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"Damn immigrants need to learn proper english!"


xReems

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First of all comparing a Southern accent to a foreign accent is like comparing apples to oranges. Second, no, it's not racist to expect to be able to conduct business transactions in English and be able to understand what is being said without having to repeat yourself.

It's not like comparing apples to oranges at all. I grew up bi-lingual, but the first time I went to Texas, I felt like I was on another planet. I didn't understand a word, and I've been speaking English my whole life.

Maybe the man didn't ask the customers to repeat things because of language problems. Maybe he was tired, or had a headache, or maybe it was just loud in the shop. I work at a coffee shop in a very touristy area and have to ask people to repeat things all the time because I simply cannot hear them. Many tourists who fit the "ugly American" stereotype have rolled their eyes at me because they thought I just couldn't understand English. Don't you ever have a bad day?

Edited to add that there's a large American community in my city, and I've met many people who've lived here for years and still can't say much more than thank you in German. Those are the very same people I've heard complain about employees with accents at call centers.

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Guest Anonymous

It's not like comparing apples to oranges at all. I grew up bi-lingual, but the first time I went to Texas, I felt like I was on another planet. I didn't understand a word, and I've been speaking English my whole life.

Maybe the man didn't ask the customers to repeat things because of language problems. Maybe he was tired, or had a headache, or maybe it was just loud in the shop. I work at a coffee shop in a very touristy area and have to ask people to repeat things all the time because I simply cannot hear them. Many tourists who fit the "ugly American" stereotype have rolled their eyes at me because they thought I just couldn't understand English. Don't you ever have a bad day?

Ummm...not really, I make it a point to speak clearly when talking to my clients, ordering at a restaurant, speaking with customer service, etc. Now if I can't hear them, that's different, and I'll say excuse me, but I didn't hear you. Strangely enough, I'm having a problem hearing anything right now because I have Meniere's Disease and recovering from ear surgery. But not being able to hear is not the same as not being able to understand.

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First of all comparing a Southern accent to a foreign accent is like comparing apples to oranges. Second, no, it's not racist to expect to be able to conduct business transactions in English and be able to understand what is being said without having to repeat yourself. Furthermore it doesn't matter if they are first or tenth generation American. English is the primary language in the U.S., and they need to learn effectively communicate in English. The same would be true of me if I moved to a country where English isn't the primary language. I should be expected to learn to effectively communicate in that language. And as to the racist part...I believe I said regardless of race, ethnicity, or country of origin. Apparently you missed that part.

I am a born a raised Southerner and there is a person that works at a local restaurant who is Northern and I swear to god I can't understand a word she says sometimes. So yeah, it is a totally legitimate comparison.

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Fuck, I did something similar to the guy behind the counter when I worked at Subway- people would tell me their order in a rush, the whole fucking order, and I have ADHD so of course I could only remember the first two or three things. And I'm a white person born to white people from Ohio who only speak English.

I'm going with what Trynn said, these fundies are probably assholes who only speak one language, and never bothered to take more than the required foreign language units in high school, so they probably only know English and a tiny bit of Spanish. I took four semesters of French across high school and college, learning a language is really hard and I don't doubt if I went to France right now I'd have a hard time making myself clear. A thick accent does not mean someone does not know the language. It just means you're used to making certain sounds in your native language and it's hard to make new sounds in another. Fuck, I lived in England for three years, ages three to six, and STILL have a trace of the accent, after a decade and a half.

It pisses me off that in the US, knowing another language as well as English means that you are low-class, uneducated trash. Unless it's French, Mandarin Chinese, or Japanese. In which case, you're cool and upper-class. I don't fucking get it.

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Guest Anonymous
First of all comparing a Southern accent to a foreign accent is like comparing apples to oranges.

Please explain the difference between someone speaking with an accent that is difficult to understand who is from the United States, and someone who is speaking with an accent that is difficult to understand who is an immigrant. I'm from the South, and I had trouble understanding people who were from another state that is also in the South. (Kentucky.) They might have had trouble understanding me, too, I don't know. We were all pleasant to one another and we managed.

Maybe we could also consider the fact that there are places in the United States where United States citizens speak Spanish as a first language. There is no national language in the United States and USians who speak Spanish as a first language are just as valid as USians who speak English as a first language.

