And Joanne falls even deeper down the rabbit hole...

[waterlily]

Yes, I was way too harsh in my post but I was in a pissy mood that day & her blog just irritates me.

[deelaem]

I wrote this not only directed towards Joanne but to the other fundies out there that feel the need to push their agenda on me. I hope my words conveyed the message I am trying to get across. I posted this in response to her recent blog post. She is so frustrating to read & so damn negative!! I must have proofread this 10 times before being satisfied with it. I hope it reads well. ;)

:angry-soapbox: :angry-cussingblack:

Your life is so depressing. Infact, you hate life. You do not seem like you have JOY in your heart. Your posts are so unhappy. It must suck to sit in your church basement all day & night. You must be terribly lonely. No one to talk to but the other brainwashed women at your church.

It is a shame that you have been brainwashed by a bunch of women haters who took advantage of you in a vulnerable state early on. It is a shame that you have been brainwashed by an outdated book of myths you claim to read & live by. I do not think that you read the book as you claim. At least not as deeply & passionately as you claim. I doubt that you even meditate on the words. I doubt you even stop & ask yourself how relevant is this to now?

I think you have some “brothers†in the church who spoon feeds what information they want you to know. That is one way they keep

you ignorant & under their rule. Perhaps you do read the book but I think you like to cherry pick the verses that you want to use as your life purpose. Maybe it makes you feel better for the decisions you have made however right or wrong. I think guilt has a big part in it too. It is easy to justify everything by throwing Satan & Jesus into it. Everything you did in the past was Satan's hand & everything now is Jesus. Much like how you look at the world! I think you blog these twisted views of yours because you feel horrible about yourself. Speaking to the masses as you do makes you appear knowledgeable & important. However, it really makes you look foolish. Your fans eat your words hook, line, & sinker without actually researching on their own. You should try researching before you blog & while you are at it try to keep an open mind as well. You may actually learn something. Perhaps apply it to your life? This is not sinning & it will not send you straight to hell.

I do feel for your children. Poor things. They have been brainwashed into thinking this is how life should be. I hope someday they get a clue. Keeping your kids completely closed off from the world while you push your unbiblical agenda on them is not healthy. The world is not all sinful & evil. There are some good & bad people/things but not all is demonic. You have some past issues to deal with. It appears that you have never resolved them. You just keep it all in. Again, not healthy. I think those issues are brewing at the surface wanting to be let loose. No amount of praying & crying out to Jesus alone is going to solve them 100%. You are fooling yourself if you think or believe that will change or solve any issues. Faith is good (even prayer) but there comes a time when you may need some extra help. I will stress again that you will not go to hell if you accept. You are not sinning if you ask or take help.

No matter what I say (or anyone else for that matter) I feel it is too late for you although you could change if you wanted to-but you would have to want to. Sadly, at this moment you do not. Can there be any gray areas or middle ground with you? Does everything need to be black or white? Do you have a brain? Can you think for yourself? Can you make decisions alone? Guess what! You do not need a man to do any of these things. God already gave you a brain. Is that not amazing? Women are not to be second class citizens. You could be a capable women in charge of her life. Yet you allow a book written by human fallible men to dictate what a woman should be. They were misogynists. What these men have always wanted a woman to be is highly submissive in all things. A doormat who stuffs everything inside. A slave at their beck & call for their selfish wants & needs. All by them claiming/justifying that “God†says it in a book written by men. It is dehumanizing to women everywhere.

Christian men can not stand a self confident woman. They are so threatened by it. They want meek breeding vessels where a woman's role in life is how many arrows she can bring forth into this Satan filled world. All for Christ's army of light! All for the glory of God. We are more than baby machines. Men have a need to show everyone that men are made to rule & dominate women. All because a book says so. Where is the intelligence in that? A book that does not prove that God wrote it. Man did. It was written thousands of years ago in a different time. In a place when humans had a much narrower way of thinking what the world meant to them.

