This is just stupid - Republican debate

[Kelya]

The lowered average American wage is one of the most obvious costs of illegal immigration. It's a question of Americans' being able to compete with illegal immigrants in the workforce. One breakdown of the cost of this in terms of lost American wages can be found here: http://cis.org/node/2294

I can't take any source that involves Steve Camarota seriously.

[Knight of Ni]

I find it extremely ironic that conservatives are screaming about allowing abortion, gay marriage, birth control etc, etc is destroying the ideals that the United States was founded upon but at the same time are attempting to stop immigration. Wasn't our nation founded and built upon the backs of immigrants? Wasn't the United States always seen as a land you could travel to escape the hardships of your own country and build a better life. What about the "American Dream" ? Does not the symbol of America's liberty and freedom, the Statue of Liberty, state

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

If they truly want to return the United States to it original values than they should want to accept all immigrants. They should welcome them with open arms and help them build a better life.

[Witsec7]

Turn them in? Now that's a joke. People do it all the time, even more so after our proposed immigration bill (which last time I checked is still in limbo) that is modeled after AZ's . The current laws are not being enforced which is another part of the problem. And it wouldn't surprise me if a few employers are passing money under the table to law enforcement to look the other way.

Actually your state law isn't in limbo. Parts of it are on stay. AL moved forward with their legislation long after portions of AZs had already been challenged. Rather than modify it so the state could limit the challenges it faced, the people of AL moved forward. And please, AL made headlines for busting an auto executive for not having his papers on him, actually IRRC two, one a German national and another a Japanese national.None of this really matters, AL farmers have filed crop ins. claims that will be paid by US taxpayers who have nothing to do with AL. AL will continue to be one of those southern states that collects more in federal benefits than it pays in taxes, and you'll blame it on the yankees.

You should really be complaining about are the tax incentives the state is giving up to businesses for low wage jobs, and the corporate welfare that is depriving your schools of dollars best spent on education and health care.

[Kelya]

Right; all the solutions you mentioned are questions of policy or policy enforcement.

I should have clarified- through policy, yes, but not through more immigration policy. If we address our own corporate and workers rights issues, and address our economic treatment of Mexico, I think a lot more will get done. Focusing on immigration is like a bandaid, addressing the reasons people immigrate and why they come to the US needs to be a priority. If we simply kick undocumented workers out, I fear we'll end up spending a lot more in economic aid and security costs in the future.

[chiccy]

I can't take any source that involves Steve Camarota seriously.

Camarota obviously takes one side of this issue, but he is smart and quite well-respected. Do you have any specific problems with his numbers?

[Witsec7]

I can't take any source that involves Steve Camarota seriously.

Federal minimum wage: 7.25

AL 7.25

I'll include Oregon 8.8.

Now I will mention that in AL seasonal farm workers are covered by MPSA, which allows piece work in lieu of minimum wage. In Oregon our farm labor is largely unionized so base is minimum wage with 'performance incentives'. Our unions negotiate higher than minimum wage for those employees using power machinery, spray equipment or who work in supervisory positions or in other specialized areas of ag.

Edited to add: The majority of farm labor hiring is done by contracts who are the folks in charge of validating citizen ship. The contractor delivers x number of seasonal laborers to a farmer and gets a piece of their productivity or a flat rate. The farmer then pays the contractor for the crop yield and the the contractor pays the laborer. Labor contractors have fallen by the wayside in OR due to some very bad practices. Workers who are unionized in OR are citizens or in this country legally, our farm workers union also provides pathways to citizenship for those who are immigrants, our farmers contribute financially to this program.

[Kelya]

Camarota obviously takes one side of this issue, but he is smart and quite well-respected. Do you have any specific problems with his numbers?

I'd argue with "smart and well respected." He's gone off on anti islamic, xenophobic rants before and I do not listen to people who do that. Asking me to address his numbers (which I am mathematically unable to do anyways, maybe someone better with math can do that for you if they accept the source) is putting me in the position of validating his work in general, which I will not do. I can critique his language after a quick scan- the use of "natives" instead of "citizens" is just indicative of his bias.

[Guest Anonymous]

Yeah, you know you're going to get ripped because you're full of shit, again. Here you go, an article from fucking GOPUSA that refutes you. Are you trolling or are you really, truly, as dumb as you make yourself look?

This is what happened when the state of Georgia decided to try to stop farmers from hiring undocumented workers, and replace them with people on probation. I grew up on a farm. Farm work is HARD. There are very few people willing to do it for what it pays, and as long as I can get a job doing any-damn-thing-else I am not one of them.

http://www.gopusa.com/news/2011/06/22/g ... in-fields/

First of all the article is referring to probationers, not your average working class citizen, so I'm not inclined to take it seriously. Second...yes farm work is hard work, but farm workers deserve the same rights as other workers. And, essentially what you're saying is fuck workers rights to a fair wage, decent working conditions, and decent benefits...go find some cheap illegal labor. No, I'm not the one full of shit, it's people like you who can't see that this philosophy is taking the labor movement back into the dark ages.

