"Damn immigrants need to learn proper english!"

[Terrie]

Excuse me, I don't need any explanations especially on racism. I find it funny that those of you who are from the U.S. are admitting that you have a hard time understanding other American accents and then turn around and call me racist for wanting immigrants to learn to speak English more clearly. Now that's an epic fail and hypocritical among other things. So, why don't you go try to figure out those American accents you're having problems with before you call me racist.

Geez, what a maroon. You can't even decide if the problem is you can't understand them, or they can't understand you. The rest of us are saying "Accents can be tough, but that's the way it is."

[Guest Anonymous]

Excuse me, I don't need any explanations especially on racism. I find it funny that those of you who are from the U.S. are admitting that you have a hard time understanding other American accents and then turn around and call me racist for wanting immigrants to learn to speak English more clearly. Now that's an epic fail and hypocritical among other things. So, why don't you go try to figure out those American accents you're having problems with before you call me racist.

Because I don't think anyone needs to change the way they speak to accommodate me, and you're running around talking about "foreigners" who need to learn to speak English you fucking dimbulb.

[valsa]

Excuse me, I don't need any explanations especially on racism. I find it funny that those of you who are from the U.S. are admitting that you have a hard time understanding other American accents and then turn around and call me racist for wanting immigrants to learn to speak English more clearly. Now that's an epic fail and hypocritical among other things. So, why don't you go try to figure out those American accents you're having problems with before you call me racist.

The difference is that no one thinks those Americans with accents they can't understand should "learn to speak English more clearly".

[holierthanyou]

Excuse me, I don't need any explanations especially on racism. I find it funny that those of you who are from the U.S. are admitting that you have a hard time understanding other American accents and then turn around and call me racist for wanting immigrants to learn to speak English more clearly. Now that's an epic fail and hypocritical among other things. So, why don't you go try to figure out those American accents you're having problems with before you call me racist.

I'm not in the US, but I agree with US posters who call you out on your racism. If you are annoyed because people are saying your hold racist viewpoints, instead of getting your knickers in a twist because people aren't patting you on the head and agreeing with you, why don't you take a step back and really question yourself and why people think you're saying racist shit.

Your feelings are hurt, I get it.

But now you have to put on your big girls pants and try to figure out what the real problem is (hint: it's not everyone else).

ETA: I remember you now from a couple weeks ago when you joined. You started posting a bunch of really sexist stuff, which also had racist overtones in your word choice. People called you on it, you got all angry and blasted everyone, then you came back and apologized and said how you learned so much. Is this part of your routine? Are you just trying to get everyone to yell at you so you can have some big 'epiphany' and claim your eyes have been opened? At first I just thought you were ignorant, and that your blatant sexism and racism were rooted in ignorance. Now I'm beginning to suspect some troll like tendencies for attention. It's not ignorance anymore if everyone is telling you what the problem is and educating you.... (not that it should be our job to educate someone who is proud of their ignorance).

[gardenvarietycitizen]

As far as I'm aware, nobody outside of Scotland can actually understand a Scottish accent :lol: and yet Scottish accents are often considered cool and attractive, and the thicker the better, even when they have to be subtitled for us poor clueless north americans. Funny, that.

I became friends with a Scottish guy online (via USENET!) and we exchanged posts and email for years with no problem. Then one day we met, and I realized I could not understand half of what he said.

Better yet though, he said that *I* talk funny! He apparently doesn't know that Chicago is the center of the world.

In all seriousness though, absolutely Indian English (when spoken as a regular speaker) is just another standard English, just as US and UK English are (and that's ignoring all the varieties in both of those). They have their own dictionaries and their own style guides explaining their own preferred usage, often that is closer to UK English than US English (for obvious reasons) but it's a valid normal unique style.

One of my coworkers is from India (regular English speaker) and I actually like her accent. But, I do like to observe accents. Not too long ago I took a trip around Lake Superior, we went up through Duluth to cross the border. On the way we needed to buy some film cards and stopped into a Best Buy somewhere between Minneapolis and Duluth, the woman who helped us had the thickest Minnesota "ooo" thing going on, it was awesome. Much later on the vacation we were in Sudbury, ON, and while eating at a restaurant I was quite enjoying hearing the waiter's accent. People know about the "aboat" thing but also the "a" is different for me, the word "practice" was on the radio and I'd been noticing that.

So I was there listening to him, when he stopped for a moment, looked at us, and asked "are you from Chicago?" Ha! Busted. Turns out he likes accents too.