Jesus preached love not hate. You are full of contradictions & twist scripture to suit your needs. You are SO hateful of everything & everyone! You dress & act in a way that does not honor God. It brings unwanted attention to yourself. You crave this & believe you are being holy & righteous. You are not. You do NOT practice any of the things Jesus said to do. Your religion flavor is void of using the critical & logical thinking skills that God gave you. That is the problem with people like you. Tell me Joanne what is it like on your throne turning your nose up at the rest of us mere humans? I forgot that you are an ultra special snowflake. It is bad that no one is allowed to disagree with because you are always a correct Christ follower!

No, I am not an evil lesbian, feminist, heathen, atheist, or agnostic because I bet that is what you were thinking. As much as you feel a need to pass tracts or spread the gospel, I too feel a need to spread the word on the dangers of fanatical “Christians†like you. I have no problem doing this because I have in the past lived a fundie lifestyle. I know the amount of brainwashing involved to keep women in line in these circles.

I will pray for you.

Leah

Wow. I guess all this anger is from you being a former fundie. I get it, fundieism pisses me off too. But if you're so against they way they are, and you know what it's like, why are you so down on them? They're just as trapped as you once were. Maybe your anger is better directed towards the patriarchs that perpetuate this life.

And not sure if you meant it this way, but lesbians, feminist, heathens, atheists and agnostics are NOT evil.

[holierthanyou]

I don't agree with Joanne AT ALL, but I do still feel sorry for her (feeling sorry for her doesn't mean I think how she is raising her children is "ok", it means I feel sorry for her too). To be honest, waterlily/leah, I read way more anger that sounded like loathing/hatred in your letter to her than I have in most of her blog posts.

[Angri-la]

I wrote this not only directed towards Joanne but to the other fundies out there that feel the need to push their agenda on me. I hope my words conveyed the message I am trying to get across. I posted this in response to her recent blog post. She is so frustrating to read & so damn negative!! I must have proofread this 10 times before being satisfied with it. I hope it reads well. ;)

:angry-soapbox: :angry-cussingblack:

Your life is so depressing. Infact, you hate life. You do not seem like you have JOY in your heart. Your posts are so unhappy. It must suck to sit in your church basement all day & night. You must be terribly lonely. No one to talk to but the other brainwashed women at your church.

.

I will pray for you.

Leah

I snipped it down, because it needs to be.

Deelam already address your unfortunate wording .

I could have written this teens of years ago. I can feel your anger coming through, and I agree with some of your points, like the above, they have no JOY in their hearts and lives, it seems. But, hon, deelam is right (and I say that most, but not all of the time): you are misplacing your anger on the women. I get that; it hurts more when there is woman on woman antipathy. It hurts me more to be betrayed by a woman than a man, because I feel like we need to stick together and help lift each other up, and put the blame of Patriarchal Dominionism squarely where it belongs: On the patriarchs. Yes, the women are complicit, but many of them do not have a choice, and even their men see them as "wombfoot soldiers". You won't change anyone's minds on their blogs; they enjoy those comments, as it makes them feel persecuted, which is like champagne to them, except better, because it doesn't have evil alcohol in it. Don't you dare mention wine and Jesus. It was grape juice, people.

I would encourage you to post here and not on fundie blogs/boards. I can see that your heart is in the right place, and you need to heal, but it would be better to do so in a community of woman who are sympathetic or empathetic to what you are going through. Your comment on the blog is going to fall on deaf ears, even thou

Cradling you Bodyguard style,

Angri-la

[joannesmith]

Being rebellious isn't something bad. Being able to stand up for yourself is a great quality to have in our society. If you can't, you will get used by people only because you can't say "no". In my middle 20s, I still struggle with this. It still happens that I accept to do things I don't feel comfortable doing. From my own experience, I would say that a little rebellion in the childhood is healthy.

A little rebellion is healthy? I'm not sure. I guess I'd have to have a few clear exampls of what you mean there.

