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"Damn immigrants need to learn proper english!"


xReems

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As to learning to speak English without giving up the accent....the best way I can describe it this. I am from the deep south, and have a southern accent. I have conditioned myself to speak clearly and slowly, use proper grammar, and avoid using any type of slang. But, the southern accent is still there, it's just not as pronounced. I think the same can be done for non-English speakers. I mean, not that exact same way of course, but it can be done.

The truth is that we train our mouths to make certain sounds and our minds to categorize sounds in certain ways. It's not as easy as just pronouncing things carefully.

My fiance is Chinese, and he will have an accent in English for the rest of his life because the sounds of Mandarin and English are so drastically different. I rarely have ever had a hard time understanding him because I want to understand him, and I think that is the difference between me and people who would angrily tell him to learn English.

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Forgot to mention Frothy and his comments on Puerto Ricans and English. Puerto Ricans comprise one of the largest ethnic groups in my city. Every single one of them has told me that they DO learn English in schools down there--it's just that many of them have little need to use it outside the classroom IN A SPANISH-SPEAKING TERRITORY.

And isn't New Mexico officially bilingual? You'd think Frothy would do his homework, but he's preaching to a pretty restricted choir. (And don't make me go all OT on how carbon dioxide is "harmless" because plants love it.)

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Kinda OT but when I was looking for an apartment, I was questioning one of the managers at a complex about the possibility of pet dander (my roomate had an allergy). She said "We can't help the way a neighbor's dog sheds or smells any more than we can help it if you have neighbors from India who are always cooking curry." I'll never forget that. It was kind of taken aback. Would it have been any more proper to say "We can't help it if you have Irish neighbors who are always drunk on stout and make a lot of noise" or "We can't help it if you have really white trash neighbors who may be cookin' something other than food... wink wink."

I hate stereotypes. I don't think accents are hard to understand if you actually take the time to LISTEN. Just because someone has an accent doesn't mean they are less intelligent or less entitled to live somewhere... wtf.

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I moved from South Carolina to South Florida because I missed the diversity. When I was leaving the office today, I smiled because I said good night to a Colombian, a Haitian, a Jamaican American as well as an anglo-American who is married to a Chinese American.

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"Damn immigrants need to learn proper english before working"

If those fundies weren't so stupid they might have realized that immersion is one of the best ways for adults to learn a new language. Also would they rather immigrants be living on the dole or on the streets? They ought to shut up and be glad the guy's working and paying taxes and contributing to society.

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Geniebelle, that's the stupidest thing to say that immigrants with strong accents should condition themselves and speak slowly. Good for you for conditioning yourself but that's you. When my dad came to the USA in '79, he had a very thick Indian accent but overtime his thick accent faded away. That wasn't because of him conditioning himself; it was because he was young and overtime, started losing the accent.

My boyfriend is South African and has a thick Durban accent, even after 5 years of living here. When we go out, majority of the time, the waiters/waitresses have to ask him to repeat himself when he orders something because of his accent. Even then, at work, most of the people he works with ask him to repeat certain things. Do you expect him to condition himself to make his accent not as strong to make you happy?!

I've had a hard time understanding people with thick spanish accents, but, I enjoy it. Why? To me, an accent is sort of an identity. Just because someone's accent is stronger than others, doesn't mean you have the fucking right to discriminate and say those people should speak proper english. They're speaking fucking English, get the fuck over it.

I'm sorry but being Indian, that sounds like racism. There is no right way to "effectively" communicate in proper english, no matter what you say.

Our maid has a thick spanish accent--should I go tell her to communicate in English properly and condition herself to make her accent less noticeable?

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Forgot to mention Frothy and his comments on Puerto Ricans and English. Puerto Ricans comprise one of the largest ethnic groups in my city. Every single one of them has told me that they DO learn English in schools down there--it's just that many of them have little need to use it outside the classroom IN A SPANISH-SPEAKING TERRITORY.

And isn't New Mexico officially bilingual? You'd think Frothy would do his homework, but he's preaching to a pretty restricted choir. (And don't make me go all OT on how carbon dioxide is "harmless" because plants love it.)

EXACTLY. Fiance did indeed learn English in school. However, when he speaks to his family on the phone or the 'net, he speaks in Spanish - which makes perfect sense to me! When I speak to my family and friends, we speak English, because it is the most comfortable way for us to communicate.

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Ok, the customer who had the hissy fit was wrong in acting the way he did. I agree it's a good idea to learn a 2nd (I'm considering taking Spanish & French classes or purchase language learning software). Having said that, why should I have to learn another language or repeat myself several times just to place an order at a restaurant or get customer service/technical support over the phone in my own country? I used to work in a call center, and one of the very first things a customer would ask me "do you speak English" or they would say "thank goodness somebody I can understand." Having an accent is not the problem, but when It's so "thick" that you can't understand anything being said, that's the problem. The fact they can speak a hundred different languages or that I can't speak other languages is beside the point. The fact of the matter is they are here in the U.S. where the primary language is English. So, no, I shouldn't have to learn another language to conduct everyday business or transactions in my own country.