MUCH earlier in life, in high school, I met an exchange student from the US (in Japan). She was from Rhode Island, and to her, "dog" has two syllables. She has to go "woh-awk" her "doh-waaaag." This amused me no end.

[formergothardite]

Excuse me, I don't need any explanations especially on racism. I find it funny that those of you who are from the U.S. are admitting that you have a hard time understanding other American accents and then turn around and call me racist for wanting immigrants to learn to speak English more clearly. Now that's an epic fail and hypocritical among other things. So, why don't you go try to figure out those American accents you're having problems with before you call me racist.

You are beginning to behave just like you did in the thread about sexism in the church. You aren't really listening to what people are saying.

The difference between me saying that I have a hard time understanding some accents and what you are saying is that I am not saying that having that sort of accent is a bad thing or that it needs to be changed. You are. It isn't hypocritical for me to call you out for saying people with think Indian accents should go learn English because I'm not saying that people with think Northern acccents should learn to speak different when they come to the South.

[BlackHawk]

I love accents! I truly heart them with a passion. My grandmother's favorite phrase was that American's didn't know how to pronounce their letter's correctly. She was from Ireland and spoke in a thick Irish accent. I loved listening to her stories of the "good ole country". Made my day as a kid!

As for "foreigners" learning to speak English... meh. I have had to work hard to change my mindset based on my family's racism. I grew up hearing "LEARN ENGLISH YOU (insert racial slur)". For now, I think people come here, they come here. It'd be nice if someone attempted to learn English as best they could so they could communicate in emergencies (that's seriously my biggest worry) but it's not my place to judge them. They are doing what they choose to do, so be it. I've never had much of a problem understanding anyone other than a man from Wisconsin. He was born and raised there and I had to ask him to repeat himself multiple times for almost every sentence.

On changing accents... ohh it's always interesting to me. Enunciation of words in any foreign language is damn near impossible for people who are not native speakers. It's damn HARD to decide how this letter should be said when in your language it's said this way. I know my accent has changed over my life, and my accent changes when I speak to people in my dad's family (not very often), when I spoke to people in my mom's family (now never), when I spoke to my friends, and now when I speak to the partner. My dad's family has thick Irish accents, all of them, including my dad. So when I was around them (and when I talk to the few I still speak with) I slipped into an Irish accent. It was natural and the way it was since I was born. Around my mom's family (which is really only her maternal side) everyone had a French accent, as my grandmother is second generation american from France who didn't learn english till she was 7 or so... so my accent mimicked theirs. Especially as a child. Around my friends I had what we call a Kentucky drawl, and now with the partner my Irish accent comes out, because that is what is more comfortable for me. Accents are regional, however, and change with the wind. Look at older people, people who are first generation, or people who are 12th generation... accents change, much like the meaning of words change and the spelling of words change, over time.

[Three and Done]

Interesting coincidence - I just heard on CNN that Ol' Frothy believes that "English should be the official language of the United States".

He's in Puerto Rico campaigning!

Oh, yes, he also expects Puerto Rico to name English as their official language if they want to become an official state :!:

Seriously, this guy F's things up everywhere he goes, and hasn't been laughed out of the race yet?? WTF :?

[No Fun My Babe]

I also love accents and different languages. They are beautiful things, and we all have accents to somebody else not from our region/country. *sips from a glass of lemon worter* ;) Ahhhh, refreshing.

I think it's commendable for someone to work here while learning English. English is a hard language to learn! What better way than to immerse yourself with people who speak it? Most people who come here do not have the luxury of not working. What are they supposed to do, have their eyes taped open while watching cultural films with "Learn to speak English OUR way!" on a loop in the background, while the Pearls are beating them until their speech is "acceptable"? :roll:

I slip in and out of accents too. My ex was a native New Yorker and I definitely picked up some NY inflections. Same goes for my English and German friends, etc.

It's pretty much impossible to speak a language perfectly unless you grew up speaking it. I started taking German lessons in middle school. My German teacher was absolutely amazing and she gave me a life-long love of the language. Butttt... always gonna have an accent.

I just don't understand the ridicule for accents and different languages here in the US. Of course I'm not saying everyone does it, but it seems to be the norm, sadly.

Anyway, we're all human. We can find a way to communicate effectively with each other if we just put forth a little effort.