The rebellion I had towards my dad was bad. Plain and simple. While he was not perfect himself, he still did the best he knew how to raise me and my brother after my mom left when we were really little. Can you imagine? A young man alone raising two children? HARD worker, alcoholic (but a nice one ... the only nice alcoholic I've ever met actually; he no longer drinks though), mental struggles, illness, etc. I put him through A LOT. Yes, I was a big jerk to him. And I knew I was at the time but I was too prideful to stop. I have the most love and deep respect for my dad. Even though he thinks I am a nut in many ways, he still tolerates me :) Regardless of our huge differences (he's an atheist) we are in close contact and see each other as often as possible. If I could post a picture on here, I'd share one of him. Maybe I'll just post a few on my blog soon.

[FundiesInMyFamily]

You just can't get enough, can you Joanne?

[Koala]

Joanne, if your family has a history of mental illness you might want to consider having yourself evaluated. Some of the decisions you are making are very extreme, not to mention unhealthy. It might not seem that way to you, but if your thinking is disordered, it probably wouldn't.

Your desire to control food/food intake, your extreme standards of "modesty", your willingness to leave a happy relationship, and your eagerness to "submit" to and be corrected by the men from your church are all huge red flags to me personally.

Also, you might want to consider the idea that your father might not necessarily want you posting pictures of him here, even if you could figure out how to. Number 1, there wouldn't be much purpose to it, number 2, he seems (from what you've said) to be aware that some of your ideas are a little out there. He might not want his face plastered on a snark board that you are a member of.

[Koala]

One more question. Do you read here frequently Joanne? It's odd how you just popped up the minute this thread was resurrected. If the thread had just originated I would think it was because of the increase in blog traffic, but this thread is pretty old.

[deelaem]

I snipped it down, because it needs to be.

Deelam already address your unfortunate wording .

I could have written this teens of years ago. I can feel your anger coming through, and I agree with some of your points, like the above, they have no JOY in their hearts and lives, it seems. But, hon, deelam is right (and I say that most, but not all of the time): you are misplacing your anger on the women. I get that; it hurts more when there is woman on woman antipathy. It hurts me more to be betrayed by a woman than a man, because I feel like we need to stick together and help lift each other up, and put the blame of Patriarchal Dominionism squarely where it belongs: On the patriarchs. Yes, the women are complicit, but many of them do not have a choice, and even their men see them as "wombfoot soldiers". You won't change anyone's minds on their blogs; they enjoy those comments, as it makes them feel persecuted, which is like champagne to them, except better, because it doesn't have evil alcohol in it. Don't you dare mention wine and Jesus. It was grape juice, people.

I would encourage you to post here and not on fundie blogs/boards. I can see that your heart is in the right place, and you need to heal, but it would be better to do so in a community of woman who are sympathetic or empathetic to what you are going through. Your comment on the blog is going to fall on deaf ears, even thou

Cradling you Bodyguard style,

Angri-la

Thank you for elaborating, I agree with all of this. I did have a good laugh over your caveat above, however. :lol:

[Witsec7]

Some examples of healthy youthful rebellion for Joanne. FJ feel free to add you examples since I'm only on my first cup of espresso.

Resisting parental dress codes, dying ones hair, rejecting the established religious and political values in a family, listening to music their parents don't like, resisting and violating established curfews set by the family, dressing as a means of expressing themselves, becoming involved in political activities or expressing political opinions that differ from their parents and experimenting with 'vulgar' language.

[Burris]

You are welcome to come see for yourself any time. Our church address is 809 8th Street, Monett, MO 65708. Sunday service starts at about 10am but you are welcome any day of the week and skip church service.

Please don't be scared for us. Just a quick visit with my children (and me if you'd like) would calm all your fears. Ask anyone in town or in the surrounding areas. My children are a joy and a blessing to have around :)

Love, j

Oh madam; the things you've done to yourself (assuming you are actually the person we're discussing here)...

I don't even know where to begin in charting the mistakes. :(

You already have a head. It's on your shoulders. Perhaps you should work at improving yourself, that you might be able to trust your own judgment (even as did Deborah, Abigail, Ruth, and the woman in Proverbs 31).