You need to check yourself on this one.

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geniebelle -

I would have much more difficulty understanding a thick southern accent than a thick Spanish accent. If I am talking to a customer service representative at a call center I would have a harder time with the southern drawl and idioms. Although I admit I do have a hard time understanding thick accents from many languages, because I am not exposed to them as often as the Spanish.

If you are going for a public service than I agree that you should be able to speak to someone in English, but if they have a thick accent you just may need to work your way through it a little bit. If you are just shopping somewhere and you can't understand the person you can politely make the small extra effort to understand them and have the option of not shopping there again if it is too difficult for you. I don't recall that being able to communicate with the Subway shop owner is part of the constitution :roll:

My Spanish is terrible, but because it is the predominant first language where I work I have picked up much of the grammar in my speech ..it's kind of embarrassing to sound like English is my second language when I don't actually HAVE another language :oops:

For a time when I was young I was a waitress at a noisy club - talk about being unable to hear people and having to make them repeat themselves !

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No. Read the thread again.

Trying your best to get along in English, especially keeping your cool when insulted = good

Racist intolerance shown to non-white immigrant, especially when you aren't any better yourself AND you get hostile and break the law = bad

Yes, racist intolerance is not acceptable as is getting hostile and breaking the law. I am talking about people insulting others accents and ways of speaking in a thread about how it is wrong to insult others accents and ways of speaking. It's comments like this:

Have you ever noticed that most of the people who complain about those who speak English as a second language don't speak English very well themselves?

Just the fact the husband could not speak English properly with his double negative made both of them sound like hypocrites.

If they learn proper English then they'll lose their chance to become rising stars in the GOP

That is what I was referring to. Tell me, what is "proper" English? How do you speak English well? Is the Boston Brahmin accent proper English? African American Vernacular English? Southern English? Newfoundland English? What dialect passes your standards?

Double negatives, by the way, are grammatical in certain dialects. Also, there is an interesting documentary on attitudes towards to American dialects called "American Tongues". It's from 1988 but I think a lot of it is still applicable today. I couldn't find it online but there are a few clips on YouTube. Here's a good one:

_vF9g37FCmk

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At least in cases where people get all up in arms about Indians not being able to speak English, I can replay in my head this exchange from the movie version of Outsourced:

Todd (white American call center manager): Basically, you people need to learn about America. It's all about bringing down the MPI. Things go faster if the customer feels they are talking to a native English speaker.

Asha (Indian call center worker): But we are native English speakers. English is the official language of our government. You got it from the British, and so did we. We just speak it differently. I mean, sometimes our pronunciation is better. We say 'internet', and you say 'innernet'.

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Guest Anonymous
I am a born a raised Southerner and there is a person that works at a local restaurant who is Northern and I swear to god I can't understand a word she says sometimes. So yeah, it is a totally legitimate comparison.

I don't seem to have that problem. I have family in Michigan-understand them just fine. I have a friend who lives outside of Boston-no problem understanding her, I have a cousin who lives in Australia, no problem understanding her or her husband either. The clients I deal with at work are scatter all across the country, and I have no problem understanding them. If I have ever asked them to repeat anything it was because I didn't hear them,

Please explain the difference between someone speaking with an accent that is difficult to understand who is from the United States, and someone who is speaking with an accent that is difficult to understand who is an immigrant. I'm from the South, and I had trouble understanding people who were from another state that is also in the South. (Kentucky.) They might have had trouble understanding me, too, I don't know. We were all pleasant to one another and we managed.

I have no problem understanding various American accents, and maybe that's because of my job. The accents I have a problem understanding are thick accents by immigrants who haven't learned how to effectively communicate in English...primarily people from India, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe (ironically though my primary care doctor is from India, and one of my managers at work is is originally from Sudan, and I don't have a problem understand them). I have absolutely nothing against people of different ethnic/racial groups. In fact I love learning about different cultures. I just feel that if they are going to live and work in the U.S. (not tourists), then they need to learn how to effectively communicate in English, and you don't have to give up your accent to do that. As I said before if I were to move to a foreign country I would be expected to learn the language of that country instead of doing the Jim Bob Spanglish thing.