[Guest Anonymous]

Britches in a wad: nope

My feelings hurt? nope, but I am laughing right now

Take a step back: uh, ok, I guess I could use the exercise

The real problem:

The only dimbulbs around here are those who forget that the majority language in the U.S. is English (per the U.S. Census data). So, based on that fact alone no native English speaker in the U.S. should have to keep saying "what" or "I don't understand" just to order a freaking cup of coffee or ask questions about a bill. And, yes, it is very hypocritical for an American to say "I don't understand certain American accents" and then turn around and blast me for saying basically the same thing about foreign accents. But, whatever. Furthermore, I didn't turn this into a race issue. I was asked what specific accents I have a problem understanding. Just because I have a hard time understanding those accents doesn't mean I hate people from those countries. All I'm saying is they need to learn to speak English a little better. That's not racist. Saying that I hate people from India, the Middle East, Eastern Europe is racist, and that is not what I said or even implied.

As to learning to speak English without giving up the accent....the best way I can describe it this. I am from the deep south, and have a southern accent. I have conditioned myself to speak clearly and slowly, use proper grammar, and avoid using any type of slang. But, the southern accent is still there, it's just not as pronounced. I think the same can be done for non-English speakers. I mean, not that exact same way of course, but it can be done.

As to the video...I understood a little of what he said. But, if I go to that area of Newfoundland, then I should be expected to learn to understand him. Heck, if I move to any country, I would be expected to learn the language of that country.

But, if you think this is still racism on my part, then whatever. I'm going to leave it at that. I simply don't have the energy for another pointless debate that will go nowhere.

[formergothardite]

Genie, did you even read my post? I explained why it wasn't hypocritical for me to say what I said. People who said that they had problems understanding other regions accents didn't say that was a bad thing or something that needs to be changed. That is totally different than what you are saying.

[formergothardite]

The last debate that I remember you having you said changed your mind about sexism in your church, so how was that pointless? Since you are talking about not wanting to have another pointless debate. Did you have other long debates that I missed?

[snarkbillie]

So, based on that fact alone no native English speaker in the U.S. should have to keep saying "what" or "I don't understand" just to order a freaking cup of coffee or ask questions about a bill.

I think this attitude is what people are objecting to. It reeks of privilege and entitlement.

[Conuly]

The only dimbulbs around here are those who forget that the majority language in the U.S. is English (per the U.S. Census data). So, based on that fact alone no native English speaker in the U.S. should have to keep saying "what" or "I don't understand" just to order a freaking cup of coffee or ask questions about a bill.

Again: It's the free market. You don't have a right to only ever encounter businesses where everybody speaks the same way you do and is easy for you to understand. Not legally, not morally. We're living in a capitalist country, and if I, the shopkeeper, want to staff my store only with monolingual speakers of Euskara or Armenian or Navajo, that's MY right. You don't like it? Go shop somewhere else and stop whining about it.

And, yes, it is very hypocritical for an American to say "I don't understand certain American accents" and then turn around and blast me for saying basically the same thing about foreign accents.

You didn't say "basically the same thing". You started off with "I don't understand ANY foreign accent" and then moved into "so nobody with a foreign accent should ever have a job in America unless they eliminate that accent altogether" with a segue into "but I don't care about LEGAL immigrants".

That's not the same thing at all. Perhaps it is you who should learn English if you don't understand this.

That's not racist. Saying that I hate people from India, the Middle East, Eastern Europe is racist, and that is not what I said or even implied.

Racism intersects with bigotry, but it's not actually the same thing. Again, practice what you preach and learn the English language.

I think the same can be done for non-English speakers. I mean, not that exact same way of course, but it can be done.

Says the monolingual speaker. Do you know anything about how second language acquisition even works?

Heck, if I move to any country, I would be expected to learn the language of that country

Again, the ignorant assumption that other countries have one language each. Most of them don't, and most of them are smaller than the US as well! So why the surprise when this country is big enough to support multiple languages?

[holierthanyou]

All I'm saying is they need to learn to speak English a little better. That's not racist. Saying that I hate people from India, the Middle East, Eastern Europe is racist, and that is not what I said or even implied.

Yes, it is racist. What you are saying is racist. You are saying racist shit. I do not know how to be more clear on that point.

Do you limit your concept of racism to having to yell "I hate group x" before it meets your definition of racism?

What the fuck is wrong with you? You are so proud of your ignorance and bigotry, it completely astounds me.

[super skeptic]

Britches in a wad: nope

My feelings hurt? nope, but I am laughing right now

Take a step back: uh, ok, I guess I could use the exercise

The real problem:

The only dimbulbs around here are those who forget that the majority language in the U.S. is English (per the U.S. Census data). So, based on that fact alone no native English speaker in the U.S. should have to keep saying "what" or "I don't understand" just to order a freaking cup of coffee or ask questions about a bill. And, yes, it is very hypocritical for an American to say "I don't understand certain American accents" and then turn around and blast me for saying basically the same thing about foreign accents. But, whatever. Furthermore, I didn't turn this into a race issue. I was asked what specific accents I have a problem understanding. Just because I have a hard time understanding those accents doesn't mean I hate people from those countries. All I'm saying is they need to learn to speak English a little better. That's not racist. Saying that I hate people from India, the Middle East, Eastern Europe is racist, and that is not what I said or even implied.

