"Damn immigrants need to learn proper english!"

[delilahdog11]

It's still a free country, last I checked. Plenty of private businesses don't really need the business of monolingual English speakers and so they don't cater for that audience. I shop in markets that don't - they speak a bunch of languages there and the cashier has some minimal English but random shop workers might not, and the signs aren't in English because 99.999% of the customers don't need it.

The law is in English, in the US, which means that English does have a special status, officially or not. But when it comes to private interactions with people and private business, there are no rules, and there are plenty of places that do just fine without ever bothering to deal with monolingual English speakers.

Personally I do think that people should learn the language of the country they live in, whenever possible. HOWEVER!!

(1) Many people are living in the US on a fairly temporary basis, as the dependents of foreign graduate students and the like

(2) Many other people live in the US but end up working such crazy hours that there is no time for studying - they leave that to the kids, who learn English at school

(3) Private businesses can do whatever they want in any language they want, because they are PRIVATE

(4) People can speak any language they want to in the street, similarly

(5) You will still need translation services for government because knowing how to chat someone up on the street or deal with customers in your shop is a FAR FAR FAR cry from being able to defend yourself in a legal proceeding or deal with tax dispute issues at your shop

(6) Plenty of Americans move abroad all over the world and live in little English-only expat bubbles - they even send their kids to English-only "international" schools which are anything but - they're little American schools.

(7) Foreign countries often translate their government publications for this reason too - in Japan you can easily find Chinese, Korean, English, and Portuguese versions of official paperwork - it's not only the US that has to do this.

Your comment about businesses catering to monolingual English speakers reminded me of this news story on NPR. The story was discussing how Salt Lake City, Utah is becoming a second Silicon Valley because it is one of the cities with the highest amount of people who speak multiple languages. The reason for this is because of the Mormon population and that it is required that young adults spend two years doing missionary work. To prepare for this work, they have to learn the language of the country they are going to. More and more companies are looking for a way to branch out to foreign market places. Understanding that xenophobic rage is not a good business model. They are also looking for ways to connect with non-English speakers in our own country. Gotta squeeze dollars out of every demographic. Globalization is upon us and it is short sighted and ignorant to say there is only one way to speak.

When I talk to my mom. An educated, white woman. I have to repeat myself all the time because she doesn't listen and she has a chronic illness, so some days she isn't feeling well. Repeating yourself is just part of communicating with another person. I feel more for the person handling my customer service job because, most likely, they get shitty pay with little hope of advancement or a pay raise, most people probably are rude to them, they have call time and quotas they have to meet or they will get fired. They can control how long a phone call is going to take. Yeah they could look for a better job, but most of us are lucky to still be employed. It doesn't ruin my life to take a few moments out of my day to be polite to them and to answer repeat questions. They have probably had a ton of calls before mine and could be distracted. Most call centers are very noisy since the desks are stacked on top of each other and everyone around you is typing and talking on the phone.

I am of the firm belief that everyone in America should have to work in the service industry for at least a year. I think this should be a requirement of all politicians. They should also try to survive on minimum wage. Working in service industry, at least for me, taught me how to treat people with respect and to be polite. As most customer service people are attempting to actually help you.

[pomology]

Well, in retrospect, when I say "more typically" I might mean "more typically by people interested in linguistics", so maybe it's a biased sample group?

I guess that true, but yeah, AAVE is definitely more common in linguistics. I'm not really sure why I said Ebonics instead of AAVE in that post. Maybe I thought it was a more widely-recognized term? I don't know. But either, treating AAVE like a dialect, which it is, and not just a shitty way of speaking, which it isn't, and just as an alternative but not inferior way of speaking is awesome.

[pomology]

But there should be

FFS, WHY?

[Conuly]

FFS, WHY?

Because she wants the government all up in her business, controlling whom she hires and how they speak to their customers.

[delilahdog11]

I was raised in Northern VA. The land of no accent and I went to college in the deep South. My dad and I stopped in at Subway when we finally got to Mississippi and I remember the guy asking us if we would like vinegar and earl on our sandwiches. My dad and I just stood there like complete dummies. Having no idea what the guy was asking us. He finally had to point to the bottle of oil. He told us he was so embarrassed about how he pronounced oil. My dad said it was us who should be embarrassed because were now in the South and will have to learn how to understand their accent and dialect. It was fun as my dad and I tried to pronounce oil with a central MS accent and the guy tried to pronounce with no accent.

