Abortion on a 10yo rape victim? Lose your licence in KS

[emmiedahl]

Florence - I am having a hard time understanding what you wrote. Are you saying if a 10 year old chose to carry the baby to term she needs psychiatric help??

I mean, I think that is true for a raped 10 year old either way, but it sounds like you are saying if a 10 year old wanted to keep the baby that proves she needs help psychologically?

I am not FlorenceHamilton but speaking for myself: a 10 year old who wants to continue the pregnancy knowing that the baby will likely not survive and her own health will be compromised for life needs psychiatric help. And a parent who loves her enough to make good decisions for her even though it is difficult. And a medical provider who is committed to the patient's best interest.

I would *not* feel good about my baby going through an abortion at such a tender age. But I don't actually feel good about many of the medical treatments my children have had to endure. Last week I pinned down my toddler while nurses inserted an IV into his tiny little arm. I cried, and the doctor told me she also cried when her baby had to have an IV. I don't feel good about that. I am glad that he was rehydrated after a monster stomach flu, but nothing else about the situation makes me happy. It makes me dizzy and nauseous just to think about it, to be honest. This would be a similar situation.

[WokChop]

I am not saying 10 is not too young to be a mother, I am just saying that I don't think any age is so young she doesn't have the right to make that choice.

Jesus Christ! When I was 10, I would have chose to stay home from school each day, eat Jeno's pizza rolls every night for dinner, and would have probably chosen to never bathe.

A ten-year-old is not equipped to make major decisions; a ten-year-old does not have the necessary reasoning skills that one obtains as her brain matures. That is why children are cared for by adults until they are old enough to begin caring for themselves.

[valsa]

I am not saying 10 is not too young to be a mother, I am just saying that I don't think any age is so young she doesn't have the right to make that choice.

So do you think there's no age too young to decide about other medical decisions? If your kids don't want to take their antibiotics, you don't make them? If they're dehydrated and need an IV but don't want a needle poke, you say "okay" even if it puts their life in danger?

I also find the assuption that a girl who is menstruating must automatically understand the process of conception and the full effects of carrying a child to term to be laughable. The youngest girl on record to ever give birth was 5 years old- I suppose that's old enough to make a fully informed decision on the matter as well.

[Pretzel]

Mentally disabled doesn't necessarily mean 'incapable of making decisions.' If this were my daughter, I would sit her down, along with her doctor and a child psychologist, and discuss the pros and cons of the situation in terms she could understand. I'd then have the psychologist quiz her on it to ensure she actually understood what was going on enough to make the most informed decision someone in her situation could make.

If she chose to carry, then so be it. She'd be watched pretty much around the clock for the duration, likely followed by a c-section. I'd raise the resulting child alongside her - more as sisters than as mother and child. (There is no way I'd make her adopt the child out unless that was her expressed wish and had an understanding of what it meant.)

But if she didn't want the child - and the article suggests she categorically did not - then I'd do whatever it took to secure a safe and timely abortion for her.

Ten-year-old rape victims with less developed minds should not be forced into a situation that would be terrifying for a fully aware adult. The only way I'd permit the pregnancy – a dangerous situation - as a parent is if I saw sufficient evidence she understood enough about the situation to make the most informed decision her mind would allow.

If the child were sufficiently disabled that she could not understand the situation at all, then it would be abortion. No doubt about it.

Great post, Burris.

Although I think what Emmiedahl wrote is the procedure I'd choose for a child(!) that age and in that situation. I still would never hush up what she has to go/ had to go through. I think, like Emmie said, you have to make decisions for your child and decide what's best for them (and I totally agree, a probably non-viable pregnancy in a 10-year-old? Never!) but even a 10-year-old has the right to know what will happen/happened to them. Whether one chooses to tell them before the procedure or when they are older I don't care, but eventually that person has the right to know what went on with them at that time. This scenario makes me think of all the intersex people who were operated as an infant/toddler/child and were never told what was actually/supposedly "wrong" with them but they very well feel that something's not right.