As to learning to speak English without giving up the accent....the best way I can describe it this. I am from the deep south, and have a southern accent. I have conditioned myself to speak clearly and slowly, use proper grammar, and avoid using any type of slang. But, the southern accent is still there, it's just not as pronounced. I think the same can be done for non-English speakers. I mean, not that exact same way of course, but it can be done.

As to the video...I understood a little of what he said. But, if I go to that area of Newfoundland, then I should be expected to learn to understand him. Heck, if I move to any country, I would be expected to learn the language of that country.

But, if you think this is still racism on my part, then whatever. I'm going to leave it at that. I simply don't have the energy for another pointless debate that will go nowhere.

You know what? It's not that hard to pay a bit more attention and once in a while have to ask "pardon?" because you didn't understand it. It's part of life!

Also, IT'S NOT A RIGHT TO ORDER COFFEE OR BUY A SANDWICH FROM ANY RESTAURANT (you know what is a right though? being allowed to own/operate your own business). If you hate it so much, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. Or is that too hard, too?

In the meantime, those of us with the mental capacity to tolerate minor difficulties and differences will continue to buy products we like from places we like, regardless of whether an employee's accent is a little hard to understand. You go live in a bubble. I hear it's lonely there.

[Conuly]

I think this attitude is what people are objecting to. It reeks of privilege and entitlement.

Ah yes, that too. Heaven forbid that members of the majority ever have to exert themselves a little, or take an extra minute to get their coffee! :roll: No, all the effort should be done by the poor minority members. (And you don't get rich working behind the counter at Starbucks last I checked, whether you speak English fluently or not.)

[valsa]

The only dimbulbs around here are those who forget that the majority language in the U.S. is English (per the U.S. Census data). So, based on that fact alone no native English speaker in the U.S. should have to keep saying "what" or "I don't understand" just to order a freaking cup of coffee or ask questions about a bill.

So you think that fact means some poor immigrant who's probably working 3 minimum wage jobs to support a family here and an extended family is another country should have to subject themselves to being shrieked at by a stuck up, racist bitch?

[formergothardite]

Genie - Accents I have a hard time understanding are bad and the people need to change them if they are going live here.

Everyone else - Accents we have a hard time understanding are not bad and the people don't need to change them if they are going to live here.

Genie, we are saying the total opposite of you, that is why we aren't being hypocritical.

[No Fun My Babe]

The only dimbulbs around here are those who forget that the majority language in the U.S. is English (per the U.S. Census data). So, based on that fact alone no native English speaker in the U.S. should have to keep saying "what" or "I don't understand" just to order a freaking cup of coffee or ask questions about a bill.

Compassion and understanding. There are so many ways for us to understand each other and get our points across, even if it takes a little longer sometimes.

You mentioned you have a disease which gives you hearing problems. I sympathize. I also have a disease, and one of the things it affects is my ability process what people are saying. Sometimes someone will be talking to me and I'll have to ask them to repeat, because it sounded like gibberish. I've had people get annoyed with me before and it sucks. I've had people yell at me (like people yell at "foreigners") because I guess they somehow think screaming at the top of their lungs will magically make me understand.

Once I understand what they're saying, if they're being rude, I usually tell them to fuck right off. It's not your fault you have hearing issues. It's not my fault I have brain processing issues. It's not their fault that they're not totally fluent in a language and need things repeated.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

I think this attitude is what people are objecting to. It reeks of privilege and entitlement.

Exactly. Since when are all businesses required to serve the majority? Plenty of the places I shop don't bother with English so much because they don't expect to ever have monolingual English-only customers, and so they don't cater to that audience. It's still a free country, so they can do what they want. Maybe they won't get your business, but they quite possibly never particularly aimed their store at you to begin with so don't really care for your business, they already have plenty. (Granted, that's probably not the issue at the local Subway, but I suppose it depends on the neighborhood.)

The other issue with the entitled customer in the original post is that upon hearing requests to "please repeat your order" or whatever, the INSTANT assumption is that the guy has English problems, rather than that the place is loud, the guy is tired, or whatever else. Heck, for all we know, the customer ALSO had some non-local accent. And yeah, ideal world completely aside, in the US in 2012 very often your skin color absolutely affects whether or not people will make such snap judgements about you. Flub up some language while looking "American" (read: white or black) and odds are people will assume you're tired or whatever. Do it while looking "foreign" (read: Asian or various kinds of "brown") and all of a sudden it's "why can't you speak English" or "where are you from?"

