God is pro-life

[valsa]

I find it rather ironic that many of you think nothing of lumping all religious people in the same category as the fundies (and in fact some of you don't even know what fundies are)while defending prostitutes. Prostitution is illegal, being a fundie or a churchgoer is not.

Prostitutes aren't trying to force everyone to be prostitutes. Also, prostitution doesn't hurt anyone (in-and-of-itself. There are obvious issues when it comes to things like underage prostitution, violent pimps, violence against prostitutes, etc. However, many people would like to see things like legalization and regulation of prostitution to help combat some of those problems) Fundies are trying to legislate their beliefs and they often hurt people (their children through physical, mental, and educational abuse & minorities like homosexuals and non-Christians through above mentioned fundie legislation are just a few)

ETA: X-posted some of this with wtfrenchtoast

[Witsec7]

I have NEVER said I tell women what to do with their bodies but sorry a prostitute isn't exactly top of the scale when it comes to decency. ..

Every time you say a women 'should' be using birth control, 'should' be abstinent, you are telling women what to do with their bodies.

[Anxious Girl]

catdogandbirdmommy, LOGIC... You don't have it or understand it. Your emotions on people's actions don't rule what they can do with their bodies. Deal with it, bitch.

[simplysweet]

catdogandbirdmommy, LOGIC... You don't have it or understand it. Your emotions on people's actions don't rule what they can do with their bodies. Deal with it, bitch.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Mela99]

Again, you are not paying for people to get abortions.

Also, I think getting an abortion is the farthest thing from a poor choice. Having a child you don't want or cannot support is what I consider a poor choice.

I still think that's a hilarious argument. No federal funding, taxes or a single cent goes to abortions. Now... welfare and childcare and health care and food stamps to feed a child that someone already can't afford... yeah.

[Effie]

One abortion, I get it, accidents happen. maybe two even, but 5? come on now, that is being careless. Women like this should be using birth control and the one I knew who wasn't was a complete psycho (she was also a hooker too btw).

I don't understand. Being a hooker isn't bad towards anyone other than the woman herself. I do not consider "a hooker" to be less immoral or more psycho than anyone else. Wait, is it illegal to prostitute yourself in U.S.? Wow, I didn't think I could dislike that country any more than I'm currently doing.

Why can't you just make it legal to sell sex, and illegal to buy sex? Just an idea... :roll:

[Witsec7]

I still think that's a hilarious argument. No federal funding, taxes or a single cent goes to abortions. Now... welfare and childcare and health care and food stamps to feed a child that someone already can't afford... yeah.

This coming from the catdogandsquidmommy who claims to know and understand the Hyde amendment. :roll:

[Effie]

Again, you are not paying for people to get abortions.

Also, I think getting an abortion is the farthest thing from a poor choice. Having a child you don't want or cannot support is what I consider a poor choice.

I actually think that having an abortion is a noble choice. Some women (full of guilt) decide to go through with the pregnancy and then raise the child, even though they are not capable to raise it. I respect women who recognize that they are not prepared, not financially stable, not a role model, or just not capable to raise a child. Some women will never be.

[valsa]

Why can't you just make it legal to sell sex, and illegal to buy sex? Just an idea... :roll:

Because then we'd have no way to punish whores, of course.

Prostitution (sellng sex) being illegal is one of the reasons prostitutes in the U.S. have such a horrifically high risk of being victims of violence. It's kind of hard to report a john or pimp attacking or raping you, because then you face being punished as well.

[Maul the Koala]

Catdogandbirdmommy, do you happen to be new_wave_princess on this site?

harderworld.com

If so, those in glass houses really need to stop throwing stones.

[simplysweet]

I actually think that having an abortion is a noble choice. Some women (full of guilt) decide to go through with the pregnancy and then raise the child, even though they are not capable to raise it. I respect women who recognize that they are not prepared, not financially stable, not a role model, or just not capable to raise a child. Some women will never be.

That is what my cousin did. She was on BC and was taking it correctly. She got pregnant in college; her and the father were just friends. Instead of quitting school to carry the baby and then give it up (she did consider this but she was close to finishing her degree and graduation) she had a termination. It was not a easy choice but she knew that she could not juggle school, adoption, doctor appointments, everything. It was her choice.

Edited: I did not see you there digging in your purse for the cash to pay for her termination....... are you high?

[emmiedahl]

Catdogandbirdmommy, do you happen to be new_wave_princess on this site?

harderworld.com

If so, those in glass houses really need to stop throwing stones.

[B5SnowDog]

Catdogandbirdmommy, do you happen to be new_wave_princess on this site?

harderworld.com

If so, those in glass houses really need to stop throwing stones.

If she is, I'd like to see the posts in which she was called lazy for not taking cashier jobs.

[Gizmola]

http://harderworld.com/category/ayn-rand/

Oh, spare me. If catbirddogmommy is an actual Objectivist I think the likelihood of having any decent discussion is slim to none. If there were ever people who are stringently black & white in their thinking, it's Objectivists. Further, they love to divide the world into decent people and indecent people. Blah, blah, blah.

[Deleted01]

[

And you may have issues with PP (stupid issues, but whatever) but it was originally developed so that poor women, many of whom were married with other children, could avoid having a child that might kill them or spread their finances so thin that one of their already-born child might, literally, starve to death or avoid having a back-alley abortion.

No, PP was originally developed so (Margaret Sanger hoped) black women could abort their black babies.

[Gizmola]

No, PP was originally developed so (Margaret Sanger hoped) black women could abort their black babies.

Citation?

[Deleted01]

Citation?