I really do think that a parent has a right and the responsibility to decide over medical procedures for a 10-year-old in that situation. However, I don't think people are entitled to hide information like that from another person, ever. Burris pointed out quite well what I'd do to make the situation clear to my child. Additionally, children are different. Some 10-year-olds would totally get it. But would they be able to make the right decision? No. Do they have a right to be told sooner or later?Absolutely.I hope that a parent would be wise enough to know what's best and even better, seek professional counselling in that situation.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

In general, maybe some. A child who has just been raped by a relative? Maybe not. If she knows, then she knows, but I think it would be a hard thing to know.

As for it being "forced"; it would depend on the medical situation, but I assume a 10 year old cannot bear a child without immense lifelong effects. What will this do to her body? The chances of carrying the child to viability are already low; this fetus does not have a great chance as it is. So how much are you willing to put the little girl through for that small chance? Months of morning sickness, followed by months of bedrest. Regular pelvic exams on a child who is still recovering from rape. A vaginal birth is probably impossible, so there will be a surgery and recovery. The pressure of a baby on a 10 year old's organs could cause lifelong issues with uterine prolapse and incontinence. I would never put my child through this just on the off chance that the fetus might survive. Fuck that.

In that case, an abortion would be similar to the time I made her take Tylenol for a fever, the time I dragged her to the hospital kicking and screaming to get her hand sewn up after a Halloween pumpkin carving fiasco, etc. I am all for choice in young women, but a 10 year old is *not* a young woman. It is a child who is not capable of weighing the risks and benefits. I care about my daughter's feelings, but I have to take action regardless of her feelings when her health is at risk.

If it were either of the offspring in this situation, I would feel like shit for "forcing" them to undergo an abortion. But, I also feel like shit for "forcing" them to undergo vaccinations and other medical procedures that are for their own good. They are old enough to have an idea of what is going on with their own body and what medical treatments they are receiving, but, ultimately, which ones they actually do receive is not their choice because of their age.

It's hard enough to be in my early twenties, raising two kids from what was a fucked up but ultimately consensual relationship. I can NOT imagine burdening them with raising a child at 10 that came from rape and incest, and carrying a pregnancy that very well might put their life in danger.

[CanadianHippie]

In general, maybe some. A child who has just been raped by a relative? Maybe not. If she knows, then she knows, but I think it would be a hard thing to know.

As for it being "forced"; it would depend on the medical situation, but I assume a 10 year old cannot bear a child without immense lifelong effects. What will this do to her body? The chances of carrying the child to viability are already low; this fetus does not have a great chance as it is. So how much are you willing to put the little girl through for that small chance? Months of morning sickness, followed by months of bedrest. Regular pelvic exams on a child who is still recovering from rape. A vaginal birth is probably impossible, so there will be a surgery and recovery. The pressure of a baby on a 10 year old's organs could cause lifelong issues with uterine prolapse and incontinence. I would never put my child through this just on the off chance that the fetus might survive. Fuck that.

In that case, an abortion would be similar to the time I made her take Tylenol for a fever, the time I dragged her to the hospital kicking and screaming to get her hand sewn up after a Halloween pumpkin carving fiasco, etc. I am all for choice in young women, but a 10 year old is *not* a young woman. It is a child who is not capable of weighing the risks and benefits. I care about my daughter's feelings, but I have to take action regardless of her feelings when her health is at risk.

Just because the abortion is the best course of action, that is no way to knowingly lie to her. 10 year olds are not stupid.

The examples you give in the last paragraph? I doubt you would lie to your child about taking Tylenol for a fever or getting stitches after being cut.

Your children trust you and lying about a medical procedure to "protect" them just violates that. In a situation where she has already been hurt by someone she is supposed to be able to trust, I find it appalling that you consider the right choice to be more lying. She doesn't need all the gruesome details, but she deserves more that the "tummy trouble" BS that you suggested earlier.

[CanadianHippie]

If it were either of the offspring in this situation, I would feel like shit for "forcing" them to undergo an abortion. ... They are old enough to have an idea of what is going on with their own body and what medical treatments they are receiving, but, ultimately, which ones they actually do receive is not their choice because of their age.

Exactly. Mom and dad may have the final say in this case, but treating a 10 year old like a 3 year old is just silly.

[Alecto]

Just because the abortion is the best course of action, that is no way to knowingly lie to her. 10 year olds are not stupid.

