Abortion on a 10yo rape victim? Lose your licence in KS

[Imora]

I understand where you're coming from, but I really disagree: The girl has already been forced into a part of adulthood that should have been years and years away from her yet. I would be terrified of adding to her feelings of helplessness by denying her a say in her own medical treatment (assuming she could demonstrate enough maturity and knowledge to understand the situation and the potential consequences of each option). The intellectual disability could complicate that, though I'm not sure to what degree in this case.

There is some merit to taking on the moral responsibility as a parent, sparing the child any of the guilt anti-choicers might heap on her for having “chosen†abortion. That actually makes a great deal of sense.

But much of the damage has already done. She was denied the right to chose her own sexual partner, instead having been violated in that regard by someone she should have been able to trust. Making a decision for her, without her input – or worse, lying to her outright – can only make the situation worse.

Like it or not, she has been pushed into an adult situation and – if she is capable - should have some right to make the decision on how to handle it. (I don't agree with this idea that a ten-year-old who decides to carry to term must necessarily have been influenced by anti-choice propaganda.)

I also disagree that it has to be a pro-life influence. I know 10 year old girls who just love babies and pick them up, hold them, play with them at every opportunity so it is not unrealistic that a 10 year old could have a maternal wish to keep the baby.

I'm also not an advocate for lying about it.

But, how could you say you should leave the choice with the 10 year old if it was dangerous for their health?

[Burris]

But, how could you say you should leave the choice with the 10 year old if it was dangerous for their health?

There's more than one kind of health at stake here, though: There's her physical well-being and her mental/emotional well-being.

The pregnancy would be dangerous – heavily monitored, but dangerous. And yes, I would be fairly forthright and graphic about the danger, even while pointing out that a) the fetus is not yet a baby, and b) she will have opportunities when she's older and better equipped to have babies on her own terms – that this would not be her only opportunity, and there's nothing wrong with her terminating the pregnancy now so that she might get to live and grow before having to face the prospect of motherhood with a mate of her own choosing.

The alternative, however, is just as bad albeit in a different way:

1) A parent could lie to the child and say she has a stomach ailment that surgery is meant to fix – a lie that, when it eventually came to light, would maul the child's confidence in her parents

2) Tell the truth; that she's pregnant and has absolutely no choice in the matter of abortion. Yes, that is entirely different from rape, but to a ten-year-old who has already been forced into one traumatic thing, she may not differentiate between being forced into sex and being forced to terminate the resulting pregnancy.

Don't mistake me: I'd make young motherhood sound like an unappealing prospect for my child, but I doubt I could either bring myself to be dishonest with her – such would merely delay the inevitable and cause a whole new set of problems later on – are declare without her input that she's going through yet another frightful thing about which she has absolutely no choice.

[Maul the Koala]

I'm not even sure where to begin on how to explain to a child the medical risk of pregnancy. That's a huge crash course in physiology and anatomy I can't even comprehend.

[emmiedahl]

From my perspective, a non-viable pregnancy in a child is a growth. That's all. How much fucking detail does a 10 year old need? As for her already having so many choices taken away, I agree that it sucks. But if she had perineal tears that needed repair after this horrific rape, I would insist that she get them. If she needed shots for some STI from the rape, I would insist that she get them. It's unfortunate that a child would ever be placed in this situation, but allowing her to destroy her body carrying a child who probably will not make it to viability is a complete non-option to me. The possible situations that could arise are not slow things--they are emergencies. Like an ectopic pregnancy in a mature female, the possibility of needing this baby OUT is close to 100%. The possibility of a continued pregnancy hurting my daughter in terms of growing, thriving, etc is pretty much 100%. The only decision in which the girl gets out with minimal physical consequences is abortion as soon as possible.

The situations aren't really equivalent, however: In the first example, the child is getting a vaccination that might well save her life. The \downside' of such a procedure is minimal. A brief period of pain. The remote chance of a negative reaction to the vaccine. The good of vaccination substantially outweighs the temporary discomfort of a needle.

Burris, the risks/benefits of the vaccine are identical to the risks of an early abortion, so yes. They are equivalent. Preventing a dangerous illness. For a little girl, pregnancy is a dangerous illness.

[Imora]

There's more than one kind of health at stake here, though: There's her physical well-being and her mental/emotional well-being.

The pregnancy would be dangerous – heavily monitored, but dangerous. And yes, I would be fairly forthright and graphic about the danger, even while pointing out that a) the fetus is not yet a baby, and b) she will have opportunities when she's older and better equipped to have babies on her own terms – that this would not be her only opportunity, and there's nothing wrong with her terminating the pregnancy now so that she might get to live and grow before having to face the prospect of motherhood with a mate of her own choosing.