I have no problem whatsoever with legal immigrants (regardless of race, ethnicity, or country of origin). Just to be clear, I'm referring to immigrants who work with the public, not immigrants in general, and I do agree that many immigrants do speak English in an understandable way. And, I'll repeat one more time the customer who pitched the hissy fit was wrong.

My husband is from Scotland, so English is his first language. He has a massively thick accent...so how do you propose solving the accent problem? It's not confined just to non-native speakers.

And yes,, my husband has encountered rude customers for "not speaking English" ....

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I have personally witnessed people making assumptions about Fiance's level of intelligence due to his accent/grammar. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, he is a mechanical engineer, and has also had that same issue with people on the job. This in particular boggles my brain, because how the hell do they think he GOT his degree if he's "dumb"? It makes me sweat to even think of taking all that math, and I have a 3.8 GPA!

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I can see why that bothered you. I am quilty however at times when I'm put on the phone with someone who can't understand me nor I them. The english is so broken up that its confusing and when the person relays things on paper or computer its often wrong or else we misunderstood each other. Its unfair to both them and me when I keep having to ask them to repeat it and they have to repeat back what I said to see if they got it right. Sometimes its better to ask to speak to someone else just so its easier on both of us. In a subway however face to face I wouldn't have a problem. I have no problem understanding Indian's I rather enjoy talking to them -

We have alot of people in this town that can not speak english! Even the Children, we have one school that has spanish speaking teachers , we can't force them to learn our language but we do have to educate them. If the parents don't want them to learn english they request the child go to the spanish speaking school and we have to bus them there. I hate it because shouldn't all our kids be together? White or black families (we have only a handful of black) will not even move into that neighborhood because it would mean thier child would have to go to that school.

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I can see why that bothered you. I am quilty however at times when I'm put on the phone with someone who can't understand me nor I them. The english is so broken up that its confusing and when the person relays things on paper or computer its often wrong or else we misunderstood each other. Its unfair to both them and me when I keep having to ask them to repeat it and they have to repeat back what I said to see if they got it right. Sometimes its better to ask to speak to someone else just so its easier on both of us. In a subway however face to face I wouldn't have a problem. I have no problem understanding Indian's I rather enjoy talking to them -

We have alot of people in this town that can not speak english! Even the Children, we have one school that has spanish speaking teachers , we can't force them to learn our language but we do have to educate them. If the parents don't want them to learn english they request the child go to the spanish speaking school and we have to bus them there. I hate it because shouldn't all our kids be together? White or black families (we have only a handful of black) will not even move into that neighborhood because it would mean thier child would have to go to that school.

We've had this whole thing about regional dialects, but is it OK to snark on SOTDRT written English? Just wondering.

Also. Bilingual education. Do you know what it is? It's not a plot to escape learning English.

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Fiance's English is NOT "so broken up" - it's more that his pronunciation/phrasing is different than the majority of people he interacts with, and his accent is fairly strong.

I do not believe anyone should have the "right" to force another language on someone else. That is their personal choice. If I were to move to a non-English speaking country, should I be forced to learn the language if I chose not to do so? It may be much more difficult for me to communicate with others, but shouldn't that be my choice ?

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Flora - In respect to SOTDRT written English, I believe the snark is a reaction to the fundies belief that "their way" of approaching education is "better" and produces the same (or better) results than the ebil public schools do.

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I think people also forget that languages come much easier to some people than others.

About half the people I know grew up speaking Spanish at home and with friends, bi-lingual classrooms for the most part at school and either English or Spanish at work and with friends.

Some of these people have 0 accent and can easily go back and forth from one language to the other ( often in mid-sentence )

Some of them still have thick accent and difficulty finding English words at times.

A couple of them have a hard time communicating in Spanish.

I greatly admire people who can easily go back and forth from one language to another and have a decent accent, vocabulary and grammar in both - but that is very difficult and a major talent in my view. For many people communicating effectively in a second language is very challenging.

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Hmm, I wonder whether those who complain about the English speaking abilities of others have tried to learn or can actually speak another language. I think some of the problem could be that these people have little empathy because they don't know what it's like to learn a second language, and unfortunately, that's true for many USAmericans.

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I have rarely seen such unity on here. We have people telling geniebelle she's got a problem who pretty much never agree on anything. Then sassyNoz47 with her (frankly, also racist sounding) opinion popped up. So that's like eleventy people who say "this is problematic" and one person who doesn't think Spanish is just as viable a first language as English. If I intended to bang that drum, I would proofread my post before I submitted it. Pro-tip for next time, sassy.

We've had this whole thing about regional dialects, but is it OK to snark on SOTDRT written English? Just wondering.

Since she's having a go at people for language issues, I think all is fair in love and snark forums.

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My neighborhood elementary school is introducing bilingual education next year (planning is happening now). All kids, regardless of their home language, will have school in both Spanish and English, with expectation that they are at grade level eventually in both Spanish and English normal textbooks. I'm not sure where the Spanish language schoolbooks are coming from but I suspect Mexico (seeing as this is the US, they're easy to get and most of the native Spanish speakers are from a Mexican Spanish background already).