[chiccy]

I'd argue with "smart and well respected." He's gone off on anti islamic, xenophobic rants before and I do not listen to people who do that. Asking me to address his numbers (which I am mathematically unable to do anyways, maybe someone better with math can do that for you if they accept the source) is putting me in the position of validating his work in general, which I will not do. I can critique his language after a quick scan- the use of "natives" instead of "citizens" is just indicative of his bias.

I don't get the issue with not wanting to look at the numbers because you don't want to validate his work. If you disagreed with any part of it, including his postulates, you could critique it.

I think the "natives" thing is standard terminology in these fields and helps avoid confusion, seeing as illegals, too, are "citizens," just of different countries. (Obviously they are "natives" of other countries too, but the term "natives" has an indexical value suggesting a natal relationship to the country of which one is speaking.)

[Guest Anonymous]

Actually your state law isn't in limbo. Parts of it are on stay. AL moved forward with their legislation long after portions of AZs had already been challenged. Rather than modify it so the state could limit the challenges it faced, the people of AL moved forward. And please, AL made headlines for busting an auto executive for not having his papers on him, actually IRRC two, one a German national and another a Japanese national.None of this really matters, AL farmers have filed crop ins. claims that will be paid by US taxpayers who have nothing to do with AL. AL will continue to be one of those southern states that collects more in federal benefits than it pays in taxes, and you'll blame it on the yankees.

You should really be complaining about are the tax incentives the state is giving up to businesses for low wage jobs, and the corporate welfare that is depriving your schools of dollars best spent on education and health care.

This is a double edged sword for AL, if there were no tax breaks, there would be fewer jobs, thus AL beating CA as having the highest unemployment rate. There's a lot that needs to be changed, no doubt.

[Witsec7]

First of all the article is referring to probationers, not your average working class citizen, so I'm not inclined to take it seriously. Second...yes farm work is hard work, but farm workers deserve the same rights as other workers. And, essentially what you're saying is fuck workers rights to a fair wage, decent working conditions, and decent benefits...go find some cheap illegal labor. No, I'm not the one full of shit, it's people like you who can't see that this philosophy is taking the labor movement back into the dark ages.

Farmers in the south have typically resisted unionization of their workers. Even in states with high numbers of illegal immigrant (CA) the majority of these people are not farm labor but working in building trades or the service industries. In CA like OR the majority of farm labor is unionized, there are still some areas of CA Ag that are dependent on labor contractors but they are losing ground. Farm labor that is unionized has better housing, and more equitable pay and negotiated conditions. CA farmworkers unions also offer pathways to citizenship for those in the country legally. Farmers in CA are not required to financially contribute to these programs.

Edited to add:

These diversions have worked really well. I've still yet to hear why a border fence is a better return for our money than universal health care? Had I health care I'd probably have another 10 productive years in the work force. Paying taxes.

[Guest Anonymous]

Regardless if unionized or not the philosophy is still sending the plight of working class Americans back into the dark ages. I never said I was for a "border fence" or that I was against healthcare reform.

EDITED TO ADD LAST SENTENCE

[Guest Anonymous]

First of all the article is referring to probationers, not your average working class citizen, so I'm not inclined to take it seriously. Second...yes farm work is hard work, but farm workers deserve the same rights as other workers. And, essentially what you're saying is fuck workers rights to a fair wage, decent working conditions, and decent benefits...go find some cheap illegal labor. No, I'm not the one full of shit, it's people like you who can't see that this philosophy is taking the labor movement back into the dark ages.

Uh, no. No I'm not. You're making shit up wholesale. I think all workers deserve that stuff, including currently undocumented ones. You're saying we don't need undocumented workers, which is fucking bullshit.

You said (since you seem to have forgotten):

I just know I'm gonna get ripped a new one, but I'm gonna say this anyway. I know for a fact a lot of these "employers" DELIBERATELY target illegal immigrants for labor. I pass by 2 places where these "employers" go to pick up immigrants by truck loads. So all this "Americans won't do the work" is bullshit!

Which is what I responded to. Nothing about workers' rights, you were bitching that undocumented workers are getting hired over Americans that are chomping at the bit to work in a field in the blistering sun all day. That's not true.

Why do you think they were trying to get the probationers to do the work in the first place? There's 11,000 jobs going begging because no one will do them. Produce was rotting in the fields. If there were oodles of true blue American citizens willing to do the work for minimum wage plus production bonus, that wouldn't be happening.

Of course you're a dishonest, purposely obtuse, hypocritical fundie who is allergic to both facts and logic, so your nonsensical response doesn't surprise me. Not to mention a piss-poor example of a Christian who is rocking some serious internalized misogyny. You should really sort out your own fundie issues before you spew forth with many !!! all over Free Jinger. You're a bare half-step from the people you're snarking on and you are laboring under so much self-delusion and cognitive dissonance that you can't see it.

[chiccy]

These diversions have worked really well. I've still yet to hear why a border fence is a better return for our money than universal health care?

