This is just stupid - Republican debate

[Guest Anonymous]

Using that logic how does not being able to change you're opinion not make you a fundie as well?

Do you ever read what people actually type, or do you just start rage smashing your keyboard as soon as you see you've been quoted? I never said I wasn't able to change my opinions. I was raised fundie. I used to be anti-choice. I had an awful lot of information shoved in my face that made me realize I was incredibly wrong to hold those beliefs. If someone shows me, or I research and find for myself, a body of real evidence from reliable sources that contradicts my beliefs - I change them.

I used to say (and believe) things that were sexist, classist, and ableist, and sometimes I mess up and still do. I got schooled on how fucked up those things are, and I strive to change my beliefs and my words so that I'm a better person who isn't hurting other people because of my wrongheadedness.

**ETA: Post typed before geniebelle edited her post that I was replying to.

**ETA 2:

As for empathy, my empathy is for the working class that are losing jobs on a daily basis because somebody can't play fair or by the rules.

Oh what the fuck ever, undocumented workers are not causing the citizenry to lose jobs on a daily basis. You'd want to talk to the big business owners and corporations that are sending the jobs overseas and to Mexico because there are less/no environmental regulations or minimum wage requirements. Again, there are absolutely field worker jobs available. Citizens will not do them.

And empathy, ha! You have no empathy for the girls and young women in your patriarchal church who are being taught that they are welcome to do the jobs that the men don't want to do, but they aren't allowed to be pastors or deacons. That would be the specific instance I was referencing in my previous post.

[bubbabearzle]

Someone correct me if I am wrong. America spends a lot of money on health care already. People who are poor wait until they are very sick to go to the ER. If they can't pay their bill, the government picks up the tab. Spending money on preventative health care would actually save us money.

You are correct. Wish more people woulod realize it!

[Guest Anonymous]

Well...it's kind of hard not to "rage smash" when you're being called something you’re not. I'm sorry for what you have been through..truly I am. But do not assume you know what kind of lifestyle I live based on a few message board posts. My life was vastly different than yours. Yes, I grew up conservative Christian, and still am. I had a stay at home mom, and that was choice. My father never, ever physically or emotionally abused my mother or my sister (my only sibling) and I. I was not a sister mom expected to take care of my sister. We went to public school and college. We got to do all the normal things teenage and young women got to do. We were never, ever told or encouraged to be frumpier-wearing, submissive, helpmeet, stay at home brood-sows. We were never taught to be weary of the outside world, other beliefs, or of people of different races and backgrounds.

As far as my church goes, yes, there is no female leadership. But that does not equal misogynistic or sexist. But you disagree...fine...I get that. However if you think it is then the same applies to thousands of Christian denominations, and the vast majority of women in those denominations go on to complete higher educations, and even hold leadership roles in the workplace. Furthermore, would a fundie minister have gone out of his way to help an abused woman get the help she neeeds for herself and her kids, advise her to divorce her abusive husband, and go off on the abusive bastard telling him to turn himself in & take what's coming to him? I don’t think so. From what I’ve read about fundie preachers they seem to blame the woman for not being submissive enough and tell her it’s her fault. I’ve also stated that my church is making progress and that I want to help with that progress. Leaving and saying fuck you accomplishes nothing, except maybe pushing away from change. Also, I wasn’t “bragging†on myself or my church with my post. I honestly thought what I heard would be something FJ would like to hear given what we know about Gothard/Vision Forum and the like. It never occurred to me that people would react the way they did. But, I was wrong, and should have known better and should have thought it through before posting. As to why I won’t leave my church….I refuse to leave a place and people who have helped me through some of the most difficult times of my life without making me feel like a 3rd class citizen or a woman who needs to be put in her place. As to quiverfull and fundies….both disgust me. They have taken God’s word and turned into legalism, and in the process have given all Christians especially conservative ones a bad rap. I see beautiful, intelligent girls being beaten down by these doctrines and their bodies being abused by multiple pregnancies. Trust me, this is a far cry from most of conservative Christianity.

As for my stance on abortion, I don’t think I could ever have an abortion. But, I do believe a woman has a right to choose for whatever reason. I have never and will never shame a woman or think lesser of her for making that choice. I define my self as pro-life, because I would like to work toward a point in time when abortions aren't necessary due to lack of birth control and lack of knowledge of women's health. I know that is not how the rest of the word defines pro-life, but that is how I define it FOR ME not the public. I am also pro birth control and Plan B. I know I put my foot in my mouth with my comments on the ultrasound thread. I knew it was anti-choice legislation. I was only trying to point out that an ultrasound/medical exam before ANY medical procedure is a good idea to protect the health of the woman. I never meant for any of that to mean ban abortions or that I supported the legislation as it was written.