If the child in question is developmentally delayed, not telling the whole truth might benefit them. An average 10 year old might figure it out, but if this child had the mentality of a 4 year old, it might not be in her best interest to tell her the whole truth at this point in time.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

Exactly. Mom and dad may have the final say in this case, but treating a 10 year old like a 3 year old is just silly.

I don't know when I would tell, though. Never telling them they went through the procedure seems shitty, but I might not tell, at the time, depending on how emotionally traumatized they were.

[CanadianHippie]

If the child in question is developmentally delayed, not telling the whole truth might benefit them. An average 10 year old might figure it out, but if this child had the mentality of a 4 year old, it might not be in her best interest to tell her the whole truth at this point in time.

Which is why my original post on the matter specified "most 10 year olds". The 10 year old in the article already knows she's pregnant even if she doesn't fully understand it. At that point there is no reason to lie. And deciding that lying regardless of where the 10 year old is on the developmental spectrum, while an understandable initial reaction, is not going to be the best choice for most 10 year olds.

[CanadianHippie]

I don't know when I would tell, though. Never telling them they went through the procedure seems shitty, but I might not tell, at the time, depending on how emotionally traumatized they were.

I'm not even sure how it would be kept a secret "unless it's medically necessary". The doctor isn't going leave it out of the medical records. What happens when the 10 year old is 20 and goes in for an exam and the doctor reads in her file and feels there is a need to ask her about it? She is going to be very, very hurt by the fact that she had to find out ten years after the fact from her doctor.

[Glass Cowcatcher]

I'm not even sure how it would be kept a secret "unless it's medically necessary". The doctor isn't going leave it out of the medical records. What happens when the 10 year old is 20 and goes in for an exam and the doctor reads in her file and feels there is a need to ask her about it? She is going to be very, very hurt by the fact that she had to find out ten years after the fact from her doctor.

I didn't mean that long. I meant, I don't know if I would tell them right at the moment if the procedure was an abortion. That would depend on the child's mental state.

[Burris]

I would *not* feel good about my baby going through an abortion at such a tender age. But I don't actually feel good about many of the medical treatments my children have had to endure. Last week I pinned down my toddler while nurses inserted an IV into his tiny little arm. I cried, and the doctor told me she also cried when her baby had to have an IV. I don't feel good about that. I am glad that he was rehydrated after a monster stomach flu, but nothing else about the situation makes me happy. It makes me dizzy and nauseous just to think about it, to be honest. This would be a similar situation.

The situations aren't really equivalent, however: In the first example, the child is getting a vaccination that might well save her life. The \downside' of such a procedure is minimal. A brief period of pain. The remote chance of a negative reaction to the vaccine. The good of vaccination substantially outweighs the temporary discomfort of a needle.

But this ten-year-old is a rape victim. She has already been robbed of both choice and innocence. There's no going back. She'd need vaginal exams anyone, in case of an STI. What she needs is not another person making choices for her without her input – especially since every option in that situation is potentially a bad one.

Get her an abortion without her say or even her knowledge? Well one day she is going to find out – and she is likely going to be PISSED when she does.

Leave her pregnant without her input, as the so-called “pro-lifers†suggest, and she could suffer life-long physical damage without ever having been given sufficient information or even the pretence of a choice about it.

She has been pushed into an adult situation. She has already been robbed of choice once. My personal opinion is that now she needs information and, so far as she is able to make it, the opportunity to take back some control of her life and make her own choices in the matter (if at all possible).

Her doctor gave her information. The girl said she did not want the child. The doctor performed an abortion. As far as I'm concerned, that was the best possible outcome in a situation where every option is a bad option.

[Guest Anonymous]

The idea of keeping medical procedures a secret from the patient freaks me out for all sorts of reasons. Back in the day, pubescent female athletes in the DDR got told that their anabolic steroids were "vitamins", intersex kids got dragged in and out of hospitals for multiple "corrective" surgeries without being told what was up, and a fuck-load of ethically dubious medical trials worked in exactly the same way.

I know our hypothetical isn't quite like that, and I do understand emmiedahl's position, but the idea of a secret treatment just feels like more harm than good.