I've yet to hear why it's not.

[Witsec7]

Regardless if unionized or not the philosophy is still sending the plight of working class Americans back into the dark ages. I never said I was for a "border fence" or that I was against healthcare reform.

EDITED TO ADD LAST SENTENCE

What philosophy? Is this yet another red herring you want me to chase? Minimum wage has been rising. Some states like the one I live in, have been increasing the minimum age with regularity. We weren't waiting for the feds to do it.

Rather than editing this post I will start another with a cut and past of your first shit bomb.

[Kelya]

I don't get the issue with not wanting to look at the numbers because you don't want to validate his work. If you disagreed with any part of it, including his postulates, you could critique it.

I think the "natives" thing is standard terminology in these fields and helps avoid confusion, seeing as illegals, too, are "citizens," just of different countries. (Obviously they are "natives" of other countries too, but the term "natives" has an indexical value suggesting a natal relationship to the country of which one is speaking.)

I said I am mathematically unable to do anything with his numbers. I have looked at them and I am not able to adequately address them. Someone who understands the mathematical processes used can address them.

I do not take into account "facts" put out by people who I fundamentally disagree with, especially racist xenophobes to boot. I could go through line by line and critique his arguments, (if I had assistance on the math), but the source is inherently flawed because of his racism. I won't believe a racist on immigration, just like I won't believe a KKK Wizard on black people, even if he has the numbers and a center to back up his opinions.

"Natives" is not standard terminology in anything else I have read. Citizens and undocumented workers, citizens and illegal immigrants are both pairings I have seen. The issue is citizenship, not the natal relationship of the person in question. It muddies the issue.

[Witsec7]

I've yet to hear why it's not.

So you see no benefit in the taxes I would pay into the system, could I physically work. But you claim there would be a benefit to a 23mil a mile fence and wall and yet to provide any relevant facts to support your claim.

Please clean your crap off the carpet before you leave.

[chiccy]

So you see no benefit in the taxes I would pay into the system, could I physically work. But you claim there would be a benefit to a 23mil a mile fence and wall and yet to provide any relevant facts to support your claim.

And your "relevant fact" is the example of...you?

[Witsec7]

And your "relevant fact" is the example of...you?

I'm as good as an example as any who would potentially benefit from universal coverage and return to paying taxes.

[chiccy]

experiencedd wrote:

These diversions have worked really well. I've still yet to hear why a border fence is a better return for our money than universal health care?

As it happens, I think universal health care is a better "return for our money" than a fence, even if the fence could in fact control immigration (I don't know if it could). The difference, which is all I mentioned, is that one seems to me more likely to pay for itself. I don't think healthcare would pay for itself anytime soon (although someone did make a good point about preventive care). However, health care is a better return for our money considering the costs--absolute, not financial--of human suffering.

[Witsec7]

As it happens, I think universal health care is a better "return for our money" than a fence, even if the fence could in fact control immigration (I don't know if it could). The difference, which is all I mentioned, is that one seems to me more likely to pay for itself. I don't think healthcare would pay for itself anytime soon (although someone did make a good point about preventive care). However, health care is a better return for our money considering the costs--absolute, not financial--of human suffering.

:violin: well you've certainly changed your tune. Now kindly get the carpet shampoo out and clean up your crap.

[chiccy]

:violin: well you've certainly changed your tune. Now kindly get the carpet shampoo out and clean up your crap.

Nope, I haven't changed my tune at all. Whether something can pay for itself =/= whether it provides a good "return for the money." My tune's the same, which you'll see very clearly if you reread my comments on this thread. :)

I don't see any crap except for a cranky aspersion about crap that someone hurled instead of thinking up an actual argument.

ETA: I reread everything I said on this thread to make sure I had never said a fence provides a better return for the money than universal health care. The only place I came close is when I said "I've yet to see why it's not" rather than immediately pointing out your distorted interpretation of my position. Perhaps that errant comment is what misled you so grievously?

[Guest Anonymous]

There is absolutely nothing you can say to make me change my mind on this issue. Sorry, ain't gonna happen. So rip/snark away to your heart's content. If you can't see that what's going on here is wrong and hurting working class America, then I don't know what else to say.

[Guest Anonymous]

There is absolutely nothing you can say to make me change my mind on this issue. Sorry, ain't gonna happen. So rip/snark away to your heart's content. If you can't see that what's going on here is wrong and hurting working class America, then I don't know what else to say.

Yep. That's why you're a fundie. Because once you've made up your tiny mind, nothing will change it. Not facts, not logic, not empathy for another person, not anything. That's why you can say someone else's fundamentalism/patriarchy is bad, but your fundamentalism/patriarchy is good, even though they're the same product. In the midst of being slightly amused that you proudly admit it, and frustrated as hell that it's the case, I *almost* feel sorry for you.

[Guest Anonymous]

Using that logic how does not being able to change you're opinion not make you a fundie as well? As for empathy, my empathy is for the working class that are losing jobs on a daily basis because somebody can't play fair or by the rules.