And Joanne falls even deeper down the rabbit hole...

[pixydust]

Does she realise how gross "submitting to a headship" and "seeking correction" sounds?

In any non fundie church they would also be scandalised if she tried to submit to an unrelated man.

I think that in any other fundie church they would be pretty damn scandalized, too! Seriously, there are men that she is not related to living in the house and she is submitting to them? I can't think of any fundie who would approve!

[Koala]

It's one of the strangest situations I've ever seen.

[thoughtful]

Seriously, there are men that she is not related to living in the house and she is submitting to them? I can't think of any fundie who would approve!

Are there men living in her house, other than her son? Did I miss something in this thread?

[lilith]

I do worry about what will happen when one of these men she feels under the authority of decides that God wants him or his son to marry her teenage daughter. Will she give Brianna a choice in the matter? Will she even ask herself if it's for the best? Or will she just hand over her daughter, cause any decision she would make would be tainted by evil womanly emotion anyway?

[pixydust]

Joanne, if you're still hanging around I have a couple of questions for you. Who told you that your son can't drive alone or live alone? Did a Dr, therapist, or social worker help with this decision? Is there a plan in place to help him achieve these things? My sister is schizophrenic and she will never be able to drive, run her errands alone, live alone, or even take a city bus by herself but these are things that her therapist and my mother are helping her with. She has greatly improved while working on these goals (two years ago she couldn't take a walk further than a block by herself. Today she took an hour long walk, alone! She now walks to her therapy appointments in the downtown area of our city, understands the rules of traffic and that they are there for safety, and she loves this independence.)

Everyone, no matter what the problem, can improve at least a little. i hope that your son has some goals and is working towards them.

[pixydust]

Are there men living in her house, other than her son? Did I miss something in this thread?

Quote:

One again "anon" my son is not 19. You have not given me scripture references that say 19 is an adult nor have you give me references that say I must submit to my son once he is an adult (whatever age that might be according to the bible). I"m open to learn if you can provide the references. I actually spoke with a brother about this last evening and he too could not come up with a specific age like you have, that is why I am asking for scripture references.

I choose to submit to the brothers here and they are IN my home, not outside of it.

I think she says it elsewhere, too, that there are several men from the church that live in this house. I'm guessing that the house is owned by the church, and that is why they are all there.

[thoughtful]

I think she says it elsewhere, too, that there are several men from the church that live in this house. I'm guessing that the house is owned by the church, and that is why they are all there.

Thanks, pixydust -- I had completely missed that.

[Lala29]

I think she says it elsewhere, too, that there are several men from the church that live in this house. I'm guessing that the house is owned by the church, and that is why they are all there.

Again, Joanne, I ask how you can live among unrelated men? How is that not sinful?

Also, is not being in such close contact with unrelated men sinful? To even be considering submitting to unrelated men?

[Funky Chicken]

So you would say that someone who is a day before their 19th birthday isn't over 18?

And was she the one who didn't want to look up hard words or study the deep meanings of the Bible in the last thread she came to?

I think fractions are not a Biblical concept. Whole numbers only!

[Petronella7]

Ok, that's it, I have GOT to drop into Monett and see this "church" that breaks up families so that the women and girls can wear bedsheets on their heads and eat week-old slop in the basement, while the men and boys get to stand around the street holding insane rambling signs and call it "street preaching". Oh and then everybody, men and women, single and married, get to pile into one communal house together. :shock:

How is this not a cult?

[emmiedahl]

The Bible explicitly allows divorce and remarriage, but that is not good enough for Joanne. She needed to ditch the husband because she could not submit to him *and* join a cult.

The over 18 thing is just more evasiveness and thinly veiled lies, as is the bullshit about how she said submission but really meant just asking for advice.

Joanne, I find your statements about "kids these days" and the overly emotional women to be both incorrect and offensive. In the real world, children who behave well are doing so because they have a choice. Your children have no choices, they cannot make their own decisions because you have hobbled them and boxed them in. Stop patting yourself on the back already; your children are just as loyal and obedient as North Koreans, and for the exact same reason.

[NerdyHil]

Okay, finally just skulked around the blog of the church(and I use that term loosely) that Joanne belongs to, and yeah, it's so a cult. Pure and simple, cult. I'm glad they try and do good work with and orphanage in India, but that doesn't make up for the vile, sexist ideals this group supports. :angry-steamingears:

[Sola]

Over 18 would be 19 or older.