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First of all comparing a Southern accent to a foreign accent is like comparing apples to oranges. Second, no, it's not racist to expect to be able to conduct business transactions in English and be able to understand what is being said without having to repeat yourself. Furthermore it doesn't matter if they are first or tenth generation American. English is the primary language in the U.S., and they need to learn effectively communicate in English.

Survey says.... Wrong! I have a hearing problem that gives me a terrible time with other accents over the phone. (Everyone has an accent, mine is just that flat northern midwestern one). I often find certain "foreign" accents easier than some "native" ones, because second language speakers tend to speak more slowly and enunciate carefully. (Also, "foreign" accent is a silly term. Technically, a Canadian accent --closer to my own than any southern one-- is "foreign"). Before you whine about other people's accents, get your hearing checked.

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I have no problem understanding various American accents...

The accents I have a problem understanding are thick accents by immigrants who haven't learned how to effectively communicate in English...primarily people from India, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe....

I just feel that if they are going to live and work in the U.S. (not tourists), then they need to learn how to effectively communicate in English...

Oh. My. God.

So much fail here. I am having heart palpitations, so I will let someone who is more patient than I explain the racism to you.

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The accents I have a problem understanding are thick accents by immigrants who haven't learned how to effectively communicate in English

then they need to learn how to effectively communicate in English, and you don't have to give up your accent to do that

So...the accent makes them hard to understand, but they don't have to give up the accent to communicate effectively in English? I'm not sure how that works. And I don't see how a shopkeeper asking a customer to repeat himself means that he can't communicate effectively in English.

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I don't seem to have that problem. I have family in Michigan-understand them just fine. I have a friend who lives outside of Boston-no problem understanding her, I have a cousin who lives in Australia, no problem understanding her or her husband either. The clients I deal with at work are scatter all across the country, and I have no problem understanding them. If I have ever asked them to repeat anything it was because I didn't hear them,

I have no problem understanding various American accents, and maybe that's because of my job. The accents I have a problem understanding are thick accents by immigrants who haven't learned how to effectively communicate in English...primarily people from India, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe (ironically though my primary care doctor is from India, and one of my managers at work is is originally from Sudan, and I don't have a problem understand them). I have absolutely nothing against people of different ethnic/racial groups. In fact I love learning about different cultures. I just feel that if they are going to live and work in the U.S. (not tourists), then they need to learn how to effectively communicate in English, and you don't have to give up your accent to do that. As I said before if I were to move to a foreign country I would be expected to learn the language of that country instead of doing the Jim Bob Spanglish thing.

And I have an easier time with some Indian accents over some American ones. What exactly is your point? And English isn't the language of our country. We have no official language, plus if they are speaking English, just with an accent, then they have learned the language.

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Guest Anonymous

Oh. My. God.

So much fail here. I am having heart palpitations, so I will let someone who is more patient than I explain the racism to you.

I wish I thought I could help, but she's just not getting it. She refused to acknowledge the fact that the U.S. has no national language and that plenty of USians don't speak English as a first language, nor do they have any obligation to.

geniebelle, anyone can look at numerous posts of yours and determine for themselves if they think you have a problem with racism. I think you do. Just because you aren't saying "sheesh I hate the shit out of non-white people" doesn't mean that there aren't issues you need to address. There are lots of people here telling you that what you're saying is problematic, you might want to step back and examine that for a while.

**Edited because I wasn't happy with my word choices.

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I don't seem to have that problem. I have family in Michigan-understand them just fine. I have a friend who lives outside of Boston-no problem understanding her, I have a cousin who lives in Australia, no problem understanding her or her husband either. The clients I deal with at work are scatter all across the country, and I have no problem understanding them. If I have ever asked them to repeat anything it was because I didn't hear them,

I have no problem understanding various American accents, and maybe that's because of my job. The accents I have a problem understanding are thick accents by immigrants who haven't learned how to effectively communicate in English...primarily people from India, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe (ironically though my primary care doctor is from India, and one of my managers at work is is originally from Sudan, and I don't have a problem understand them). I have absolutely nothing against people of different ethnic/racial groups. In fact I love learning about different cultures. I just feel that if they are going to live and work in the U.S. (not tourists), then they need to learn how to effectively communicate in English, and you don't have to give up your accent to do that. As I said before if I were to move to a foreign country I would be expected to learn the language of that country instead of doing the Jim Bob Spanglish thing.