[pomology]

Maybe I was a with it 10 year old. I was sobbing at 11 because I couldn't legally get married for at least 7 more years which meant I couldnt have a baby for almost 8. :) I didn't know the specifics of sex, but I knew a man and a woman slept in the same bed and the woman had to have periods before she was old enough to get pregnant.

I am not saying 10 is not too young to be a mother, I am just saying that I don't think any age is so young she doesn't have the right to make that choice.

I could definitely see a perspective shift if I didn't believe abortion was killing a child. If I just saw it like a surgicial procedure I could see MORE where folks are coming from, but I still cannot imagine forcing it on my child. I believe in clear and open communication and that includes hard horrible sad dirty subjects.

Now, if the 10 year old was actually mentally incapable of understanding that definitely puts a lot more of the decision into her parents' hands. I cannot find anywhere where she was actually mentally incapable of making this decision. In this care it sounds like she told the doctor "A baby will grow inside of me, and I don't want that." or something to that effect.

So I imagine if your child had appendicitis you would give them a choice about whether they wanted their appendix out?

[valsa]

Which is why my original post on the matter specified "most 10 year olds". The 10 year old in the article already knows she's pregnant even if she doesn't fully understand it. At that point there is no reason to lie. And deciding that lying regardless of where the 10 year old is on the developmental spectrum, while an understandable initial reaction, is not going to be the best choice for most 10 year olds.

Not every ten year old, probably not even most ten year olds, would understand what's going on if they're pregnant. How much info is too much info? I would see nothing wrong with telling my 10 year old, "there's something in your belly that could hurt you, so the doctor is going to take it out", because it's true- whether we're talking about a pregnant 10 year old, a 10 year old with a tumor, or a 10 year old with appendicitis.

[Imora]

Just thinking out loud here... What if, hypothetically, you explain to the 10 year old the full circumstances and she says that she wants to keep the baby. She may not fully understand the consequences at that age but do you then 'force' an abortion on her?

ETA I somehow missed a whole page and a couple of previous posters discussed basically that, but more eloquently.

However the question remains unanswered I think.

If it was decided it would be much too dangerous for the child to carry a baby and this information was given to the 10 year old, who then decided to go ahead and have the baby - the parents would have the right to go against her wishes as they have the ultimate say. Would this be considered such a terrible thing to do?

[luckystone]

I posted on this earlier but it didn't come through. Just to say I hadn't really considered this scenario before - a child pregnant due to rape, and unlike this case, NOT wanting an abortion - would I make them have one? I have no idea. If I'm pro-choice and I think a woman's choice is a woman's choice then I have to let her say no - but is it a child's choice? She can't fully comprehend the decision she's making. On the other hand, I think forced abortions in all circumstances are terrible and horrible, even if you explain it away as being a necessary medical procedure (which it might be, but possibly wouldn't be as girls that young have delivered and breastfed etc. their babies). So I really don't know. I hope I never have to deccide. feel so sorry for everyone in this situation.

[Mela99]

[Maul the Koala]

Just thinking out loud here... What if, hypothetically, you explain to the 10 year old the full circumstances and she says that she wants to keep the baby. She may not fully understand the consequences at that age but do you then 'force' an abortion on her?

ETA I somehow missed a whole page and a couple of previous posters discussed basically that, but more eloquently.

However the question remains unanswered I think.

If it was decided it would be much too dangerous for the child to carry a baby and this information was given to the 10 year old, who then decided to go ahead and have the baby - the parents would have the right to go against her wishes as they have the ultimate say. Would this be considered such a terrible thing to do?

Do you sit down a 10 year old and give them the choice of having chemo or not? I worked in a hospital for years. While the child was involved in some decisions it wasn't until they started hitting 14 and up that they were involved in more serious decisions regarding their care. There's quite a bit of maturity difference between a 10 year old and a 14 year old for example. But I'm coming from a strictly medical perspective where the risk of pregnancy for a 10 year old vastly outweighs the wish to go ahead with a pregnancy.

[Imora]

Do you sit down a 10 year old and give them the choice of having chemo or not? I worked in a hospital for years. While the child was involved in some decisions it wasn't until they started hitting 14 and up that they were involved in more serious decisions regarding their care. There's quite a bit of maturity difference between a 10 year old and a 14 year old for example. But I'm coming from a strictly medical perspective where the risk of pregnancy for a 10 year old vastly outweighs the wish to go ahead with a pregnancy.

