And Joanne falls even deeper down the rabbit hole...

[emmiedahl]

Basement apartments are likely legal in most parts of the country. I know they are in my town and I know there were in several towns I lived in in CA.

They are legal here as long as they have adequate ventilation and two points of exit from every room intended for sleeping.

[Witsec7]

They are legal here as long as they have adequate ventilation and two points of exit from every room intended for sleeping.

Exactly Emmie.

The circumstances of one's housing doesn't automatically flag someone as abusive under the law. Simply because many of us eschew the values by which Joanne raises her children and their lifestyle, does't mean that she can met the test of abuse under her states standards. This was discussed in depth with regards to Esther Shrader living in the pop up with her kids.

[FaeT]

Exactly Emmie.

The circumstances of one's housing doesn't automatically flag someone as abusive under the law. Simply because many of us eschew the values by which Joanne raises her children and their lifestyle, does't mean that she can met the test of abuse under her states standards. This was discussed in depth with regards to Esther Shrader living in the pop up with her kids.

From the church basements I've seen, they don't have legal requirements. If this church does, then great. I'm just curious if anyone has checked it out since she's inviting people to do so. Although aside from all that, I can't imagine living in a basement with very small - or no - windows is good for mental health. I need sunlight.

[emmiedahl]

I think this whole situation is all about controlling women. If you cannot work and you cannot remarry, then you have to put up with whatever bullshit your husband gives you or end up in a church basement living on weevily rice.

[MonkeyMomma]

I think this whole situation is all about controlling women. If you cannot work and you cannot remarry, then you have to put up with whatever bullshit your husband gives you or end up in a church basement living on weevily rice.

It always comes back to that, doesn't it?

[emmiedahl]

It always comes back to that, doesn't it?

It really does with these people.

Instead of preventing divorce by doing things that build happy marriages, they choose to prevent divorce by trapping the women so they cannot leave when they are unhappy. Not that divorce is always a bad thing, either. My mother's divorce and remarriage gave me half of my siblings and the most stable father figure I could wish for.

[Witsec7]

...

From the church basements I've seen, they don't have legal requirements. If this church does, then great. I'm just curious if anyone has checked it out since she's inviting people to do so. Although aside from all that, I can't imagine living in a basement with very small - or no - windows is good for mental health. I need sunlight.

She has photos on her blog and yes there are windows.

[doe]

She doesn't live in the church basement anymore. She lives in a house next door (or nearby) the church.

[Witsec7]

She doesn't live in the church basement anymore. She lives in a house next door (or nearby) the church.

Cool, do you know when that took place? I'm off to search the blog.

edited to add: Found it!

[doe]

Cool, do you know when that took place? I'm off to search the blog.

No idea, but you can tell from pictures on her Frugal Home and Health blog.

[Witsec7]

No idea, but you can tell from pictures on her Frugal Home and Health blog.

I found it doe, thank you.

[Koala]

She replied to the person who commented on her son being an adult:

One again "anon" my son is not 19. You have not given me scripture references that say 19 is an adult nor have you give me references that say I must submit to my son once he is an adult (whatever age that might be according to the bible). I"m open to learn if you can provide the references. I actually spoke with a brother about this last evening and he too could not come up with a specific age like you have, that is why I am asking for scripture references.

I choose to submit to the brothers here and they are IN my home, not outside of it.

Interesting. Her son may not be 19, but according to Joanne (as of last Feb.) he had already turned 18:

http://www.fewtherebethatfindit.blogspo ... tious.html

My son Tylor got a letter in the mail the other day stating that he has not yet registered for Selective Service. I remember they asked him at the driver's license office whenever he got his license (not too long after he turned 18), but we declined to register because I was not sure what to do or even if he had to register. I quickly forgot about it, and then here comes this letter.

Funny isn't it, how her attitudes vary on submission?

Her attitude towards submitting to "the brothers" from the church:

Though I'd gladly submit to them (I sure would appreciate the structure and guidance they could offer), I am not sure it is their duty to fill that role in my life.

Her attitude towards submitting to an adult son:

I actually spoke with a brother about this last evening and he too could not come up with a specific age like you have, that is why I am asking for scripture references.

So when it's a brother she's blogging away, practically begging them to "rebuke" her, but when someone mentions that according to the Bible she should actually be submitting to her son, she starts ranting on about how he's not an adult (even though he is) and how she's going to need Biblical references for that. :lol: I don't recall her being worried about "Biblical references" when she was begging one of the brothers to become her "head".

Joanne, do you happen to have any Biblical references that imply you should be submitting to random men from your church?

Also, what is considered an adult in your mind? Your son is above 18 and works.

Ps. The above linked post has the infamous explanation for why Joanne needs the interwebz, but her kids totally don't:

Anon:

Why isn't he the one writing about this?