As it's been pointed out up-thread, English is an official language of India and a large number of Indians speak it very well. Who says they are the ones who aren't effectively communicating?

Besides, as several people have pointed out, learning a second language is extremely difficult and it's hard to be motivated enough to do it if most people you encounter understand you well enough, or are willing to make the effort. I lived in Denmark recently and tried to learn some Danish, but as the vast majority of Danes that I encountered spoke perfect English (albeit accented), I never really got past my language insecurities and only ever used the words for hello and thanks on a daily basis.

I also think it's rather telling that people always pick on Indian accents regardless of how well the person in question actually speaks it, and yet ignore similarly strong WASP accents. My father has a thick Welsh accent which is actually not dissimilar to the stereotypical Indian accent in terms of cadence, and which has some unusual pronunciations besides. Yet, although people sometimes have to ask him to repeat things, I've never heard anyone suggest that he needs to learn to "communicate effectively in English" (he is English first language, as it happens, although there were apparently plenty of people in the older generation of his family who were native welsh speakers who sounded just the same). I have long suspected that being a middle-class white Brit has something to do with that. As far as I'm aware, nobody outside of Scotland can actually understand a Scottish accent :lol: and yet Scottish accents are often considered cool and attractive, and the thicker the better, even when they have to be subtitled for us poor clueless north americans. Funny, that.

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And I have an easier time with some Indian accents over some American ones. What exactly is your point? And English isn't the language of our country. We have no official language, plus if they are speaking English, just with an accent, then they have learned the language.

My husband has a coworker from India and sometimes we do have trouble understanding each other. I have trouble understanding him and he has trouble understanding me, because we both have thick accents. Sometimes he can't think of the specific word he wants so he texts me to ask and often I can't figure out a sticky grammar situation so I text him to ask. He is way better at English grammar than I am. Some of the things he knows I don't think were ever covered at my school. I feel like the fact that he was able to learn another language (English is his 4th language!) as an adult and learn it well enough to be able to help me (English is my native language) is so amazing and worthy of respect that I don't mind that sometimes I have to ask him to repeat something, I just feel bad when he has to ask me to repeat something. I've lived here my whole life, I should be more fluent, haha.

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English, like any language, is fluid. There are no fixed rules because we don't speak in a bubble away from any outside influence. I'm English but I had a damn hard time understanding Chaucer and even Shakespeare at school - and they are (supposedly!) in English.

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. As far as I'm aware, nobody outside of Scotland can actually understand a Scottish accent :lol: and yet Scottish accents are often considered cool and attractive, and the thicker the better, even when they have to be subtitled for us poor clueless north americans. Funny, that.

Which also brings up the question of dialect vs. language. Is Lowland Scots just a really strongly accented dialect, or is it a separate language?

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Uhh.. Fiance is American, yet speaks with a pronounced Spanish accent because he was born in Puerto Rico, and Spanish is his first language.

His English grammar and spelling are occasionally "off", but he is a very intelligent man (a mechanical engineer), and it makes me quite angry when assumptions are made about him due to nothing more than his fricking accent or pronounciation!

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The thing about accents is that, most of the time, there isn't a fucking thing you can do about it.

The accent we have is formed in our very, very early years. We learn how to form our words based on what we hear around us from fellow native speakers - you learn not only the language itself, but how to talk the way you do (i.e., your accent) from hearing your parents and other relatives jabbering at you constantly. In the early years of life, the palate is soft and malleable and as we grow older, the palate hardens - this is one of the reasons why it's so difficult to learn a foreign language later in life, among other things.

Do I wish I could speak French like a native? Hell yes. I have a remarkably good accent for an American but no matter how hard I try, I will never sound French because I'm not. If I can't form the French "r" sound exactly right, it's not because I'm just not trying hard enough and too obtuse to want to bend to the linguistic and cultural will of whatever Francophone country I'm in at the time - it's because my mouth is literally just not shaped that way. That is not how I have learned to use my tongue and the space within my mouth to form words. It has absolutely nothing to do with effort or will.

This is the same of any person coming to America, from any non American English-speaking background. It's physical. It's mental. It's more complex than "just not wanting to" or being unwilling to learn/try. Does it take a little more effort to understand someone who is speaking English with a heavy accent? Yeah. Deal with it. You're a citizen of the world.

