"Damn immigrants need to learn proper english!"

[formergothardite]

I have rarely seen such unity on here. We have people telling geniebelle she's got a problem who pretty much never agree on anything. Then sassyNoz47 with her (frankly, also racist sounding) opinion popped up. So that's like eleventy people who say "this is problematic" and one person who doesn't think Spanish is just as viable a first language as English. If I intended to bang that drum, I would proofread my post before I submitted it. Pro-tip for next time, sassy.

Since she's having a go at people for language issues, I think all is fair in love and snark forums.

I know, right! This is a rare event. Genie, the fact that pretty much everybody disagrees with you should tell you something.

[thinkforyourself]

This is the post that is bringing me out of lurkdom! I just wanted to say that I think a lot of the problem stems from the fact that Americans are always in such a f-ing hurry! If anything gets in the way of their precious time (even a few seconds), it is certainly the other person's fault. I work with developmentally disabled adults. Many want nothing more than to work and earn a living like everyone else. Yet, when they find a job they are capable of, they sometimes get fired because the supervisor gets complaints from customers who can't understand them. Sorry if you have to speak a little slower and maybe repeat yourself! Yet, it seems that the same people who complain are the people who always complain about any kind of government assistance. So which way do they want it? Let these hard working people inconvenience them for 15 seconds or keep paying 100% of their expenses!

[Tempehst]

okay I haven't read the entire thread but this really made me want to post. My husband and I are raising our kids trilingually with Finnish, German and English and holy crap you'd think we were shitting on the American flag by including other languages that are important to us in our children's lives.

Generally speaking, people are pretty open to it and comment "oh that's great!" when I tell them, but then they act like my oldest can't speak English, they talk to him through me (he's almost 4 and it's just fine if they talk right to him! He understands English! He might even speak it to you if you give him a chance!) and we had some of our best friends talking shit about it behind our backs, telling everyone we didn't want anything English language in our household and that sort of thing.

Seriously, trilingual means THREE languages and English is ONE of them. We're not rejecting English, we're not rejecting America, we're just doing what we think is best for our kids. We have the ability, we'd be silly NOT to do it.

We also have some other friends who have the ability to raise their son with Finnish, English and Spanish but they're only doing Finnish and English and my husband was like "Why? Spanish is sooo useful and important!" but a lot of me wonders if it isn't because of the negative connotations speaking Spanish in the US has. If you speak Spanish you're some dumb Mexican who probably snuck over the boarder and is taken' our jobs and that sort of thing. there is definitely a very different reaction from raising your kids with some languages vs. others and it's really sad.

These people in the OP's post totally reminds me of the attitude we encounter a lot in our lives and it's so sad and aggravating.

[Iamthatbean]

My daughter is Deaf. Culturally Deaf, different than just hearing impaired. She can voice but chooses not to much of the time. Our family has lived in northern Ohio her entire life. When she does voice she has an extremely thick Deaf accent that almost sounds Southern. We have several independence based goals we are working on (paying a cashier at a store, ordering food). She often has people telling her that she would go back to her country until she speaks properly and if she signs and I interpret, we have had people tell her that English is the language we speak here and that she has no reason not to. If she tells people she is Deaf they tell me to implant her.

[2xx1xy1JD]

I had a bilingual education growing up in Ontario. It was a wonderful education and I cannot praise it enough. The children in the French Immersion program always had higher standardized test scores in English than the non-immersion children at the same school. We also had higher grades in the high school classes we took with the Straight English kids (what non-immersion kids are called locally). In French we studied reading and writing (normal English class stuff but in French), math, history, geography, social sciences, French and French Canadian culture and science (until grade 9) and in English we studied reading and writing, art, music, gym, and environmental studies. In grade 9, we started taking science in English but we had additional French classes like Media Studies.

About half of my French teachers spoke 3 or more languages. One interesting thing was that we did not speak with any of the Canadian French accents, instead we spoke with a Parisian accent. We were taught both the Parisian and Quebecois terms if there were variations. My sister has a job that requires her to be bilingual and has lost her Parisian accent and now speaks with a Quebecois accent as she deals with Quebecers daily. My maternal grandmother speaks with a Canadian Prairie French accent.

I don't see what the big deal is regarding bilingual education or having children learn a language other than English. In my experience kids who have a bilingual education develop an ability to go seamlessly from one language to another. We have several German only schools in my area, and the children who attend them also speak German at home. I see these children all the time on Saturdays and they speak perfect English. They pick it up because they grow up surrounded by English and they speak it very well.

Previous generations of my family experienced prejudice and harassment because they were French Canadian and I have great sympathy for the prejudices Spanish speaking Americans experience. My French Canadian family experienced prejudice from the English speaking majority in which they lived (outside of Quebec), though there was a considerable French Canadian population in the area. As a result my grandmother's education was only in English and she only taught her children English in the hopes they would be spared the bigotry and hardships previous generations had endured. We lost much of our culture, traditions and identity in a short time.

Sometimes, test scores can be skewed if kids were are struggling are transferred out of the bilingual program, so that the Straight English program ends up with a disproportionate number of kids with learning issues.