When I started to date a Cajun boy from Louisiana, who grew up in the heart of bayou country. I had to train my ear to an entirely new accent. I had so much difficulty understanding some of his friends and relatives, but rather than get upset that they were speaking, to me, a strangely accented English. I saw this an opportunity to experience a different culture. It was exciting. I grew up in an area with very of its own culture and I loved getting to experience the Cajun culture.

Even though we couldn't understand what he was asking us. Didn't mean that either one of us was unable to effectively communicate in English. We just hadn't developed an ear for the accent. Everyone speaks differently. It is ridiculous to expect there to be a standard accent. Or for there to be a federally-mandated language. There are bigger problems out there.

I am attempting to learn Spanish at a very late age because I am studying Public Health. There are some job fields were knowing how to speak Spanish is necessary. Are Spanish only speakers undeserving of public health services? Doesn't it not serve the needs of everyone in our society to provide them with public health services? Especially in the case of an epidemic. I can't change the fact that people don't speak English- if it reasonable, in some people's mind, to force them to learn English. Then isn't just a reasonable to, in my example, to ask public health majors to learn Spanish?

During the first couple of years that I was living in Mississippi. I was told by many people that I spoke too quickly and I needed to slow down. When in Rome, do as the Romans. I guess I could have ranted and raved about needing to change the way I spoke, but I was in the minority. I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to want to communicate with other people and to not be understood. Most immigrant families want to assimilate to American "culture" and want to learn to speak English. Non-native speakers are not going to be able to just shed their accents. Unless they go to a speech therapist. To say that immigrants do not want to learn proper English is just utter bullshit. They are here for a reason. I doubt very much they that want to feel like outsiders or to be treated like outsiders.

It drives me insane when people assume that because someone speaks with an accent or doesn't speak English well, then they are some how inferior or less intelligent. We have no idea what they did before they came to America. We have no idea if they grew up speaking English and were born and raised in America. Every individual has their own life story. Some southern accents are thought to be distinguished and novel like how many Americans view British accents. But many time, people with certain southern accents are thought to be slow or dumb witted because they speak with a drawl. We don't know if they are stupid or not. An accent tells you nothing about a person's ability to understand or to effectively communicate in English. Why are people so short sighted and narrow minded?

I am so sick of the cookie cutter, strip malling of America. It is wonderful that there are pockets of different cultures. It adds to my life. I get to experience something other than the Gap, Applebees, McDonald's, etc. There is a large Vietnamese community in the DC area and there were signs in various shopping plazas that were in both Vietnamese and English. The signs were meeting the needs of both communities. I didn't feel threatened because the signs weren't only in English. Who cares. I would have cared if there were only in Vietnamese because then I wouldn't have been able to discover some fabulous restaurants. Even if that had been the case. With a little trial and error. I would have been able to find my way around. I was happy that I didn't have to travel all the way to Vietnam to experience some of their culture. I would love to go there, if the flights weren't so expensive.

Edited: because I should have proofread it before posting it.

[delilahdog11]

Shall I demand that the Chinese signs at the local plazas and mall be taken down? I mean, I could start ranting and raving about the rights of the English majority....except that in my hometown, we're not a majority anymore.

http://www.markham.ca/wps/wcm/connect/1 ... 6fd186756b

Under genie's logic, should I be required to provide services in Cantonese?

Yes. Damn English speakers. Need to learn proper Cantonese. You know what they say. What is good for the goose....

[freejoytoo]

I live in England and the accent changes in every town, ffs. There are lots of different ways to speak English!

[Austin]

I often have trouble on the phone on a customer service or techincal support call understanding what the other person says the first time. I have found, though, that if I simply say, "I'm sorry, I didn't understand that", that they are usually very happy to say it again and maybe even slower. I imagine that when the shoe is on the other foot, my clients (I have several for whom English is not their first language, in Columbia and Dubai, for instance) struggle to understand me, but are without fail very patient and we just work through it together. Oftentimes, I will thank them at the end of the call for being so patient.

I'm just trying to do my job the best I can, and I figure that when I have trouble understanding someone, they're just trying to do their job the best they can.