Joanne, I noticed you said your son is autistic. I did wonder that myself after reading about him on your blog. But anyway, you come across as quite pedantic and literalist yourself, both in your blog and on here. Have you yourself ever been assessed or considered having yourself assessed for autism?

[formergothardite]

Over 18 means over 18. When my son turns 19 he'll be over 18. I am not sure why you think this is illogical?

Yes, I was the one who said all the theology confuses me. Someone made a very funny picture with my quote and I really liked that picture (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=8240&start=240). Theology does confuse me. Where are all those big terms in the bible? I challenge you to find them. Can't we [speaking to those who care] just read the bible and believe what it says? It's not that complicated. That was my point when I said all that theology and all those big words confuse me. I don't understand how someone can write hundreds of pages to explain one little verse. It seems to me the only reason why they do this is to explain why it does not mean what it says. God is not out to trick us all. The apostles and disciples didn't write letters to try and confuse people. They wrote letters to clear things up. Yet some how, by the use of theology, the water gets muddier and muddier. And when one just simply looks at the teachings of Christ and actually believes what he says, they are labeled a heretic. Certainly Christ did not actually mean what he said right?! He was here to trick us all and confuse is, right?! Nonsense.

But it is. Why do you think there are so many denominations of Christians? Nobody can agree with what the Bible is actually saying. That is why you need to look past the translated words to the actual words that were written and then the culture they were written in. And you also should look at how the Bible was put together, the books that were almost included and were dumped at the last moment. It isn't that simple. If it were Christianity would be a lot easier to understand.

And if you are just going to go by exactly what Jesus said, then I don't think he said anything about women submitting to their husbands or leaving their second husband. Or gay people. Or homeschooling. Or headcovering. Or abortion. Or lots of things.

[Kitchen Princess]

I had a chance to have a long talk with my teenager today while we drove to Tulsa to see Tenacious D. My son was out on Dickson Street in Fayetteville last night, which is the bar district near the U of Arkansas.

He ran into some preachers with big signs. They're there all the time. My boy seemed to just take it as a challenge, and he walked up to one of them (the younger one) and asked if he could talk to him. My son said the guy was really standoffish but eventually he got the guy to talk in normal terms, though he was really hesitant to tell my son his name. My son just charmed it out of him.

My boy kept asking questions and the other guy was really cagey, and trying to turn the conversation around. He told me that the guy told him they were from Missouri, about 3 hours away. The guy drinks, but he doesn't get drunk. Son had to charm his age out of him (23). I asked what the signs said and they said stuff about getting married after a divorce was adultery.

:::light bulb moment::: I asked, "Was it Monett, MO?" YES! It was!!!

Joanne, anyone from your church get asked on Friday night if they liked cupcakes?

[Kitchen Princess]

By the way, Joanne, my son is the same age as yours. (He wasn't drinking. He was just listening to bands in the bars that allow under-21s. Oh, and getting to know a 23 yo zealot--I won't post either name.)

[Effie]

This is hard for many to understand because sadly the accepted norm today is to have selfish, rebellious children. I look back to how I was when I was their age ... selfish and rebellious ... and I am so sad for all I put my dad through. Even though I was very close with my dad, I still was very disrespectful. I am thankful I have lived long enough to tell him I am sorry for being such a jerk of a daughter in the past.

Being rebellious isn't something bad. Being able to stand up for yourself is a great quality to have in our society. If you can't, you will get used by people only because you can't say "no". In my middle 20s, I still struggle with this. It still happens that I accept to do things I don't feel comfortable doing. From my own experience, I would say that a little rebellion in the childhood is healthy.

[valsa]

Joanne, anyone from your church get asked on Friday night if they liked cupcakes?

With a line like that, maybe he was cagey because he thought your son was hitting on him :twisted:

[FireIsCatching89]

I had a chance to have a long talk with my teenager today while we drove to Tulsa to see Tenacious D. My son was out on Dickson Street in Fayetteville last night, which is the bar district near the U of Arkansas.

He ran into some preachers with big signs. They're there all the time. My boy seemed to just take it as a challenge, and he walked up to one of them (the younger one) and asked if he could talk to him. My son said the guy was really standoffish but eventually he got the guy to talk in normal terms, though he was really hesitant to tell my son his name. My son just charmed it out of him.

My boy kept asking questions and the other guy was really cagey, and trying to turn the conversation around. He told me that the guy told him they were from Missouri, about 3 hours away. The guy drinks, but he doesn't get drunk. Son had to charm his age out of him (23). I asked what the signs said and they said stuff about getting married after a divorce was adultery.