[emilymea]

I speak with a strong southern accent - one specific to my metro. My best friends are from Puerto Rico, Minnesota and Texas. Our accents are really different and from time to time we have to ask each other to explain a regional saying or say something again. It's no big deal.

We have a large foreign community in my city. Do I have a hard time understanding the Indian or Bengali accents? Yes. Should these English speaking citizens of my town be expected to lose their accents? No. Their accents are part of their culture. I just deal and ask them to repeat things I don't understand. Over time the accents have gotten easier to understand.

I also volunteer at a local black school. I'm white but I've picked up the dialect of the students. I mess up phrases from time to time and he kids laugh at me, but it's all good. I'm beginning to understand their grammar structure and can communicate better with them. They learn business English from me better now that I've taken time to understand them. It's a win/win situation.

Please excuse my rambling. This topic makes me hot.

[Hane]

I taught English as a second language for over twenty years, and this topic makes me more than hot! I could gladly sentence all those USAdians who complain about "foreign accents" to Icelandic language camp. I've met many otherwise fairly intelligent people who can't distinguish between ungrammatical English and a foreign accent.

At one point, I taught a classful of Polish women my age, whose kids were my daughter's classmates. The kids came here at 10 or 11, not speaking a word of English, and were multilingual honors students in about a year. Meanwhile, their poor mothers held fulltime jobs, took care of their homes and families, came to English classes at night, studied hard, and beat themselves up because they couldn't reach the level of fluency their kids had managed with almost no effort.

Thank you, Flora Poste, for the "Little Britain" sketch--you see that kind of ridiculous attitude (stupidity/racism/xenophobia/cluelessness/self-absorption) all over the US.

And, bougalou thank you for the "American Tongues" clip showing the hard truth about USAdians and their attitudes about other people's accents. Some New Yawk accents make me feel right at home (I was born in NYC), while thinking, "Please, God--don't let this guy say anything racist." And certain Southern accents connote condescension, racism, or generalized bigotry, to my ears. I learned a lot about myself in the brief soundbite from Molly Ivins (RIP).

The Newfoundlander clip made me laugh: Back in 1995, we traveled up the western coast of the island, and were intrigued to hear the distinct regional differences in small communities (of a few hundred people) only a few miles away from each other. I bought lobsters from a man who sounded as Liverpudlian as the Beatles!

And, jaynie, I wouldn't care if a Scotsman's accent were so thick I couldn't understand a word he said--I still think it's the sexiest sound in the world! My sister once had the "misfortune" of sitting beside a Scot in an airport waiting area for hours, and after a while she started thinking "Husband who?"

[Patsy]

Yes, actually, you do.

Or rather, you speak the correct grammar (learning grammar is something all typically developing children do naturally and normally, with no explicit help needed) for your own dialect.

And that grammar is just as intelligent and complex as the prestigious one, too.

I think it's helpful to teach kids who speak "non business standard" dialects at home that what they speak IS a dialect, with rules and a full functioning grammar, that outsiders in fact would have to explicitly learn - meaning, it's very much NOT just "broken English" with each kid and family doing their own thing. It has RULES, like any other language or dialect. It's their community in-group language.

I've heard that way out, in some Aboriginal schools, they have bilingual programs. One language - the way they speak English, the other language - standard Australian English. That way, it's not even approached as 'today we'll teach you how to speak English PROPERLY', but 'here are two perfectly equally valid ways of speaking; we'll teach you the one that most people in power use, but you can do maths just worrying about understanding the maths itself'. Apparently it works quite well, but I'm not familiar with any studies showing that.

[Hane]

And that grammar is just as intelligent and complex as the prestigious one, too.

I've heard that way out, in some Aboriginal schools, they have bilingual programs. One language - the way they speak English, the other language - standard Australian English. That way, it's not even approached as 'today we'll teach you how to speak English PROPERLY', but 'here are two perfectly equally valid ways of speaking; we'll teach you the one that most people in power use, but you can do maths just worrying about understanding the maths itself'. Apparently it works quite well, but I'm not familiar with any studies showing that.

I saw a terrific piece about this on TV a while back: a teacher teaching his African-American sixth graders about the differences between standard American English and African-American vernacular English. He did it in a way that engaged the kids--it was obvious how much they'd learned as they played a grammar game--and did not insult the language patterns they'd grown up with.