guest Anonymous]

I get your point, but why can't you just throw them away? Thats what I do. I know when I take my children to strangers houses I run the risk of them being given those. Just like if my kids were allergic to nuts I know I run the risk of them being given candy with nuts in it. Thats just the way it is.

Wow, that sounds really miserable. I have never been at risk of receiving a Bible tract from anyone I'm likely to visit. To me, that seems less like finding nuts in chocolate, and more like that time I found that tooth in a hot dog (i.e. a really creepy one-off).

[MarthaMarcyMayMarlen]

I meant when kids are trick or treating.

[valsa]

I get your point, but why can't you just throw them away?

Because you shouldn't have to.

[Austin]

I get your point, but why can't you just throw them away? Thats what I do. I know when I take my children to strangers houses I run the risk of them being given those. Just like if my kids were allergic to nuts I know I run the risk of them being given candy with nuts in it. Thats just the way it is.

I don't think anyone is arguing that that's not "the way it is", or that a kid wouldn't take a gift with strings over no gift, but the point is that it shouldn't be that way. And the only way that it will ever stop being that way to any extent at all is if people push back. If anyone believes they can't be a part of change, I don't even know how they get up in the morning. We all have spheres of influence that we can affect. No one person can fix everything, but a lot of people can make a difference.

[blisterine]

last year i didn't participate in operation christmas child. this year, i wasn't going to either. the church did mention that occ really needed more boxes for older girls aged 10-14, because they always run out of those first, as people prefer to make boxes for little cutesy kids.

i was buying halloween candy and i thought about the fact that an older girl might end up with a box meant for a younger girl or worse, no box at all. "god convicted my heart"-and i was still pissed off about the church not wanting orange and black wrapped candy for the fall festival. i put the pixie sticks back and bought stuff for an older girl: some light cosmetics, soap, toothbrush/toothpaste, washcloth and face towel, deodorant, bath powder, 2 pairs of basic white socks, a pair of plush spa socks, a pretty tote with flowers on it, a comb and brush set with plastic mirror, a large tee-shirt, a medium sports bra (whch will stretch 10 ways to sunday), a notebook with three gel pens, a pair of size 7-8 flip-flops, a tiny rag doll, and beads for a necklace with bracelets i made on stretchy cord-no, there was not a cross on the necklace. everything was pink, pink, pink! i managed to cram it all in the shoebox. i wrapped it in glittery tinkerbelle paper- not xmas paper. i wrote a note and taped it on the inside of the box, stating i hoped she enjoyed everything and that my family would be thinking good thoughts for her, that she may always have good things happen in her life. i didn't mention jesus or holidays or the gospel or sin. hopefully it will help counteract any "gospel" information that may be added by a volunteer later.

i hated to think about not getting something when everybody else around me was getting a gift box. no girl or boy ever needs to be left out. i don't agree with forcing god down a child's throat but they don"t need to be excluded.

i do know that the group of people in our town who go to hondouras for gift-giving do take a shitload of gideon bibles to hand out. but a dentist, a doctor and an optometrist also go with medical equipment and supplies. a photographer also goes and take family portraits. any money left over is spent on bulk bags of oatmeal, rice and beans to give out. in the spring and fall, the same people bring over an entire shipping container with clean used clothes and new shoes. yes, even occ doesn't expect children to wear used shoes- unlike the holy holy holy duggars! they give out school supplies in the fall. the same medical team goes. they bring more bulk foods.

i don't agree with forcing religion on people but i hate to think about people going without. if the child got the gospel in her box, it didn't come from me!

i have another story to tell but i'll post it later. eggs don't devil themselves, ya know!

[gardenvarietycitizen]

What if it were people handing out pornographic leaflets to kids on Halloween?

I think there's this underlying assumption that everyone surely must find gospel tracts harmless because somehow deep down we're all supposed to be some flavor of generic Christian, even if perhaps backslidden.

But it's not that way.

[SisiL78]

Every year I try to participate in MItzvah day with the Jewish Federation. I wonder if I shouldn't try to suggest a secular gift drive for next year (planning anything with the UJF requires way more time than it should.... no wonder Jews don't prostelytize.... we'd never agree on how to do it). Anyhoo, it seems like there is a need for non-judgemental and non-prostelyzing gifts... It seems especially important that there be gifts for older kids.

[MarthaMarcyMayMarlen]

What if it were people handing out pornographic leaflets to kids on Halloween?

.[/quote

Yeah, because its just like porn. :roll:

[formergothardite]