I think it's a good plan. You need to have high expectations for kids to learn, and that inevitably involves some stress. The more usual "learn a few words a week, as a game" thing never works out.

Of course, there's always Saturday school! Friends of mine send their kids, unfortunately the closest Japanese Saturday school is an hour drive away, and of course the kids all hate it. Near me though there's a Korean school (they do it on Sunday, apparently), my coworker sends his kids. I always thought Saturday school was an Asian thing too but then I met a woman on the internet from Canada who is Latvian background, turns out they have Latvian school on the weekend!

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Why should they have to learn english? If a family speaks spanish why should english be forced upon them. They have the right to go to any school we have a few ELL's at another school. But most parents prefer them to attend the spanish is first lang school. I do believe they have a transition program for 5th and 6th graders.

I can't speak spanish..I did not disagree with the OP that was rude! It wasn't the mans fault they couldn't understand him.. I only said that I have had problems at times over the phone when I'm talking to someone who can't understand me or I cant them. Its not a everyday thing once in a great while yes.

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Sassy:

The idea behind bilingual education is that kids will learn basic literacy, math, social studies, etc, in the native language and then transition to the second language. I don't know the details of the program in your district. I would be very surprised if they have no instruction at all in English K-4.

You are not a very proficient writer in your native language. Maybe you should work on that.

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Sassy - it could easily be assumed from your first post that you were implying that the predominantly Spanish language school was somehow "less than" other schools in your area. THAT is what people are reacting to.

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Sassy:

The idea behind bilingual education is that kids will learn basic literacy, math, social studies, etc, in the native language and then transition to the second language. I don't know the details of the program in your district. I would be very surprised if they have no instruction at all in English K-4.

You are not a very proficient writer in your native language. Maybe you should work on that.

Our district has immersion programs in Spanish, French, Mandarin Chinese, and Hmong, and they share a German immersion program with another district. The Spanish and Chinese programs go through high school. Eventually the other languages will also. My 14 y.o. grandson went to Spanish immersion. He is half Colombian, English is his home language. He was taught in Spanish from K thru 3rd grade, then English and Spanish. Unfortunately for 4th grade his parents moved to a district with no immersion programs. My 2 y.o. and 5 y.o. grandsons who are 100% Colombian have been raised bilingual. They go to a Spanish speaking day care. Both parents speak both Spanish and English. The 5 y.o. is very fluent in both languages. The 2 y.o. can do things he's asked in English but so far speaks only Spanish words and seems to prefer Spanish. Both boys will be going to a Catholic school that is taught in English. Their parish is Spanish speaking.

We have another district school that is bilingual in Spanish and English but isn't immersion. Some kids are taught in Spanish, some in English per parent request. They are going to try a new program next year but I don't know much about it so won't comment.

I think everyone should have 2 languages. I envy my little grandsons. I took Latin and French in high school, and have studied Spanish on and off through the years. Frankly the most important language now to be fluent in is Mandarin Chinese. That's where so many companies are moving to. But for everyday usefulness I prefer Spanish.

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I had a bilingual education growing up in Ontario. It was a wonderful education and I cannot praise it enough. The children in the French Immersion program always had higher standardized test scores in English than the non-immersion children at the same school. We also had higher grades in the high school classes we took with the Straight English kids (what non-immersion kids are called locally). In French we studied reading and writing (normal English class stuff but in French), math, history, geography, social sciences, French and French Canadian culture and science (until grade 9) and in English we studied reading and writing, art, music, gym, and environmental studies. In grade 9, we started taking science in English but we had additional French classes like Media Studies.

About half of my French teachers spoke 3 or more languages. One interesting thing was that we did not speak with any of the Canadian French accents, instead we spoke with a Parisian accent. We were taught both the Parisian and Quebecois terms if there were variations. My sister has a job that requires her to be bilingual and has lost her Parisian accent and now speaks with a Quebecois accent as she deals with Quebecers daily. My maternal grandmother speaks with a Canadian Prairie French accent.

I don't see what the big deal is regarding bilingual education or having children learn a language other than English. In my experience kids who have a bilingual education develop an ability to go seamlessly from one language to another. We have several German only schools in my area, and the children who attend them also speak German at home. I see these children all the time on Saturdays and they speak perfect English. They pick it up because they grow up surrounded by English and they speak it very well.

Previous generations of my family experienced prejudice and harassment because they were French Canadian and I have great sympathy for the prejudices Spanish speaking Americans experience. My French Canadian family experienced prejudice from the English speaking majority in which they lived (outside of Quebec), though there was a considerable French Canadian population in the area. As a result my grandmother's education was only in English and she only taught her children English in the hopes they would be spared the bigotry and hardships previous generations had endured. We lost much of our culture, traditions and identity in a short time.

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Our district has immersion programs in Spanish, French, Mandarin Chinese, and Hmong, and they share a German immersion program with another district.

I'm so jealous.

As soon as I finish my Spanish studies to graduate, I'll go back to my measly online Mandarin podcasts. Now if only I had had the foresight to take Mandarin when my older brother was...

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