Unfortunately, I don't think you'll listen to me, so wedded are you to the idea that you need someone else's head to do your thinking.

[pixydust]

Some examples of healthy youthful rebellion for Joanne. FJ feel free to add you examples since I'm only on my first cup of espresso.

Resisting parental dress codes, dying ones hair, rejecting the established religious and political values in a family, listening to music their parents don't like, resisting and violating established curfews set by the family, dressing as a means of expressing themselves, becoming involved in political activities or expressing political opinions that differ from their parents and experimenting with 'vulgar' language.

I'll add!

Establishing your own eating habits (becoming a veggie/vegan or meat eater if raised veg), reading things that are against the family values, making friends on your own (with your own values as to what makes a good friend), finding hobbies that your parents would discourage.

Rebelling is important in deciding who you are and what you believe in. I did it, my husband did it (late....after high school), and I expect my kids to do it.

[Sola]

Joanne, if your family has a history of mental illness you might want to consider having yourself evaluated. Some of the decisions you are making are very extreme, not to mention unhealthy. It might not seem that way to you, but if your thinking is disordered, it probably wouldn't.

Your desire to control food/food intake, your extreme standards of "modesty", your willingness to leave a happy relationship, and your eagerness to "submit" to and be corrected by the men from your church are all huge red flags to me personally.

Also, you might want to consider the idea that your father might not necessarily want you posting pictures of him here, even if you could figure out how to. Number 1, there wouldn't be much purpose to it, number 2, he seems (from what you've said) to be aware that some of your ideas are a little out there. He might not want his face plastered on a snark board that you are a member of.

Not mental illness, but it raises a whole load of red flags for me with regard to autistic spectrum disorders. Before Joanne even mentioned that her son was on the spectrum she had me wondering by the tone of her writings and her lifestyle.

Joanne, I asked before but you probably missed it (and I hope you are still around and see this), have you ever had yourself evaluated for ASDs. You seem very Aspergers to me. I work in that field and although I do not wish to internet diagnose you (very unprofessional), I see enough there that raises red flags for me.

[freejoytoo]

Children aren't and shouldn't be carbon copies of their parents. Rebellion is part of discovering who you are.

[thoughtful]

Some examples of healthy youthful rebellion for Joanne. FJ feel free to add you examples since I'm only on my first cup of espresso.

Resisting parental dress codes, dying ones hair, rejecting the established religious and political values in a family, listening to music their parents don't like, resisting and violating established curfews set by the family, dressing as a means of expressing themselves, becoming involved in political activities or expressing political opinions that differ from their parents and experimenting with 'vulgar' language.

Studying subjects that don't interest your parents, taking up activities that they don't see as valuable, considering (or even going into!) a field that baffles them.

I'm speaking as a musician and animal-lover who seemed to have sprung fully-formed from the earth with those interests and abilities. :lol: My parents were concerned about whether or not I'd be able to make a living, but saw my passion and supported me.

ETA -- by nature, I was so not a rebel. But my desire to do these things was so powerful, and part of me from so early on, that it was important to me.

My "rebellion" took the form of talking about these things with my parents, pursuing the activities, working hard, helping others (I was the go-to dog-sitter for several neighbors, for free), excitedly but politely asking for music lessons when I was very young, etc.

"Rebellion" need not be evil, full of yelling and fighting -- it can be quite peaceful.

[synchroswimr]

I married a man my parents thought was not ambitious enough. 10 years later, we're still happily married and he is doing very well working for a large computer company in silicon valley.

I also did my undergrad work in Chemistry. My mother thought I should study linguistics. I am very happy and successful with my science. I want to work in a field my parents don't understand. While not terribly successful (I'm unemployed and working on a Ph.D), I love the volunteering I do in my field and can't wait to find a job

[emmiedahl]

A little rebellion is healthy? I'm not sure. I guess I'd have to have a few clear exampls of what you mean there.