On blacks, immigrants and indigents:

"...human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... human beings who never should have been born." Margaret Sanger, Pivot of Civilization, referring to immigrants and poor people

"We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population," she said, "if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members." Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America, by Linda Gordon

[Arete]

PixieDust,

What you are stating is about as accurate as what is stated about Jews in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I recognize the second quote, and it has been pared down and taken completely out of context. Sanger wanted black women to have the same reproductive choices as white women. She worked with pastors in the African American community in NY to spread the word about a clinic she opened that was staffed by AA doctors and nurses. She knew if the pastors were involved that the women would trust their word that this was not an attempt to sterilize them. It was to actually help these women be able to decide their lives.

I'm not going to bullshit you, she was racist as were most people in the time and place where she lived. However, her goal was NOT to exterminate African Americans. That is one of the big lies of the pro life movement.

[Austin]

On blacks, immigrants and indigents:

"...human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... human beings who never should have been born." Margaret Sanger, Pivot of Civilization, referring to immigrants and poor people

"We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population," she said, "if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members." Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America, by Linda Gordon

Well, cute way to tell part of the story, but not the whole story.

Many widely-respected people were proponents of the eugenics fad early in the 20th century. People such as Winston Churchill, Marie Stopes, H. G. Wells, Theodore Roosevelt, George Bernard Shaw, John Maynard Keynes, John Harvey Kellogg, Linus Pauling, and Sidney Webb. Margaret Sanger was among them. That sort of thinking, at least overtly, went by the wayside after WWII and the horror of the Holocaust. It was pseudoscience and was eventually recognized as such.

Margaret Sanger did not start PP as a way to kill off black babies. :roll: Hardly. Probably a good idea to educate yourself on the whole story.

[formergothardite]

The last quote is from a letter she wrote to Clarence Gamble trying to get black ministers to make it clear that that the point of PP is not to exterminate AA. The whole quote is:

"we do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious member."

She was racist, most people back then were, but her goal wasn't to go kill black people.

[valsa]

On blacks, immigrants and indigents:

"...human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... human beings who never should have been born." Margaret Sanger, Pivot of Civilization, referring to immigrants and poor people

"We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population," she said, "if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members." Woman's Body, Woman's Right: A Social History of Birth Control in America, by Linda Gordon

Are you seriously pulling that out-of-context bullshit? Try the full quote:

It seems to me from my experience . . . in North Carolina, Georgia, Tennessee, and Texas, that while the colored Negroes have great respect for white doctors, they can get closer to their own members and more or less lay their cards on the table. . . . They do not do this with the white people, and if we can train the Negro doctor at the clinic, he can go among them with enthusiasm and with knowledge, which, I believe, will have far-reaching results. . . . His work, in my opinion, should be entirely with the Negro profession and the nurses, hospital, social workers, as well as the County's white doctors. His success will depend upon his personality and his training by us. The minister's work is also important, and also he should be trained, perhaps by the Federation, as to our ideals and the goal that we hope to reach. We do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs.

Sanger was also a nurse who worked with immigrants and saw the horrible impact that lack of reproductive options had on those women. She wanted to educate women on how to reduce the number of children they had in a time when children were literally dying from poverty and their mothers were dying from maternal complications.

Was Sanger a supporter of eugenics? Yes. However, so were most of the intellectuals of her day. Did she start PP to kill off black babies? Fuck you, no.

[Arete]

It's a very common move in the pro-life literature to pull that quote out of it's context in order to convince people that Sanger was after exterminating AA children. To be honest, some way out there hard line AA pastors and some imams in the Nation of Islam will use the pared down quote to establish a "chain of evidence" that whites want is to exterminate of African Americans, and not merely assign them second class citizenship.

[Deleted01]

Okay, sorry. I was wrong.

PixieDust,

What you are stating is about as accurate as what is stated about Jews in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. I recognize the second quote, and it has been pared down and taken completely out of context. Sanger wanted black women to have the same reproductive choices as white women. She worked with pastors in the African American community in NY to spread the word about a clinic she opened that was staffed by AA doctors and nurses. She knew if the pastors were involved that the women would trust their word that this was not an attempt to sterilize them. It was to actually help these women be able to decide their lives.

I'm not going to bullshit you, she was racist as were most people in the time and place where she lived. However, her goal was NOT to exterminate African Americans. That is one of the big lies of the pro life movement.

I imagine the truth is somewhere in the middle. I have a hard time imagining a racist wanting to do anything to "help" those of an "inferior" race.

I did go to PP on a couple of occasions - we were poor, but working, and I needed a + pregnancy test with an EDD to apply for Medicaid. The woman I dealt with did put some pressure on me to consider aborting. It happens.

[formergothardite]

Does anyone have the full quote for the first thing Pixie quoted? I did a quick google and can't find it. Since the second one is edited and taken out of context, I wonder how much the first one is too. I'm not denying she was racist, I just wonder what she really wrote.

[Arete]

Did Sanger want the poor and AAs breeding less? The answer is yes. Part of that was because she was a eugenicist. She also watched her mother die of back to back pregnancies, and went into tenaments to nurse the poor regardless of whether they were of good breeding stock. She watched a lot of women die and saw the results of children being orphaned because they could not control their fertility and all the pregnancies sapped their health. Helping women have fewer children just made sense to her from both a health and a racial point of view. She's complicated, and like a lot of people from the past, cannot neccessarily be judged accurately by today's standards.

ETA- I tried looking up the first quote with Google, can't find it yet either. She may indeed have said some of that, but it doesn't make her a race exterminator.