Joanne:

Anonymous #1 - Why isn't my son the one posting this? My children have no need or desire to use the internet.

Random poster:

Your son is an adult. There is much good on the internet. If your children have no need or desire to use the internet why do you use it?

Joanne:

The internet is a tool that serves whatever purpose the user of the tool needs. Some use it as a tool to commit fornication, adultery, and all sorts of other wicked things. Some use it as a tool to waste time, be idle, and amuse themselves. Some use it as a tool for business. I use it as a tool to see if I can find someone who loves the truth and also as a tool to keep in touch with brethren. My son does not need this particular tool right now and maybe he never will.

[FaeT]

The internet is a tool that serves whatever purpose the user of the tool needs. Some use it as a tool to commit fornication, adultery, and all sorts of other wicked things. Some use it as a tool to waste time, be idle, and amuse themselves. Some use it as a tool for business. I use it as a tool to see if I can find someone who loves the truth and also as a tool to keep in touch with brethren. My son does not need this particular tool right now and maybe he never will.

Translation: I am too much of a control freak to allow him to use the internet. He may seek freedom and leave me which would cause me to have to actually do something to support myself and my children.

[tropaka]

all this talk about looking for people to submit to gives me a creepy feeling; it's like "I don't like not being told what to do or think - I'd better find somebody, but it's got to be biblically referenced".

[joannesmith]

If you want to try to sell people on the idea that this group isn't trying to break up families, then perhaps you need to remove the link to their website from your blog. They're a little obvious. :roll:

That said, I sincerely worry for you and your children. When you set up a situation where someone has all of the control and power (because of their gender or whatever else) you make the people "under" them very easy targets.

I am curious as to why you (a grown woman with adult and near adult children) feel the need to find someone to "submit" to. Your post is practically begging one of the "brothers" to step in and "rebuke and correct" you as you put it. Should one of them decide to take you up on it (and I have no doubt they will), that puts you and your children in a very dangerous position. Quite frankly I worry that you would even know when a line needed to be drawn, as your post is a study in the lack of boundaries.

Koala, just like me, these people found out about this church long after they made the choice to obey Jesus' teachings about divorce / adultery / etc.

No one in this church has "all of the control and power". Why would I, a grown woman, feel the need to find someone to 'submit' to? I trust these brothers because of the godly fruits they are producing. When I need help, I turn to them. It is as simple as that. Now of course it is my choice if I heed their counsel or advice, but usually I do.

[joannesmith]

So Joanne's true husband and headship is her first, divorced, jerk of a husband. So...shouldn't she find him and go back to him? Why is she hanging around in a church basement letting strange men tell her what to do? Joanne, once you came to believe that your second, happy marriage was in fact adultery, wouldn't the correct thing to do have been to go back to your "real" husband? Rather than travelling aimlessly, church-shopping around the country and ending up unemployed in a church basement in some little town in Missouri while wearing a bathrobe and a bedsheet on your head? Where's your first husband? Doesn't he want you back to lead and chastise?

If for some reason you can't or won't go back to your first and only husband, I agree that the second best option for you is definitely to start deferring to your oldest son as your headship and the head of the family. If he's in his late teens? He would definitely have been considered an adult man in Bible times. And isn't that what you are striving to do, live as authentically Biblically as possible?

Please don't call him names. I would reconcile to him if he wants to. I'm not sure where you see I was 'traveling aimlessly'? [plenty of aim] Unemployed? [i have several little jobs] Church basement? [been in a house for about 1 1/2 years] Bathrobe .. bedsheet ... ok, that's partially true. We do use sheets to make into coverings and dresses.

[thoughtful]

Why would I, a grown woman, feel the need to find someone to 'submit' to?

No reason I can think of, but you did write this:

Though I'd gladly submit to them (I sure would appreciate the structure and guidance they could offer), I am not sure it is their duty to fill that role in my life.

That certainly sounds like you would love to submit to them, and only your idea that it is not their role is stopping you.

If we misunderstood, please enlighten us.

[joannesmith]

I know she has posted a picture of her daughter with her father. Not a lot of back story though. He looked very "normal". Wonder how he feels about the life his kids are living now?

ETA: http://www.fewtherebethatfindit.blogspo ... twins.html

Actually, he is very thankful for how they are turning out and fully supports the way we are living. He is very "normal". Sings in a rock band, drinks a little. Smokes. Etc. He is glad they are not like him. I love that picture of Brianna and her dad :) It is very special to her.

[joannesmith]

You don't want "enlightened". It does not matter what I say, you will find fault with it.

[thoughtful]

You don't want "enlightened". It does not matter what I say, you will find fault with it.