The Christmas decorations are a pet peeve of mine, because I do feel in some ways freedom of religion is being turned into freedom from religion. Private businesses are being encouraged not to put up Christmas or other religious decorations. I have also noticed that when someone bows their head in prayer in a public restaurant they are given dirty looks and even scowled at. I feel in those instances our government has no right to interfere. I will admit that constitutionally, I was wrong about the displaying of Christmas decorations on government property.

As for my comments on welfare…I only stated what I have personally seen and what people I personally know have told me. I never once said those who abuse welfare spend their money on luxury items. Abuse of the welfare system is wrong regardless of the reason why. I also never implied that anyone on FJ or anyone else who has been or is on welfare is a bad person and doesn’t deserve it. I believe in the welfare system. Without it a lot of us wouldn’t be here today and the homeless population would make up the majority of U.S. citizens. I just want to see a crackdown on abuse, and more help for struggling families.

I also believe illegal immigrants need to be sent back from whence they came regardless of race. The key word here being “illegalâ€, which means against the law. I believe all workers regardless of job type should be paid a fair wage for a day’s work. Just because a job is grueling, hard work, doesn't mean they should low wages considering the hard work they are doing. If illegal immigrants are being paid under the table, they are indeed taking jobs away from Americans, and tax revenue is being lost because the money earned is not being reported to the IRS. I am also against the outsourcing of jobs to other countries. In my field especially (tech support), jobs are being outsourced. So, I could very well find myself in the unemployment lines at any time. I want all of this to stop and corporate America be reigned in.

Although I haven’t posted on this topic, I am all for healthcare reform. Everyone deserves access to healthcare…everyone. I don’t fully support Obama’s plan, but it’s a step in the right direction. It just needs some tweaks. People shouldn't die because they don't have access to healthcare.

I know I do a lousy job of expressing myself and come across as rude and offensive, and you probably thing I am now. Heck, I fully expect to be ripped yet another one for posting this, but I thought I would try explaining myself. I came to FJ because I hate the fundie movements (despite what you think I'm not fundie) and want to speak out and snark about them. I’m not a troll, since trolls usually stick around for a day or two and leave, and I have no intention of leaving. Besides, why would another fundie make snarky remarks about other fundies? I’m also not looking for sympathy or anything else, and I'm not attempting to back track. I’m just explaining myself. And, I’ll add…I think I should stay away from certain topics since that’s where I seem to be the most rude & offensive.

Now if anything I just wrote still makes you think I'm a holier than thou fundie then so be it. All of us have different beliefs , none of which make one of us makes one of us a better person than the other or our beliefs more valid or invalid.

[AudreyE]

We might both be right. The guys my husband talks to would give the jobs to absolutely anyone now that their options are limited, but they say they just can't get Americans to stick around for more than a day or two. So, it may be true that they targeted illegals before AND it may be true that they can't find anyone else to do it.

[AudreyE]

I think you're both right, just coming at this from different angles, and the "person" you're both blaming (correctly, imo) is the corporations/employers who perpetrate these systems. Low wages and dangerous work make people who have other options (citizens) less inclined to do agricultural work, and companies are less inclined to make sure they're offering a living wage and safe conditions, preferring to court undocumented workers. The person at fault here is neither the american labors or the undocumented workers, its the people who prey off of laborers.

Sounds about right. I just don't know why the conservatives who are complaining to my husband now are the same ilk who wanted things tighter in the first place. We seem to have this inability to admit to ourselves that illegals come here, because we invite them (under the table anyway). They aren't coming here and beating us down for jobs. Americans are facilitating this, so deal with the Americans.

[AudreyE]

As it happens, I think universal health care is a better "return for our money" than a fence, even if the fence could in fact control immigration (I don't know if it could). The difference, which is all I mentioned, is that one seems to me more likely to pay for itself. I don't think healthcare would pay for itself anytime soon (although someone did make a good point about preventive care). However, health care is a better return for our money considering the costs--absolute, not financial--of human suffering.

And there is the fundamental difference between liberal and conservative fiscal thinking.

[Avalondaughter]

You seem unaware of reports that illegal immigrants likely pay about $80,000 more, over a lifetime, into taxes than they use in services.