:::light bulb moment::: I asked, "Was it Monett, MO?" YES! It was!!!

Joanne, anyone from your church get asked on Friday night if they liked cupcakes?

Your son sounds awesome, Creaky Steel. That is all. He'll make an awesome headship someday. ;)

[rollmeover]

Your son sounds awesome, Creaky Steel. That is all. He'll make an awesome headship someday. ;)

In fact, Creaky Steel, I would like to submit to your son's headship. I like cupcakes and I like to be rebuked and corrected by random men, because I need boundaries and can't manage to give them to myself because I am just an emotional little woman. I guess you don't allow him to drive or keep any money so us getting together for face to face rebuking could be hard but maybe we could do it on line?

[pixydust]

I had a chance to have a long talk with my teenager today while we drove to Tulsa to see Tenacious D. My son was out on Dickson Street in Fayetteville last night, which is the bar district near the U of Arkansas.

He ran into some preachers with big signs. They're there all the time. My boy seemed to just take it as a challenge, and he walked up to one of them (the younger one) and asked if he could talk to him. My son said the guy was really standoffish but eventually he got the guy to talk in normal terms, though he was really hesitant to tell my son his name. My son just charmed it out of him.

My boy kept asking questions and the other guy was really cagey, and trying to turn the conversation around. He told me that the guy told him they were from Missouri, about 3 hours away. The guy drinks, but he doesn't get drunk. Son had to charm his age out of him (23). I asked what the signs said and they said stuff about getting married after a divorce was adultery.

:::light bulb moment::: I asked, "Was it Monett, MO?" YES! It was!!!

Joanne, anyone from your church get asked on Friday night if they liked cupcakes?

Creaky Steel, I love your son, in a proud FJ momma kind of way!

[samithemage]

Theology does confuse me. Where are all those big terms in the bible? I challenge you to find them. Can't we [speaking to those who care] just read the bible and believe what it says? It's not that complicated. That was my point when I said all that theology and all those big words confuse me. I don't understand how someone can write hundreds of pages to explain one little verse. It seems to me the only reason why they do this is to explain why it does not mean what it says. God is not out to trick us all. The apostles and disciples didn't write letters to try and confuse people. They wrote letters to clear things up. Yet some how, by the use of theology, the water gets muddier and muddier. And when one just simply looks at the teachings of Christ and actually believes what he says, they are labeled a heretic. Certainly Christ did not actually mean what he said right?! He was here to trick us all and confuse is, right?! Nonsense.

Are you reading the original texts of the Bible and do you fluently understand languages such as Aramaic, ancient Greek, etc. If not, you are not reading the original text. You are reading someone's translation of someone else's translation of someone else's translation. A translation that probably went through several different languages to get to English. Try going to a couple of different online translation websites and put in a few bible verses. Then translate them from English to Hindi to say Russian or Chinese or Arabic or whatever combination you feel like and back to English and tell me if you get anything remotely reasonable. Translation is tricky even when dealing with living languages with speakers with whom you can discuss nuances. It becomes even more difficult when you're talking about incomplete ancient manuscripts. This is why there isn't a consensus. Jesus didn't come down and write everything he wanted us to do in easy to understand contemporary English. There are significant disagreements about the accuracy of various translations. It's not a trick to confuse you. It's people trying to parse the meaning of ancient dialects.

[formergothardite]

Two passages of Scripture never preached on in Fundamentalist congregations.

Deuteronomy 24:1-2

24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.

24:2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

Ezra 10:2-3

2 And Shechaniah the son of Jehiel, one of the sons of Elam, answered and said unto Ezra, We have trespassed against our God, and have taken strange wives of the people of the land: yet now there is hope in Israel concerning this thing.

3 Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those that tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law.

But, sure sure, "God hates divorce." (You know what? Divorced people kind of hate divorce,too. Physicians hate amputating diabetic toes, too, but it's better than letting the patient die.)

Noticed Joanne didn't want to address these verses. Not surprised.

[Kitchen Princess]

My son's a feminist and would be totally turned off by all these offers. lol.

[Kitchen Princess]

With a line like that, maybe he was cagey because he thought your son was hitting on him :twisted:

That crossed my mind when he was telling me the story! The guy probably thought he was a "homo" just because he was taking such an interest. By the way, I know the preacher's name, but I don't want to say it online without good reason.