I will never forget when Obama said that all students should have to be exposed to a foreign language. He received such backlash - how DARE anyone suggest that we ought to learn multiple languages in AMERICA?! - that he actually had to remind people that learning is a good thing. Interacting with people of other cultures is a good thing.

I am absolutely convinced that anyone who says that people/immigrants need to "learn to speak goddamn English" even though they're doing just fine, albeit with a strong accent, has never been abroad and experienced the frustration that comes with not being able to be understood. There is no way you could go through that and come out the other side with absolutely no empathy for others who are trying to do the same thing with you.

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First of all comparing a Southern accent to a foreign accent is like comparing apples to oranges.

Somebody's never heard a Geordie accent.

The accent we have is formed in our very, very early years. We learn how to form our words based on what we hear around us from fellow native speakers - you learn not only the language itself, but how to talk the way you do (i.e., your accent) from hearing your parents and other relatives jabbering at you constantly. In the early years of life, the palate is soft and malleable and as we grow older, the palate hardens - this is one of the reasons why it's so difficult to learn a foreign language later in life, among other things.

1. Actually, there's evidence that people change their accents even as they get older. We now have voice recordings of people speaking in different decades, and the way they speak DOES change.

2. This has nothing to do with the hardening of the soft palate. LOLWUT? It has everything to do with how you move your tongue and lips, but your mouth doesn't literally change shape. That's why accent reduction therapists are able to make a roaring business, because they DO get results. (Also, please remember that accents aren't just about how you form words, but also about word choice, syntax, pragmatics, manners....)

Which also brings up the question of dialect vs. language. Is Lowland Scots just a really strongly accented dialect, or is it a separate language?

Do they have an army and a navy?

English, like any language, is fluid. There are no fixed rules because we don't speak in a bubble away from any outside influence. I'm English but I had a damn hard time understanding Chaucer and even Shakespeare at school - and they are (supposedly!) in English.

Ahem:

Ye knowe eek, that in forme of speche is chaunge

Withinne a thousand yeer, and wordes tho

That hadden prys, now wonder nyce and straunge

Us thinketh hem; and yet they spake hem so,

And spedde as wel in love as men now do;

Eek for to winne love in sondry ages,

In sondry londes, sondry ben usages.

(Geoffrey's basically saying there that language changes, and we think that the way people spoke a long time ago is strange, but they REALLY spoke that way and fell and love and all that just like we do.)

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And for geniebelle (and any others) who are insisting that language and accent are two totally separate things, and that she can understand accents just fine...

Here is a (white!) Canadian from Newfoundland speaking with a Newfoundland accent...

12lCfrsYIfc

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There are places in Germany where I don't understand a word people are saying, just like there are British accents that I need subtitling for. Big Fat Gypsy Weddings, anyone? Even in tiny Denmark, people from Copenhagen will laugh at the funny accent of people from Jutland. I very much doubt that anyone understands every single dialect in a country as huge as the US without any problems.

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2. This has nothing to do with the hardening of the soft palate. LOLWUT? It has everything to do with how you move your tongue and lips, but your mouth doesn't literally change shape. That's why accent reduction therapists are able to make a roaring business, because they DO get results. (Also, please remember that accents aren't just about how you form words, but also about word choice, syntax, pragmatics, manners....)

Re: the hardening of the soft palate - this was an issue that came up in my music studies as well, so I would argue that there is definitely a correlation, but YMMV.

I'm also aware that accents aren't just about forming words and all of that. For the sake of the argument, my point was more along the lines that accents aren't *just* about effort and that it's a multidimensional thing. There definitely is the overarching idea in the US that even if you speak English perfectly well, but with an accent, that you still aren't speaking English and "need to learn", as has already been brought up in this thread.

I'm also not saying that accents can't change, because they certainly do. But as you mentioned, there are recordings of people in different DECADES with changed accents. Anyway - all I'm saying is that there are more factors involved than just personal will.

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Guest Anonymous

Excuse me, I don't need any explanations especially on racism. I find it funny that those of you who are from the U.S. are admitting that you have a hard time understanding other American accents and then turn around and call me racist for wanting immigrants to learn to speak English more clearly. Now that's an epic fail and hypocritical among other things. So, why don't you go try to figure out those American accents you're having problems with before you call me racist.

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