I guess that is sort of where my question was going to those who advocate choice for a 10 year old. I don't believe I would hesitate in telling them that 'this is what is going to happen' (and explained properly), not 'what do you want to happen?'.

[Lainey]

I think some people are bringing up some good points that make a case for telling the child (if they didn't already know, obviously), but I'm still not sure. When I was 10, the doctor my mother took me to for stomach problems sent me out of the room "for a cookie" so she could discuss something about me with my mom. I was pissed, because I was not stupid and I knew there was something going on, but my mother wouldn't tell me. Later (years later, I think), I found out that she thought I had cancer (I didn't--I don't really know why she thought that). My mom didn't want to tell me, because she didn't want to scare me. Would I have been scared? Hell yeah! This is different than a pregnancy, but I do get not wanting to tell a child. I also get that the child will know something's up, and probably be pissed. I would definitely tell them---later.

However, if the child knew, and didn't want an abortion, too damn bad--she's 10. Especially if she was raped. She's not fully capable of making that decision for herself. And yeah, if she didn't want an abortion, I'd seriously think that some pro-life propaganda had reached her somehow. I am pro-choice, and normally wouldn't force an abortion, but on a 10-year-old? Absolutely.

[Maul the Koala]

That's the thing too. A 10 year old very rarely has any concept of what raising a child/putting a child up for adoption entails. Can you realistically hand over full care of an infant to a 10 year old? As the parent of the ten year old, you are going to be fully responsible for your grandchild.

[2xx1xy1JD]

My child got her period when she was 8, and it was around the time that I read about the horrific 9 yr old pregnant with twins in Brazil story.

If, g-d forbid, my daughter had been in a position like that, I would have simply told her that the doctors found a "growth" in her tummy and had to operate to remove it.

Under the age of 12 of so, children aren't responsible for giving consent to their own medical care. They don't need every single detail, if it does nothing to prepare them for what they are experiencing and if it could only alarm them. In general, I'm pretty up front with my kids, and have allowed my daughter to decide for herself about some treatments (she made the decision to stop the precocious puberty treatment herself).

In this particular situation, though, we are dealing with a situation where (1) the abortion is clearly necessary from a medical POV, and (2) any abortion is still highly stigmatized by powerful elements in society. Since there is no logical or moral alternative to abortion in this circumstance, it's not a choice for the child to make. Explaining that she will have an abortion prior to the operation may, however, cause her to feel some sort of distress in that sort of insane anti-abortion environment. If she received more details after the surgery, at least she wouldn't see it as HER moral dilemna, but as a decision that was out of her hands.

[Burris]

In this particular situation, though, we are dealing with a situation where (1) the abortion is clearly necessary from a medical POV, and (2) any abortion is still highly stigmatized by powerful elements in society. Since there is no logical or moral alternative to abortion in this circumstance, it's not a choice for the child to make. Explaining that she will have an abortion prior to the operation may, however, cause her to feel some sort of distress in that sort of insane anti-abortion environment. If she received more details after the surgery, at least she wouldn't see it as HER moral dilemna, but as a decision that was out of her hands.

I understand where you're coming from, but I really disagree: The girl has already been forced into a part of adulthood that should have been years and years away from her yet. I would be terrified of adding to her feelings of helplessness by denying her a say in her own medical treatment (assuming she could demonstrate enough maturity and knowledge to understand the situation and the potential consequences of each option). The intellectual disability could complicate that, though I'm not sure to what degree in this case.

There is some merit to taking on the moral responsibility as a parent, sparing the child any of the guilt anti-choicers might heap on her for having “chosen†abortion. That actually makes a great deal of sense.

But much of the damage has already done. She was denied the right to chose her own sexual partner, instead having been violated in that regard by someone she should have been able to trust. Making a decision for her, without her input – or worse, lying to her outright – can only make the situation worse.

Like it or not, she has been pushed into an adult situation and – if she is capable - should have some right to make the decision on how to handle it. (I don't agree with this idea that a ten-year-old who decides to carry to term must necessarily have been influenced by anti-choice propaganda.)