That said, my kids are getting a bilingual education, and it's great. Interestingly enough, their Hebrew language program was largely designed in Montreal, and the idea was to get away from the translation model and into the idea of immersion and getting kids to learn language naturally. I'm jealous, because too much of my French and Hebrew educations were based on translation, and it's really affected my fluency. I can read French well, but having a full conversation is much more of a struggle. What helped me in both languages was time spent in settings where the language was all around me and I HAD to speak it, because nobody would speak English to me.

[fakepigtails73]

English is a fairly easy language to learn, compared to German, French and Arabic (hence why it's the #1 business language)...The thing is that the way a lot of schools teach English as a second language is worthless. If I would've only learned ESL in schools (they start ESL in grade 3 here in QC, soon it'll be in grade 1, which I think is too early) I'd be monolingual in French today. Best way to learn English is through immersion and watching some TV and movies in English, which is fairly easy due to the volume of available cultural products in the English language.

Re: my accent, well it's the same as Jean Chrétien, so... :lol:

During the 2008 Beijing Olympics I saw a news report on this young Chinese woman who was working as the main guide to the French-language section of the Canadian Olympic delegation. She spoke perfect Québec French, and when the reporter asked how how many yrs did she lived in Québec beforehand she replied that she's never been outside of China! She learned the language all by herself, and what helped her with immitating the QC accent was watching hours upon hours of French-language stuff on youtube...I was speechless. One thing for sure, Chinese people have a much stronger work ethic than us, and that's part of the reason why the 21st century is likely to belong to them. Re: the aforementionned girl, I have a feeling that she left out part of her story...One didn't get such a nice job without being a loyal CPC party member, and I think part of her intelligence agency training was learning French on youtube, with the content censored beforehand...

[Conuly]

English is a fairly easy language to learn, compared to German, French and Arabic (hence why it's the #1 business language)

That's not why. French used to be the number one (that's why we call them lingua francas) and before that it was Latin (that's why lingua franca is in Latin instead of French).

It has everything to do with the British empire followed by the rise of America as a superpower, and nothing to do with how hard or easy the language is to speak. It's politics, that all.

[fakepigtails73]

That's not why. French used to be the number one (that's why we call them lingua francas) and before that it was Latin (that's why lingua franca is in Latin instead of French).

It has everything to do with the British empire followed by the rise of America as a superpower, and nothing to do with how hard or easy the language is to speak. It's politics, that all.

True, I forgot to say it. Sorry.

French is the language of diplomacy, at least it used to be.

Re: accents, I'll always have problems when talking with pronouncing "th" correctly, often when I say "I think", it'll sound like "I tink" (hard T), and no ammount of practice will help. :ugeek:

[nolongerIFBx]

How do you know the couple was fundy?

That would be my question too. Just because someone is a jerk doesn't make them fundie. I'm fundie but I don't believe and certainly hope I would not ever treat anyone like that. Sometimes a jerk is just a jerk.

Edited- saw that you judged this based on dress and attitude.

[Tempehst]

That would be my question too. Just because someone is a jerk doesn't make them fundie. I'm fundie but I don't believe and certainly hope I would not ever treat anyone like that. Sometimes a jerk is just a jerk.

Edited- saw that you judged this based on dress and attitude.

He had a shirt on him that said "Headship." His wife had a shirt that said "headship" with an arrow pointing towards him. After that, it was easy to figure out! ;)

[Anise]

English is a fairly easy language to learn, compared to German, French and Arabic (hence why it's the #1 business language)...

Not to jump on you, but the relative easiness of a language to learn depends on one's native language.

[fakepigtails73]

Not to jump on you, but the relative easiness of a language to learn depends on one's native language.

No you're not jumping, it makes me think...

Do you mean that German would be easier to learn for a native English speaker than for an Arabic native, or that Spanish is easier for an Italian than for a Dane??

Not being dense, just trying to understand. Languages fascinate me.

Oh, and re: the OP...Yeah I wonder what makes you think they were fundies. They seemed like racist thieves first and foremost.

[Anise]

No you're not jumping, it makes me think...

Do you mean that German would be easier to learn for a native English speaker than for an Arabic native, or that Spanish is easier for an Italian than for a Dane??

Not being dense, just trying to understand. Languages fascinate me.

Yep, that's it exactly. I think tends to be easier for people to learn a language in the same language family probably due to similar sounds and grammar structures.

[kittypie]

A little OT: I deal with accents a lot because I answer the phone for my company. Sometimes I have to ask them to repeat, but I don't mind.

Some of the people who deliver office supplies, etc. are Latino. Is it offensive for me to employ what little Spanish I know when speaking to them, as in Hola, Gracias, De Nada, etc.? They smile when I do but I'm not sure if they appreciate it or if they are laughing at my accent. :)

[Tempehst]

A little OT: I deal with accents a lot because I answer the phone for my company. Sometimes I have to ask them to repeat, but I don't mind.