The rebellion I had towards my dad was bad. Plain and simple. While he was not perfect himself, he still did the best he knew how to raise me and my brother after my mom left when we were really little. Can you imagine? A young man alone raising two children? HARD worker, alcoholic (but a nice one ... the only nice alcoholic I've ever met actually; he no longer drinks though), mental struggles, illness, etc. I put him through A LOT. Yes, I was a big jerk to him. And I knew I was at the time but I was too prideful to stop. I have the most love and deep respect for my dad. Even though he thinks I am a nut in many ways, he still tolerates me :) Regardless of our huge differences (he's an atheist) we are in close contact and see each other as often as possible. If I could post a picture on here, I'd share one of him. Maybe I'll just post a few on my blog soon.

My children are not selfish at all and I resent that Joanne needs to make herself feel better by putting down tens of thousands of innocent people. Who would Jesus lie about, Joanne?

In your case, the rebellion helped you become who you are today, which is a very fucked up person in my opinion but I assume you feel it is a good thing?

Rebellion is not bad unless you are doing bad things to rebel. The rebellion itself is not the issue. Childhood and teenaged rebellion is very healthy. We all have visions of what we want our children to be, and we think we know best the kind of person they are. Rebellion is the act of a person rejecting those notions to make space for the type of person they want and need to be. In your case, you may have done some bad things in rebellion, but those are the problems--not the rebellion. If you give your children ways of accomplishing this very necessary task of separation without putting themselves in moral or physical danger, then their rebellion is usually softer. They begin to dislike your music because they like something different. Maybe they are not fond of the plaid I have dressed them in since childhood and prefer less conservative prints. Things like that. Sometimes their grades drop because their parents are too caught up in material success. Etc.

If God had wanted us all to be the same, he would have made us all the same. Instead, he made us individuals. He placed us in family with parents from whom one needs to eventually separate in order to be an autonomous adult. If Jesus Christ had remained a carpenter in his father's business, your religion would not exist. His rejection of the Jewish Palestinian norm was very rebellious by the standards of his day.

[Coconut Flan]

A wise woman once told me that all children/teens rebel. It's a developmental stage. She said the knack of parenting was to pick wisely those areas that we as parents chose to tackle and encouraging our children to find themselves.

I think that Josh Duggar exemplifies what happens with the Gothard fear of and attempts to quash all rebellious spirits. It will come out eventually. In Josh's case it is something years behind his actual age and in particular in his case self-destructive with the overeating especially of fast food.

[Three and Done]

Our job as parents: (Please feel free to add anything I forget!)

- To provide a safe, healthy, loving environment free of physical punishment and abuse of any kind.

- To set age-appropriate limits and understand that every child is different.

- To teach our children to never judge or condemn another human being based upon their gender, race, religion, nationality, sexual orientation, or outward appearance.

- To encourage them to indulge their interests and follow THEIR dreams, even if we do not understand them, and to try our very best TO understand them.

- To treat others with respect, compassion, and empathy.

- To let them know that they do not have to be afraid to discuss difficult subjects with us.

- To admit when we are wrong and that we will try our best to do better.

- To stand up for those that are weaker.

- To know that we will always be there for them when they need us, as long as there is breath in our bodies.

[Austin]

I'll add!

Establishing your own eating habits (becoming a veggie/vegan or meat eater if raised veg), reading things that are against the family values, making friends on your own (with your own values as to what makes a good friend), finding hobbies that your parents would discourage.

Rebelling is important in deciding who you are and what you believe in. I did it, my husband did it (late....after high school), and I expect my kids to do it.

All of these things, and probably more we haven't thoguht of, are healthy types of rebellion. Rebellion is the natural order of things and the only way that children can become adults. They must put distance between themselves and us (their parents) or they will never come into their own, which is what every emotionally healthy parent wants for their offspring, despite the growing pains. Wise parents realize this and embrace it.

Joanne, you definitely need some help with your warped and destructive worldview.

[jenny_islander]

Some examples of healthy youthful rebellion for Joanne. FJ feel free to add you examples since I'm only on my first cup of espresso.