I don't think it's the immigrants who are receiving these benefits. It's their CHILDREN, who are US citizens and thus as entitled to benefits as the child of US citizens.

[Guest Anonymous]

Sounds about right. I just don't know why the conservatives who are complaining to my husband now are the same ilk who wanted things tighter in the first place. We seem to have this inability to admit to ourselves that illegals come here, because we invite them (under the table anyway). They aren't coming here and beating us down for jobs. Americans are facilitating this, so deal with the Americans.

True, but I still think illegal immigrants should be sent back from whence they came. As I said illegal means against the law. That shouldn't be too hard to understand. I also agree we need to go after business who court illegal immigrants.

[Guest Anonymous]

TL;DR

Thanks for telling us your thoughts on yaoi, but your frantic oversharing has fuck all to do with anything. You keep telling us all how you're not racist, you're not sexist, you're not fundie, etc. but contrary to what you say, your cumulative posts do reveal who you are. Why should I buy it when you tell me you're not something that all of the available (provided by you, without duress) evidence says that you damn sure are?

In the immortal words of Groucho Marx - "Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?"

All of us have different beliefs , none of which make one of us makes one of us a better person than the other or our beliefs more valid or invalid.

Wrong again. If you don't support equality for women, then someone who does is a better person than you. If you're a racist, someone who isn't is a better person than you. If you hit kids, someone who doesn't is a better person than you. Those are all beliefs and they are not all equally valid.

[Guest Anonymous]

Ok, you know what, I've tried to be nice & clarify some of the things I have said. It is now obvious to me that you have a a corn cob up your ass, have some kind of ax to grind, and hate anyone who doesn't agree with you. Your posts prove to me that you are nothing but a bitter, intolerant, cold-hearted bitch incapable of seeing anything outside of your little bubble of what you consider to be right and wrong...the very same things you practically accuse me of being. So, get over your I'm a reformed ex-fundie self, because at the end of day you still are one, only a very different breed of one.

[Guest Anonymous]

Ok, you know what, I've tried to be nice & clarify some of the things I have said. It is now obvious to me that you have a a corn cob up your ass, have some kind of ax to grind, and hate anyone who doesn't agree with you. Your posts prove to me that you are nothing but a bitter, intolerant, cold-hearted bitch incapable of seeing anything outside of your little bubble of what you consider to be right and wrong...the very same things you practically accuse me of being. So, get over your I'm a reformed ex-fundie self, because at the end of day you still are one, only a very different breed of one.

Oh goodie, the old "not allowing people to have a pass on their misogyny and racism makes me just as bad as they are!" chestnut. Never heard that one before. Nice misogynistic slur you got there. That's definitely helping your your case.

[ShesCrafty]

Geniebelle:

As far as my church goes, yes, there is no female leadership. But that does not equal misogynistic or sexist

Telling women they cannot hold certain roles in society simply because they are women is exactly what "sexist" means. After reading your responses on different threads the last couple of days, I just have to say that your inability to argue rationally and the fact that you can burying you're head so far in the sand regarding the church you attend would be highly amusing if it wasn't so sad.

Please forgive me if I quoted this incorrectly, I don't post often and couldn't figure out exactly how to quote.

[Guest Anonymous]

Oh goodie, the old "not allowing people to have a pass on their misogyny and racism makes me just as bad as they are!" chestnut. Never heard that one before. Nice misogynistic slur you got there. That's definitely helping your your case.

Sorry if the truth hurts.

[Guest Anonymous]

Sorry if the truth hurts.

Oh for - I was being sarcastic, but you actually believe that, don't you?

No. No. NO. Calling people out on their bigotry is not just as bad as being a bigot. You desperately need to sort yourself out. You've got no self-awareness at all.

[Guest Anonymous]

Geniebelle:

Telling women they cannot hold certain roles in society simply because they are women is exactly what "sexist" means. After reading your responses on different threads the last couple of days, I just have to say that your inability to argue rationally and the fact that you can burying you're head so far in the sand regarding the church you attend would be highly amusing if it wasn't so sad.

Please forgive me if I quoted this incorrectly, I don't post often and couldn't figure out exactly how to quote.

Guess what? Not everybody agrees with that! As far as irrational thinking....seems to be a lot of that. Because I'm hearing you're either all super liberal or a frumper wearing fundie. That doesn't sound very logical to be seeing as how part of the liberal philosophy is not believing that life is black and white but shades of gray.

[Guest Anonymous]

Oh for - I was being sarcastic, but you actually believe that, don't you?