I wish I could pick up on other languages better, but I seem to have such a flat ear (too long in the midwest?) and I've had trouble for months now with fluid in my ears, so I don't even understand my own family sometimes. :)

[Witsec1]

Ha ha, your story about "vinegar and earl" reminds me of the time my family was visiting my great-aunt in Oklahoma. I was around 9 or 10. When we were there my mom got some kind of stomach bug. After a day of throwing up, she was feeling a bit better and sent me to ask my great-aunt for some tea and crackers (and by crackers she meant crisp squares of salted flatbread, not a toy associated with Christmas). I went to the kitchen and said "Mom would like tea and crackers", which was mushed by my Midwestern accent into "tea 'n' crackers".

My great aunt looked at me a bit strangely. "She wants what, now?"

"Tea 'n' crackers, please", I repeated.

Great-aunt got down the box of saltines and started counting out "tea'n" crackers.

[JesusFightClub]

I love some of the stories here. They are so interesting!

There's a guy I know with a strong speech impediment. Add to that he is Scottish, geniebelle, I think you would struggle. :D

Normally I understand him fine, you only have to tune your ear a bit. But sometimes when I am being especially thick he has to repeat stuff multiple times and I feel like a total twat.

However I also have a mate with a strong Scouse accent and I really struggle to understand her on the phone. She speaks very quickly and I am not good with some English regional accents. No problem face to face, only on the phone.

Some people are better at it (tuning ear in) than others. Maybe geniebelle like me is not very good in some ways and she is blaming others for it.

[freejoytoo]

JFC, have you ever heard a strong Bristolian accent? That's nearly as hard to understand as Scouse! I'm actually very good at understanding Scouse because I lived in Liverpool for three years and some of aunts and uncles are from there. I have a soft spot for Scouse!

[Lady]

Really I think some Americans need to learn proper English. I am trying to polish my speech and writing, it is amazing how many more mistakes I am noticing other people making while I am trying to correct those same mistakes in myself.

[xReems]

I often have trouble on the phone on a customer service or techincal support call understanding what the other person says the first time. I have found, though, that if I simply say, "I'm sorry, I didn't understand that", that they are usually very happy to say it again and maybe even slower. I imagine that when the shoe is on the other foot, my clients (I have several for whom English is not their first language, in Columbia and Dubai, for instance) struggle to understand me, but are without fail very patient and we just work through it together. Oftentimes, I will thank them at the end of the call for being so patient.

I'm just trying to do my job the best I can, and I figure that when I have trouble understanding someone, they're just trying to do their job the best they can.

I wish I could pick up on other languages better, but I seem to have such a flat ear (too long in the midwest?) and I've had trouble for months now with fluid in my ears, so I don't even understand my own family sometimes. :)

Exactly!! I have said the same thing before and people have no problem repeating it slower for me to understand. Of course, if geniebelle can't understand people with thick accents, those people should learn to speak properly instead of her taking the time to say a simple "I'm sorry, I couldn't understand you, could you repeat that for me?" to them.

What the fuck is proper english, anyways?! Just because one person can't understand someone doesn't mean that everyone else will have a hard time too. My boyfriend has a very thick South African accent but I understand him perfectly, whereas some of my other friends have a hard time understanding him. I'm guessing that means that because some can understand him and some can't that he should properly learn English?

[JesusFightClub]

JFC, have you ever heard a strong Bristolian accent? That's nearly as hard to understand as Scouse! I'm actually very good at understanding Scouse because I lived in Liverpool for three years and some of aunts and uncles are from there. I have a soft spot for Scouse!

You could be my translator! :)

I am so looking at Bristolian accent on youtube!

[Artemis]

JFC, have you ever heard a strong Bristolian accent? That's nearly as hard to understand as Scouse! I'm actually very good at understanding Scouse because I lived in Liverpool for three years and some of aunts and uncles are from there. I have a soft spot for Scouse!

I like Scouse too, and Geordie.And Scottish accents. It's funny that freejoytoo and I live about forty-five minutes from each other but the accents where she lives in Bristol and where I live in more rural Somerset are different. And another 45 minutes southwest down the motorway, where I used to live, the accent is different again. Then as you go further down into Devon and Cornwall, it changes as you go, getting softer, with more of a burr to it, until 'Where is he?' 'Oh there he is, I can see him' turns into 'Whurr's 'e tu then midear?' 'I sees 'im, thur be 'e tu!'

Soft as Devon cream those accents . . .

[freejoytoo]

I have a friend in rural Somerset! I wonder if she's near you!

I find it so funny that we live so nearby but wouldn't know each other if we passed by in the street!