Resisting parental dress codes, dying ones hair, rejecting the established religious and political values in a family, listening to music their parents don't like, resisting and violating established curfews set by the family, dressing as a means of expressing themselves, becoming involved in political activities or expressing political opinions that differ from their parents and experimenting with 'vulgar' language.

Asking parents to explain their reasoning, disagreeing with parents' conclusions (even in a cloddish, graceless way--they're teenagers, they don't have a lot of practice at this!), choosing educational or career paths not favored by their parents, trying to learn more about other faiths/cultures/political parties, moving away from home upon reaching legal age, wanting to keep their earned income for their own use, falling in love with an unapproved person, wanting to sleep in in the morning (this is a physical issue: most teens naturally don't get sleepy until very late and then need to sleep in later in the morning; we don't really know why).

[jenny_islander]

A wise woman once told me that all children/teens rebel. It's a developmental stage. She said the knack of parenting was to pick wisely those areas that we as parents chose to tackle and encouraging our children to find themselves.

I think that Josh Duggar exemplifies what happens with the Gothard fear of and attempts to quash all rebellious spirits. It will come out eventually. In Josh's case it is something years behind his actual age and in particular in his case self-destructive with the overeating especially of fast food.

Yes, it's like he doesn't know how to stop without someone hovering over him to take away the spoon. Or as if he defines adulthood as "Yay! Nobody's there to take away the spoon!" And the way he keeps on posting photos of chain restaurants is kind of sad.

This is instructive. Teenagers have to be able to experiment with making decisions while there is somebody there to help them up after the inevitable faceplant. Imagine what would happen to a baby who was never allowed to practice toddling for fear that he might go off in the wrong direction. Either he would never toddle at all, or the moment his caregiver left the room his pent-up frustration at having his God-ordained skills stifled would lead him to toddle as far and as fast as he could--and probably in a dangerous direction. What's more, his experience of grown-ups as "those jerks who kept me on the blanket when my whole being was aching to move" would not dispose him to listen to adult advice once he started moving. The same things happen to teenagers who are never allowed to practice being grown up.

[NerdyHil]

Joanne,

I understand that the concept of rebellion in your mind is not a positive one. I've read your stories of rebelling against your father, and the actions you took to "rebel" were not destructive and problem causing. Therefore, you seem to see the idea of normal teenage rebellion as something you want to shelter and protect your children from those bad things. Okay, it get it. You just want to be a good parent and keep your kids safe.

The thing is, Joanne, it's okay to not be a clone of your parents. It really is just fine to be your own person. You told us how different your life is from your father's. But what happens if your children don't want to be just like you? I rebelled against my parent's world view by becoming involved in politics and other social causes I felt mattered. I dressed how I wanted, listened to scary music, and had weird friends. I also graduated from HS and college. I went to church every Sunday. I married a good man. I was even a virgin when I got married. So, the fact that I found out who I was and was able to push boundaries didn't make me a wild harridan, it allowed me to make my own choices and mistakes. It made me a better person. I still don't believe the same things as my parents, I still have weird friends, and I'm not just like everyone else. I think I'm awesome.

Please don't take those important moments to grow away from your children under the guise of protection.

Thank you, and good night!

[waterlily]

No, I do not feel this way. I was not saying that any of these people are evil. I was making a reference to how fundies/fundie bloggers like to say this.

And not sure if you meant it this way, but lesbians, feminist, heathens, atheists and agnostics are NOT evil.

[waterlily]

First time I posted on any blog. (Joannes) First time I ever posted on FJ was this week I believe. I see a few connections between FJers & myself but not anything I can ever go into detail about. I wish.

I would encourage you to post here and not on fundie blogs/boards. I can see that your heart is in the right place, and you need to heal, but it would be better to do so in a community of woman who are sympathetic or empathetic to what you are going through. Your comment on the blog is going to fall on deaf ears, even thou

Cradling you Bodyguard style,

Angri-la