The alternative, however, is just as bad albeit in a different way:

1) A parent could lie to the child and say she has a stomach ailment that surgery is meant to fix – a lie that, when it eventually came to light, would maul the child's confidence in her parents

2) Tell the truth; that she's pregnant and has absolutely no choice in the matter of abortion. Yes, that is entirely different from rape, but to a ten-year-old who has already been forced into one traumatic thing, she may not differentiate between being forced into sex and being forced to terminate the resulting pregnancy.

Don't mistake me: I'd make young motherhood sound like an unappealing prospect for my child, but I doubt I could either bring myself to be dishonest with her – such would merely delay the inevitable and cause a whole new set of problems later on – are declare without her input that she's going through yet another frightful thing about which she has absolutely no choice.

You certainly post very eloquently and I agree with most of what you said. I don't know if I really know enough about this - i.e. child psychology, trauma etc.

But I can say that I just don't think I could allow a ten year old the choice to put their own life in danger while I looked on. I might just say these are the facts, this is what is happening and deal with the aftermath as best as I could - with the benefit hopefully being my child is still alive with no long term health issues.

I just hope I am never in that situation and I feel very sorry for anybody who is. :(

[emmiedahl]

In this situation, the girl both needed and wanted the abortion. So thank God or good nature or whatever you believe in that this doctor stepped up. I am going to keep her in my thoughts and prayers. She should be seen as a hero. She *is* a hero. She made the bad go away, and now this girl can physically and emotionally heal to whatever extent is possible.

People like this inspire me as a future physician.

[Imora]

In this situation, the girl both needed and wanted the abortion. So thank God or good nature or whatever you believe in that this doctor stepped up. I am going to keep her in my thoughts and prayers. She should be seen as a hero. She *is* a hero. She made the bad go away, and now this girl can physically and emotionally heal to whatever extent is possible.

People like this inspire me as a future physician.

Yes.

[Burris]

From my perspective, a non-viable pregnancy in a child is a growth. That's all. How much fucking detail does a 10 year old need? As for her already having so many choices taken away, I agree that it sucks. But if she had perineal tears that needed repair after this horrific rape, I would insist that she get them. If she needed shots for some STI from the rape, I would insist that she get them. It's unfortunate that a child would ever be placed in this situation, but allowing her to destroy her body carrying a child who probably will not make it to viability is a complete non-option to me. The possible situations that could arise are not slow things--they are emergencies. Like an ectopic pregnancy in a mature female, the possibility of needing this baby OUT is close to 100%. The possibility of a continued pregnancy hurting my daughter in terms of growing, thriving, etc is pretty much 100%. The only decision in which the girl gets out with minimal physical consequences is abortion as soon as possible.

Burris, the risks/benefits of the vaccine are identical to the risks of an early abortion, so yes. They are equivalent. Preventing a dangerous illness. For a little girl, pregnancy is a dangerous illness.

I can't argue with you there: It's dangerous – but not in the same absolute way as an ectopic pregnancy or a ruptured appendix. A 10-year-old can still carry and bear. (I by no means think they should – but then again I think anyone who rapes a ten-year-old should be castrated.)

The problem for me is in weighing physical damage against psychological damage – both of which can be equally destructive, though in different ways.

To a ten-year-old pregnant girl, I would say...

-- 'Pregnancy at your age is dangerous. There is a chance the fetus could die. There is a chance you could die – and that would likely destroy us, your family.'

-- 'There is a chance, if both you and the fetus live, that this is the only child you may ever have because of the potential damage to your body.'

-- 'What you're carrying is not a baby yet, and I think you should have an abortion. You'll have other chances at motherhood later when you're grown and ready for it.'

-- 'Babies are hard to care for. They'll wake you at night. They need you all the time and for absolutely everything. When you might want to be out playing with your friends, you'll instead be back here feeding the child even though you're still a kid yourself.'

No lies. No super-gruesome details either. Just bare, stark facts.

It's not so much that I would feel bad if my child, upon learning later that I had signed her up for an abortion, berated me for lying about the nature of the surgery: I could live with that. But I would be afraid that all the intervening efforts for her to regain trust in the people around her would be undone if she were to make such a discovery.

She was raped be a relative. And then her parents lied to her.

A different problem would arise if I demand she have an abortion and sign the papers and put her in the hospital and force her to undergo a procedure she has absolutely no say in. That would only increase her feelings of powerlessness and alienation.