[Peas n carrots]

My husband's accent is somewhere between Geordie and Border Scots...plus a lot of very local slang thrown in. Thrown into that is a lot of Glaswegian slang and pronunciations (his mum is from Glasgow and he spent almost every school holiday with his gran there).

The pinnacle of hilarity came one time after he recently moved to the US and we had gone out to eat. The waiter asked for DH's order, and he replied. The waiter looked at him dumbfounded, and then finally said "I'm sorry, but I don't speak German."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Three and Done]

I am still waiting for an answer as to why my AMERICAN fiance who SPEAKS ENGLISH needs to "learn how to speak properly"?

Is it because he's Puerto Rican and his accent is Spanish?

[gardenvarietycitizen]

[This thread]reminded me of this news story on NPR. The story was discussing how Salt Lake City, Utah is becoming a second Silicon Valley because it is one of the cities with the highest amount of people who speak multiple languages. The reason for this is because of the Mormon population and that it is required that young adults spend two years doing missionary work. To prepare for this work, they have to learn the language of the country they are going to.

Interesting you mention that.

Ages ago I worked for a machine translation company (something that has contributed to online services now, though it was far before those days) and one of my bosses was a white American guy who spoke Japanese. It was interesting enough that of course everyone asks, how did you end up bilingual like that? Turns out, he was born and raised Mormon, and sent as a missionary to Japan - but they converted him instead, and he didn't come back for quite a while :)

It's interesting to me now hearing Romney speak in French, or his son speaking in Spanish, they learned it as missionaries too. As much as we can snark various things about Mormonism, their language schools are apparently pretty decent (from what I hear, they neglect writing for the most part, but get the basics of speaking down).

[ItISjustme]

My mum had a very strong Glaswegian accent and, after we moved to England, I spent most of my teenage years translating for her. :lol:

Personally, I'm humbled when someone from a non-English speaking country talks to me in English. I so wish I could speak another language.

GB reminds of a doctor I used to work with in Texas. We had a very large hispanic clientele and this moron would insist on only speaking English, telling them that, "You're in the States now. We speak English here", totally ignorant of the fact that some of the families had been in Texas far longer than he.

I loved working in Texas. It gave me the chance to practise my schoolgirl Spanish and I learnt a lot of idiomatic TexMex (that was what one of my hispanic co workers called their version of Spanish). I still use it today and the people who cross me have no idea I'm swearing. :dance:

[Jezebel]

Growing up in a town with a large refugee population was, for me, a huge eye opener. I could go into stores where English was not the predominate language. Ads and signs were in languages other than English, though there was English as well. I was, at times, the only white person there. It was somewhat uncomfortable and I felt like I was very visible. And then I realized, for some people, that's what every single day is like as they go about their day. I'm white, in a majority white society, speaking the majority language. And the only reason I have that HUGE advantage is random chance.

Sadly, geniebell seems to be one of those people who thinks that she deserves that advantage, and God forbid anyone do something that impinges upon it.

This was my experience when I lived in San Francisco, long ago. Most of my neighbors were Mexican and Latin American, with quite a few Chinese and some Southeast Asian immigrants. Everywhere I went, I was surrounded by shop signs and menus that weren't in English, and waited on by clerks and waitstaff who spoke very little English, or spoke it with heavy accents. And not only that, but my co-workers when I was a house painter were mostly Salvadoran, some of whom were new immigrants who were still learning the most basic, survival-level English (and I didn't even have that much Spanish).

So to get through any given day, I had to be patient. I had to wrap my mind around how difficult it is to move to another country as an adult and learn a new language from the ground up. I had to be kind, and treat people as I'd hope to be treated if I was in that situation, and not be another rude, stupid, "Learn English!"-spouting asshole.

And here's the cool thing: thanks to that exposure, I developed a really good ear for accents. To this day I'm still pretty good at understanding many of them right away (though I'm occasionally stumped by some African immigrants' accents because I haven't been exposed to them as much). When a Chinese guy needed help with directions the other day, I understood what he was saying--even with his heavy accent--and was able to help him when others were either unwilling or unable to.

I'd really like to learn at least one other language (ideally Mandarin, or at least resuscitate my long-neglected Spanish). I'd like to get proficient enough to read a newspaper and be understood by native speakers. But finding the time to go take formal lessons? I don't have kids and I don't work crazy hours or have a long commute, and there are several schools in my area where I could go for lessons, and I have the money to pay for them and the transportation to get there--and I still haven't done it because frankly, I have got enough on my plate right now.