Some of the people who deliver office supplies, etc. are Latino. Is it offensive for me to employ what little Spanish I know when speaking to them, as in Hola, Gracias, De Nada, etc.? They smile when I do but I'm not sure if they appreciate it or if they are laughing at my accent. :)

It will vary based on the person you talk to, so I would ask them. Just because they're latino doesn't mean they speak Spanish--what if they were raised in an Indian (as in native American) community and spoke very little Spanish there?

[Conuly]

Do you mean that German would be easier to learn for a native English speaker than for an Arabic native, or that Spanish is easier for an Italian than for a Dane??

That's largely the case, although many English speakers find the Romance languages easier to learn than German, probably because they no longer have cases and English no longer has cases, so the grammar is more similar.

But yes, the person who speaks Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, French, Walloon, Sicilian, Picard, and Catalan has accomplished a very different thing from the person who "only" speaks Russian, Basque, Japanese, and Navajo.

Mind, they both speak more languages than I do, so who am I to judge?

[takers401]

It will vary based on the person you talk to, so I would ask them. Just because they're latino doesn't mean they speak Spanish--what if they were raised in an Indian (as in native American) community and spoke very little Spanish there?

I second asking. I have a few friends that physically looks Hispanic but can't speak a word of Spanish. With one couple there tends to be a few second looks as he (who looks Hispanic) can't speak a lick, but she (who is a stereo-typically looking white girl) is fluent.

[B5SnowDog]

Some of the people who deliver office supplies, etc. are Latino. Is it offensive for me to employ what little Spanish I know when speaking to them, as in Hola, Gracias, De Nada, etc.? They smile when I do but I'm not sure if they appreciate it or if they are laughing at my accent. :)

I don't know if I would consider it to be offensive, but I think it can be irritating. For one thing, some Latinos don't speak Spanish at all. If you haven't heard them speak Spanish, you're making an assumption about them based on their appearance.

[formergothardite]

Well, I'm taking it genie has flounced from this thread.

[holierthanyou]

Well, I'm taking it genie has flounced from this thread.

Praise the Lord! :whistle: :dance:

[formergothardite]

You know, I was going to give her a pass after her initial freak out over sexism, but I really think she is a troll. And she doesn't come off as someone in her 40's like she claimed to be. (Wasn't it 40's?)

[2xx1xy1JD]

Yep, that's it exactly. I think tends to be easier for people to learn a language in the same language family probably due to similar sounds and grammar structures.

Absolutely!

As I said, my French reading ability is near-fluent (just had to use it today to read a Quebec court order). Same alphabet, and there is a lot of shared or very similar vocabulary. My reading ability in Hebrew isn't nearly as good, because it's a different alphabet. As well, because of my French knowledge, I was able to travel in Italy, despite the fact that few people spoke English, since I could figure out the basic meaning of things that were written.

Do you really find English easy to learn? I find that other languages tend to have fewer exceptions to the rules. My kids, who learned English and Hebrew reading at the same time, found it easier to learn Hebrew for this reason.

One thing I'll say about learning languages is that you really learn about language structure. When I talk about grammar, I automatically think of the terms in French, because I spent more time learning French grammar than English grammar.

[holierthanyou]

You know, I was going to give her a pass after her initial freak out over sexism, but I really think she is a troll. And she doesn't come off as someone in her 40's like she claimed to be. (Wasn't it 40's?)

Oh, she is 100% troll in my books now! I think she really is in her 40s, assuming she signed up with her real email address. Her public facebook page had a pic of a woman in her 40s, and looked like a 'real' fb page with a long history. She also has a whole bunch of publicly viewable geneology posts and information. Literally, the woman has her entire family tree posted online.

Strange but true.

I think immaturity is not necessarily linked to age. ;)

[NurseNell]

This is the post that is bringing me out of lurkdom! I just wanted to say that I think a lot of the problem stems from the fact that Americans are always in such a f-ing hurry! If anything gets in the way of their precious time (even a few seconds), it is certainly the other person's fault. I work with developmentally disabled adults. Many want nothing more than to work and earn a living like everyone else. Yet, when they find a job they are capable of, they sometimes get fired because the supervisor gets complaints from customers who can't understand them. Sorry if you have to speak a little slower and maybe repeat yourself! Yet, it seems that the same people who complain are the people who always complain about any kind of government assistance. So which way do they want it? Let these hard working people inconvenience them for 15 seconds or keep paying 100% of their expenses!

I love that our grocery store hires developmentally delayed adults. They are very good workers and take such pride in their work. I've never seen a customer be rude to them though I suppose a few have. Many are adults with Down's Syndromes but there is one young man who was a college student who drank and drove. He suffered significant brain damage. He shares his story with others so they won't make the mistake he did, hopefully.

[Guest Anonymous]

Oh, she is 100% troll in my books now! I think she really is in her 40s, assuming she signed up with her real email address. Her public facebook page had a pic of a woman in her 40s, and looked like a 'real' fb page with a long history. She also has a whole bunch of publicly viewable geneology posts and information. Literally, the woman has her entire family tree posted online.

Strange but true.

I think immaturity is not necessarily linked to age. ;)

Now she's back to posting in other threads like nothing ever happened. Rinse, repeat, redo.