I'm not afraid to make decisions and take the pressure off a child. If it turned out poorly, I'd take full responsibility regardless of whether I left the initial choice up to her or not. But to take this choice from her, assuming she can understand its nature, after she has already been robbed of so much else...I don't think I could do that.

I would never intentionally berate a parent who chose to have her young daughter undergo an abortion without the girl's input (or knowledge). I can understand the impulse. I just don't think it's the choice I'd make for the reasons I specify above.

[Three and Done]

I have three daughters, and a niece. My girls are very bright, and my niece is average. (No offense intended to niece!) They are all 10 and up.

I do NOT believe that any of them would have had the intellectual capability at 10 years old to understand the demands of an infant (no matter how clearly and concisely it was explained), nor do I believe that they would be able to weigh the immediate risks, and potential life-long effects attempting to carry a child to term would have.

[Imora]

I can't argue with you there: It's dangerous – but not in the same absolute way as an ectopic pregnancy or a ruptured appendix. A 10-year-old can still carry and bear. (I by no means think they should – but then again I think anyone who rapes a ten-year-old should be castrated.)

The problem for me is in weighing physical damage against psychological damage – both of which can be equally destructive, though in different ways.

To a ten-year-old pregnant girl, I would say...

-- 'Pregnancy at your age is dangerous. There is a chance the fetus could die. There is a chance you could die – and that would likely destroy us, your family.'

-- 'There is a chance, if both you and the fetus live, that this is the only child you may ever have because of the potential damage to your body.'

-- 'What you're carrying is not a baby yet, and I think you should have an abortion. You'll have other chances at motherhood later when you're grown and ready for it.'

-- 'Babies are hard to care for. They'll wake you at night. They need you all the time and for absolutely everything. When you might want to be out playing with your friends, you'll instead be back here feeding the child even though you're still a kid yourself.'

No lies. No super-gruesome details either. Just bare, stark facts.

It's not so much that I would feel bad if my child, upon learning later that I had signed her up for an abortion, berated me for lying about the nature of the surgery: I could live with that. But I would be afraid that all the intervening efforts for her to regain trust in the people around her would be undone if she were to make such a discovery.

She was raped be a relative. And then her parents lied to her.

A different problem would arise if I demand she have an abortion and sign the papers and put her in the hospital and force her to undergo a procedure she has absolutely no say in. That would only increase her feelings of powerlessness and alienation.

I'm not afraid to make decisions and take the pressure off a child. If it turned out poorly, I'd take full responsibility regardless of whether I left the initial choice up to her or not. But to take this choice from her, assuming she can understand its nature, after she has already been robbed of so much else...I don't think I could do that.

I would never intentionally berate a parent who chose to have her young daughter undergo an abortion without the girl's input (or knowledge). I can understand the impulse. I just don't think it's the choice I'd make for the reasons I specify above.

But Burris, the point I made before this included

1. Not lying

2. Not giving a choice

So are these two things mutually exclusive?

I think you can give the bare facts and do the very best by the child but still not let them make the decision to do something with that much potential of harm. The stakes are too high.

[2xx1xy1JD]

If she was even 12, I may agree that she should be fully informed and involved in the decision.

At 10 or younger, though, children aren't responsible for their own medical decisions. Parents/guardians are. I don't think that children should be put in the position of making adult decisions. - they are at the stage where they still need responsible adults in their lives, who will act like adults and have their best interests in mind. I wouldn't let a 10 yo child refuse chemo, no matter how difficult it was.

Calling the pregnancy a growth isn't exactly a lie....it's just not the full truth. If it is medically necessary to have the operation, why does the child need to know exactly what type of growth it was? In a violently pro-life society, does a young child need images of fetuses like those displayed at protests to be going through her mind? Children who are below the age of consent for medical procedures aren't typically given complete information about any procedure - they don't hear 'anesthesia can kill you" before having an operation, for example.

[latraviata]

I have three daughters, and a niece. My girls are very bright, and my niece is average. (No offense intended to niece!) They are all 10 and up.

I do NOT believe that any of them would have had the intellectual capability at 10 years old to understand the demands of an infant (no matter how clearly and concisely it was explained), nor do I believe that they would be able to weigh the immediate risks, and potential life-long effects attempting to carry a child to term would have.

I agree nor does a 10 year old has the maturity and intellectual capability to make a decision of this magnitude.

Yes this child was forced into an adult situation and does that mean that she has to be forced into another adult situation and make an adult dicision? More of the same?

Sadly it is a choice between several evils, to me the least evil is to make the decision for her which means abortion.

Not just like that of course but with all the love and psychological support, which she needs anyway, her parents and/or the people close to her, can possibly give her.