So to assert that all immigrants need to do is go take more English classes (and assuming they are offered everywhere, and at a wide range of convenient times)? Yeah. Right, Geniebelle. Why don't you go take some language classes yourself with an extremely high level of proficiency as a goal, and then come back to tell us all just how easy that is, and how anybody can and should just go do that? Because until you develop even the slightest inkling of how difficult that is, then you're just another ignorant bigot, and like most bigots proud of your ignorance.

[fakepigtails73]

Interesting you mention that.

Ages ago I worked for a machine translation company (something that has contributed to online services now, though it was far before those days) and one of my bosses was a white American guy who spoke Japanese. It was interesting enough that of course everyone asks, how did you end up bilingual like that? Turns out, he was born and raised Mormon, and sent as a missionary to Japan - but they converted him instead, and he didn't come back for quite a while :)

It's interesting to me now hearing Romney speak in French, or his son speaking in Spanish, they learned it as missionaries too. As much as we can snark various things about Mormonism, their language schools are apparently pretty decent (from what I hear, they neglect writing for the most part, but get the basics of speaking down).

As a native French speaker I was pleasently surprised at how well Mitt Romney's current French speaking is (saw a vid on youtube, a welcome to French IOC members as part of the SLC 2002 org. com.). I admire native English-speakers that speak French, 1st it's a very hard language to learn and 2nd I love the accent of any native English-speakers talking in French.

I'll always make mistakes either in my written or spoken English-as-a-2nd lang., but that won't stop me from trying to get better at it. My main written probs. are run-on sentences and comma-splices.

[Soldevi]

Hmm... I have read this whole thread. I ponder what does geniebelle mean by "Eastern European accents"? Slavic accents are quite thick, I admit, but still one cannot generalise.

This debate both amused and pissed me off. I have an accent when I speak Swedish, English, Estonian etc. I have tried all these years to mild it down and I know I am understandable in general. There are words which I just cannot pronounce correctly because Finnish language is so different - totally phonetic language with vowel harmony - and it is my mother tongue. Some difficult words for me to pronounce in English languages are for example suggest, itinerary, entrepreneur, irreproachable, jeopardy and so simple word as very. Very is very, very difficult for Finns :D

But...as for one who has learned languages not similar to my own I have to say it is not so simple for everyone. Some are more gifted than others. And geniebelle's attitude towards non-English learners is despicable. Does geniebelle believe that learning a language is a easy job to do and one can speak language fluently in a fraction of time? Try to learn Finnish ;)

And what about countries who have more than one main or official language? In Finland we have two official languages (Finnish and Swedish) and Sami and people have right to use those languages for all government services. Majority of Finns speaks Finnish but we have people who don't understand Finnish at all even though they are (born) Finns and have lived their whole life in Finland. There are municipalities where Swedish or Sami is main language. Is geniebelle going to learn all these languages in these countries? How about Switzerland? Or Canada? Or South Africa?

And what comes to repeating words it just may be that that person has a hearing problem even though he is a foreigner. I for one cannot hear everything if there is too much background noise. I have worked as a sales clerk and I have repeated customer's words just to be sure I got it right what he wanted. Just a normal thing to do.

But geniebelle makes it sound like people should not try to learn to speak fluent English by working. Where else then? Immersion is probably the best way to learn it. I can read and listen all day long English but if I can't ever use it in a real conversation with real people, it isn't the same thing. And what should these people do? Live with government aid and learn language at home or work and learn the language in everyday situations? You can vote with your feet and go elsewhere. No-one forces you to support these people and their employers (those who have thought they are good enough and hired them in the first place).

Summa summarum: learning languages is hard and being able to get rid of the accent is even harder. Be kinder, they are at least learning it. I have understood that most of Americans can barely speak their own mother tongue... ;)

Q.E.D.:

(just for a joke, no offense, really :) )

[Artemis]

Switzerland has four national languages - French, Italian, German and Romansh. The German is a Schwyzerdeutsch variety. All are acceptable. There are also Arpitan and Lombard dialects. One of the cantons, Graubunden, is officially trilingual. Most Swiss are at least bilingual.

My Kenyan friend speaks Kisii, (tribal language) Swahili, ( country language) French (colonial, now second language) and English (global language.)

Geniebelle, are you ever going to answer the questions about your own language learning/understanding?

[holierthanyou]

I think she already admitted earlier this week that she can only speak English.