No. No. NO. Calling people out on their bigotry is not just as bad as being a bigot. You desperately need to sort yourself out. You've got no self-awareness at all.

No but being a bigot while calling another a bigot is, and that's exactly what you are. You are calling me a bigot but yet you're biased against someone who doesn't fall in line with what you believe. Hmmm....that sound awfully familiar. As to you're last statement, right back at you. Oh, and I knew you were being sarcastic, I jut couldn't resist answering anyway.

[Guest Anonymous]

Guess what? Not everybody agrees with that! As far as irrational thinking....seems to be a lot of that. Because I'm hearing you're either all super liberal or a frumper wearing fundie. That doesn't sound very logical to be seeing as how part of the liberal philosophy is not believing that life is black and white but shades of gray.

Now you're arguing with the dictionary definition of a word. Discriminating against women is sexism. That's not up for fucking debate, it's a fact.

[ShesCrafty]

Guess what? Not everybody agrees with that! As far as irrational thinking....seems to be a lot of that. Because I'm hearing you're either all super liberal or a frumper wearing fundie. That doesn't sound very logical to be seeing as how part of the liberal philosophy is not believing that life is black and white but shades of gray.

Oxford English Dictionary:

Originally: the state or condition of belonging to the male or female sex; categorization or reference on the basis of sex (now rare); (in later use) prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women

2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

I absolutely agree with you that there are shades of gray in most things in life. However, the dictionary definition of the word "sexism" is not one of those things. You can stick your fingers in your ears and argue until you're blue in the face that the sky is green with purple polkadots (or that telling women they cannot hold positions of leadership in your church is not sexist) but that doesn't mean it's true.

[emmiedahl]

My husband works with the Dept of Agriculture, and the conservative landowners where we live are kicking themselves for supporting statewide immigration reform. Nobody will bring in their crops. Some work Americans just won't do. So... doesn't pay for everyone.

Most undocumented workers don't just amble over the border. They pay people to smuggle them. A fence won't stop them. It just won't.

Further, I am willing to bet that undocumented workers actually give more than they get from the American economy. I live in an agricultural area and if you have eaten fruit, you have eaten fruit from my town and it was picked and processed by undocumented workers. There was a huge INS bust here about a year ago and the company immediately rehired. More undocumented workers. Luckily Central Washington is not lacking in that population. I say luckily, because no American wants to do that work for that pay.

There is a ton of crime in my area, but it is almost all citizens. The undocumented workers tend to be the victims--they live on the "bad" side of town, are reluctant to involve law enforcement and are thus wide open for unsavory types. The news is rather conservative, like the community, and makes a point of telling us whenever a non-citizen so much as jaywalks. The drive-by shootings, murders, car theft rings, that stuff is all done by people with papers.

Undocumented workers are not the enemy. They are here to WORK. They are here to feed families who otherwise won't eat. It is a choice that any one of us would make to feed our children and should not be demonized.

[BravaAmica]

Instead of a fence, wouldn't it make better sense to make it easier for Mexicans who want to work in our country to be able to do so legally?

Yes! Like Ws Dream Act- the amnesty/guest worker's program. But it didn't pass [that I know of].

[emmiedahl]

I just know I'm gonna get ripped a new one, but I'm gonna say this anyway. I know for a fact a lot of these "employers" DELIBERATELY target illegal immigrants for labor. I pass by 2 places where these "employers" go to pick up immigrants by truck loads. So all this "Americans won't do the work" is bullshit!

In my area, they have an open call for picking. You can show up on site, which tends to be out in the boonies, or go to a pick up point. Any American can go to those pick-up points. And they don't.

[Guest Anonymous]

Fine, whatever. That still doesn't change the fact that you seem to think simply because I don't share your beliefs that makes me a fundie. It goes back to the whole shades of gray thing.

[formergothardite]

Genie, like I posted in that other thread, when a little girl in your church comes to you crying because she has just been told that being a women means that she will never be good enough to be a church leader, how are you going to explain to that little girl that your church views her as equal to the little boys her age?

[formergothardite]

By the way, people always seem to think that Free Jinger is open minded about all things, but it isn't. When it comes to saying that women (or men) are not capapble of even trying out for a position just because they are a woman(or a man), people are not going to be all open and accepting.

[Witsec7]

By the way, people always seem to think that Free Jinger is open minded about all things, but it isn't. When it comes to saying that women (or men) are not capapble of even trying out for a position just because they are a woman, people are not going to be all open and accepting.

This.