This was my first post on this thread. I don't think you have any way of knowing how I would react.

If you were addressing FJ in general, assuming we all have the same attitude towards everyone and everything, you are mistaken.

There was no sarcasm in my post -- I meant it. I'm puzzled.

Your original statement sounds very much like someone who yearns to have someone to whom you must submit. But your more recent post has you asking why a grown woman would need that.

Those two statements are contradictory, to me. That's a big part of what we discuss here -- why do strong, grown women, capable of caring for themselves, want to submit?

If you can explain it, I really do want to read the explanation.

[Witsec7]

Actually, he is very thankful for how they are turning out and fully supports the way we are living. He is very "normal". Sings in a rock band, drinks a little. Smokes. Etc. He is glad they are not like him. I love that picture of Brianna and her dad :) It is very special to her.

Does your arm ever hurt from spending so much time patting yourself on the back?

It's interesting but not unusual that you are a true to form fundy who never answers direct questions, you just dip into FJ for some attention whoring every now and then.

[holierthanyou]

In regards to Joann's desire to be rebuked and corrected by these Godly men of her church... Am I the only one thinking there might be a few shades of grey in there?

[joannesmith]

Joanne, I have a serious question:

-You did not raise your children in your current faith. How did your children respond when you told them, hey, we're going to divorce your father/step-father and live in a church basement and you are going to start wearing Amish clothing and give all of your hard-earned money away? I seriously cannot imagine having that conversation with teenagers. Did they rebel, even a little?

... And I'd love to hear your response to what others have asked: what will it take for you to consider your son to be an adult?

It wasn't an all-the-sudden thing. I read what Jesus said about how being married to a divorced woman is adultery in 2005. I took it to my second husband (who is Hindu) right away and asked him what he thought. He said it seems like according to Jesus we are living in adultery. He also said that maybe I am missing something so he encouraged me to keep reading and see what I find. I struggled for about 3 years openly - meaning, the children knew and he knew. During these three years, I was attending mostly different baptist churches and a few home churches. But also we were making changes to conform to what the NT taught (modesty, worldliness, etc.). My second husband was a great help and encouragement through the whole thing. When I decided to step out and obey Christ, he continued being a help and an encouragement and still is to this day. Did my children rebel even a little? No. They love me and also they saw what the bible says about my situation.

Contrary to what everyone likes to say here on freejinger, my son chooses to help support the family. He has free access to the money and gets what he needs whenever he needs it. Our family is a working unit ... meaning, we all pitch in and we all share to make ends meet. We are very close. The boys have jobs they do together and my daughter and I have jobs we do together. We all do the farmers market together.

"What will it take for you to consider your son to be an adult?" I'm not really sure. My oldest son has a form of high functioning autism and it's a great blessing for him to be working and learning so much. Before moving here, I was not sure what was going to happen to him. Now however he's made great strides towards becoming a functioning adult. He is not able to drive by himself (except on the farm) nor is he able to live by himself. He is very thankful (and so I am) to have a few godly brothers around to help him and challenge him. They have been so patient with him and have taught him a whole lot of valuable work skills.

I love my children dearly and they love me. We make a great team. This is hard for many to understand because sadly the accepted norm today is to have selfish, rebellious children. I look back to how I was when I was their age ... selfish and rebellious ... and I am so sad for all I put my dad through. Even though I was very close with my dad, I still was very disrespectful. I am thankful I have lived long enough to tell him I am sorry for being such a jerk of a daughter in the past.

I hope there is nothing in what I have said that causes anyone to "snark" more.

[Witsec7]

This is hard for many to understand because sadly the accepted norm today is to have selfish, rebellious children.

Yup teen rebellion is normative, across cultures. It's part of growing and becoming independent individuals.

[Koala]

Why would I, a grown woman, feel the need to find someone to 'submit' to? I trust these brothers because of the godly fruits they are producing. When I need help, I turn to them. It is as simple as that. Now of course it is my choice if I heed their counsel or advice, but usually I do.

Joanne, these two statements do not match:

I'm learning my place as a woman that does not have a husband around to help, correct, rebuke, instruct, and so on. Not having boundaries has been one of the hardest struggles I've had. There are many brothers here whom I can turn to for help, but I do my best to not depend on them too much because they are not my 'head' and I'm still not real sure exactly how much I should or should not be putting on them. Though I'd gladly submit to them (I sure would appreciate the structure and guidance they could offer), I am not sure it is their duty to fill that role in my life.

There is a huge gulf between appreciating advice that you feel free to accept or toss out, and submitting to correction, rebuke, and instruction. Are you now stating that you just wanted advice and weren't looking to submit to them?

Also, would you mind addressing the fact that you said your son is not an adult, even though according to your posts he is over 18?