Don't burden a 10 year old with such choices and decisions, it is far byond her competence.

[Pretzel]

Burris and Emmie, I wish I could put both your opinions in a blender and linguistically mix them up to what I think but I am just not as eloquent today.

I also agree with you, Latraviata and Three and Done, that the intellectual capability to make the decision in such a scenario is not there in -I'd assume almost every- 10-year-old. However, the intellectual capability to understand what's going on and why an abortion would be necessary is there, at least the ten-year-olds I know would totally get it. Therefore, I think a 10-year-old has the right to know what's going on. So Emmie, you're right,too. How much details does a child need? Probably not more than "There's this growth inside your belly and if we leave it there it can severely harm you", BUT eventually this person is growing into an adult has a right to know the truth.

I could never ever hush up something that life-changing. From all I've heard, and read, and empirically experienced: Hushing up can destroy lives more than any other thing. Silence numbs. Silence stirrs up anger. Silence distresses and depresses.

I have seen many families break to pieces because of someone keeping silent about something tragic/unsettling/unfortunate or plain evil that happened in the past.

[latraviata]

Burris and Emmie, I wish I could put both your opinions in a blender and linguistically mix them up to what I think but I am just not as eloquent today.

I also agree with you, Latraviata and Three and Done, that the intellectual capability to make the decision in such a scenario is not there in -I'd assume almost every- 10-year-old. However, the intellectual capability to understand what's going on and why an abortion would be necessary is there, at least the ten-year-olds I know would totally get it. Therefore, I think a 10-year-old has the right to know what's going on. So Emmie, you're right,too. How much details does a child need? Probably not more than "There's this growth inside your belly and if we leave it there it can severely harm you", BUT eventually this person is growing into an adult has a right to know the truth.

I could never ever hush up something that life-changing. From all I've heard, and read, and empirically experienced: Hushing up can destroy lives more than any other thing. Silence numbs. Silence stirrs up anger. Silence distresses and depresses.

I have seen many families break to pieces because of someone keeping silent about something tragic/unsettling/unfortunate or plain evil that happened in the past.

That would perfectly work for me. For now!

Either way, it remains a devastating situation, all the adults can do for her, is some sort of damage control.

[Deleted03]

Burris and Emmie, I wish I could put both your opinions in a blender and linguistically mix them up to what I think but I am just not as eloquent today.

I also agree with you, Latraviata and Three and Done, that the intellectual capability to make the decision in such a scenario is not there in -I'd assume almost every- 10-year-old. However, the intellectual capability to understand what's going on and why an abortion would be necessary is there, at least the ten-year-olds I know would totally get it. Therefore, I think a 10-year-old has the right to know what's going on. So Emmie, you're right,too. How much details does a child need? Probably not more than "There's this growth inside your belly and if we leave it there it can severely harm you", BUT eventually this person is growing into an adult has a right to know the truth.

I could never ever hush up something that life-changing. From all I've heard, and read, and empirically experienced: Hushing up can destroy lives more than any other thing. Silence numbs. Silence stirrs up anger. Silence distresses and depresses.

I have seen many families break to pieces because of someone keeping silent about something tragic/unsettling/unfortunate or plain evil that happened in the past.

+ 1

I haven't appreciated being lied to, but that's for things not regarding my bodily integrity (although I don't really trust anything now). But I've seen a friend go through the memories of rape as a very young child when she was 11 and her parents had to admit they hushed it up, did not even prosecute, all that based on a doctor's recommendation. This girls is messed up to say the least. I think truth is always better, and a 10 yo is not completely clueless.

Who knows what her uncle told her? (it's totally normal, but it's normal that your parents don't know about it, I need it, you enjoy it, etc, etc) What lies he told her? and now saying that the lying should go on makes me kind of sick. Even if she can't make her own decisions, it's still her body. Better tell her, and get psy help anyway because there was rape.

[Burris]

But Burris, the point I made before this included

1. Not lying

2. Not giving a choice

So are these two things mutually exclusive?

I think you can give the bare facts and do the very best by the child but still not let them make the decision to do something with that much potential of harm. The stakes are too high.

Well no, of course I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. The 'not lying/no choice' option would fall squarely into my scenario about signing her up for the abortion without her input.

It's possible, if the child weren't mature enough to decide, that I might sign her up for the abortion and then *never* tell her. But even that carries its own risks.

I admit it's all - and I hate to use the term, but - "academic" for me. I hope I'm never in the situation to actually find out what the hell I'd do if something like this happened.

I hasten to point out, however, that the ten-year-old in this situation knew she was pregnant and opted for the abortion, according to Dr. Neuhaus. Even if the girl didn't recognize the extent of the danger the pregnancy would cause, she did recognize the situation was wrong and wanted no further part in it.

[emmiedahl]

I admit, I have mixed feelings about lying. I am not sure whether I would do it or for how long. This is a situation that is serious as death. I would be thinking only of the crisis today, keeping my baby girl as safe and happy as possible today. I do not live in a country where abortion is a morally null medical procedure. My children encounter pro-life messages everyday and live in a culture where women who abort are baby killers and selfish beasts. That is a heavy burden to put on a little girl, who is incapable of the nuanced thought necessary to understand the situation.

I don't ever see myself in this situation, but neither did these parents I suppose.

[MonkeyMomma]

She has been pushed into an adult situation. She has already been robbed of choice once. My personal opinion is that now she needs information and, so far as she is able to make it, the opportunity to take back some control of her life and make her own choices in the matter (if at all possible).

Her doctor gave her information. The girl said she did not want the child. The doctor performed an abortion. As far as I'm concerned, that was the best possible outcome in a situation where every option is a bad option.

Thank you for formulated my thoughts perfectly - especially because we are not talking about a hypothetical here, but a real child. She already had her bodily autonomy and general trust of adults robbed of her. This good doctor, in what sounds like an age-appropriate way, gave some of it back to her.

[Austin]

My child would have an abortion. We parents make all sorts of medical decisions for our young children and we don't leave the "choice" up to them. My children had no choice whether they were going to receive vaccinations, have hernia surgery, have ear surgery, and the like. We explained it to them with the facts that we thought they could understand and did what was best for them. I see no difference between this and any other medical decision to be made for one's child.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I admit, I have mixed feelings about lying. I am not sure whether I would do it or for how long. This is a situation that is serious as death. I would be thinking only of the crisis today, keeping my baby girl as safe and happy as possible today. I do not live in a country where abortion is a morally null medical procedure. My children encounter pro-life messages everyday and live in a culture where women who abort are baby killers and selfish beasts. That is a heavy burden to put on a little girl, who is incapable of the nuanced thought necessary to understand the situation.

I don't ever see myself in this situation, but neither did these parents I suppose.

While I would be everything that I reasonable could do to protect my child, I am very aware that is has been physically possible for her to become pregnant since she turned 8. The idea terrifies me, but I do see it as a possibility.

[latraviata]

My child would have an abortion. We parents make all sorts of medical decisions for our young children and we don't leave the "choice" up to them. My children had no choice whether they were going to receive vaccinations, have hernia surgery, have ear surgery, and the like. We explained it to them with the facts that we thought they could understand and did what was best for them. I see no difference between this and any other medical decision to be made for one's child.

This

[latraviata]

I admit, I have mixed feelings about lying. I am not sure whether I would do it or for how long. This is a situation that is serious as death. I would be thinking only of the crisis today, keeping my baby girl as safe and happy as possible today. I do not live in a country where abortion is a morally null medical procedure. My children encounter pro-life messages everyday and live in a culture where women who abort are baby killers and selfish beasts. That is a heavy burden to put on a little girl, who is incapable of the nuanced thought necessary to understand the situation.

I don't ever see myself in this situation, but neither did these parents I suppose.

I suppose that is true. In this part of the world, this situation is entirely different.

[Pretzel]

I suppose that is true. In this part of the world, this situation is entirely different.

Yeah, this. I'm like this -> :shock: whenever I hear that many Americans vote because of things like abortion. It's many pro-lifers' and fundies' hot button issue and I assume a lot of Europeans (me included) can't fathom that they have nothing more substantial to worry about. I guess from a European perspective it's just hard to understand.

Edited for riffles and phrasing.

[latraviata]

Yeah, this. I'm like this -> :shock: whenever I hear that many Americans vote because of things like abortion. It's many pro-lifers' and fundies' hot button issue and I just can't fathom that they have nothing more substantial to worry about. I guess from a European perspective that is hard to understand.

Same here.

[2xx1xy1JD]

Society context is key here. In the Brazil case, Catholic officials were basically making a public statement that the mother was going straight to hell for arranging a life-saving operation for her 9 yr old daughter, and they weren't prepared to say the same thing about the bastard that raped her. In Kansas, Dr. Tiller was murdered for performing later-term, usually medically necessary abortions, and you have people with power that can actually argue that a developmentally delayed 10 yr old should be forced to continue a pregnancy. I can't imagine the trauma for a young girl being first violated sexually, and then told that she must continue to suffer even if her life is threatened.