This is just stupid - Republican debate

[Knight of Ni]

My husband works with the Dept of Agriculture, and the conservative landowners where we live are kicking themselves for supporting statewide immigration reform. Nobody will bring in their crops. Some work Americans just won't do. So... doesn't pay for everyone.

Thank you. I was just about to mention this. I won't be at all surprised if produce prices increase shortly.

[Witsec7]

The fences we already have don't work. The walls we've built don't work. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

[chiccy]

The fences we already have don't work. The walls we've built don't work. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

We don't have a fence that goes across the whole border. That might be one reason it doesn't work. Another might be that many parts of the fence we do have are ridiculously low and trivially easy to climb. I think money that goes to trying to fix that would be money well spent.

[valsa]

Whether they work is a separate question. If they did work, it could save the country (and states!) a ton of money in pretty much all social services that benefit illegal immigrants. Which is to say all social services.

You seem unaware of reports that illegal immigrants likely pay about $80,000 more, over a lifetime, into taxes than they use in services.

[Witsec7]

We don't have a fence that goes across the whole border. That might be one reason it doesn't work. Another might be that many parts of the fence we do have are ridiculously low and trivially easy to climb. I think money that goes to trying to fix that would be money well spent.

I'm a senior that needs a heart valve replacement, and meds to keep me from going blind. Since I can't afford medical insurance I'd rather have affordable food.

Lets make a path to citizenship for the folks that are here, to preserve their families and their jobs.

By 2009 figures $29 million remained in federal coffers due to unclaimed SS from folks using phoney SS numbers. Solving the problem of immigration will take more than razor wire, guns and higher fences.

riffles

[chiccy]

You seem unaware of reports that illegal immigrants likely pay about $80,000 more, over a lifetime, into taxes than they use in services.

No, I'm aware of those reports. One problem with that number is that the net gain they calculate includes taxes from the children of each illegal immigrant without deducting the social services used by the child. Separately, the fence could pay for itself by raising the average American wage and thus tax revenues. I don't know how quickly the fence could pay for itself, but unlike healthcare it potentially could.

[Witsec7]

...

No, I'm aware of those reports. One problem with that number is that the net gain they calculate includes taxes from the children of each illegal immigrant without deducting the social services used by the child. Separately, the fence could pay for itself by raising the average American wage and thus tax revenues. I don't know how quickly the fence could pay for itself, but unlike healthcare it potentially could.

That figure has been debunked time after time after time. The closest it comes to being true is in those states that receive more in federal benefits than they pay in taxes, AL, MS, LA to name a few.

The GAO as of 2009 has $29 million in unclaimed SS taxes collected and earning interest. This is money that is directly tied to fraudulent taxes.

Fence would pay for itself over time if it kept out illegal immigrants. Healthcare wouldn't.

Oh and thanks for supporting my health care needs, I'm sure that you consider me just some fucking cord wood to be stacked by the side of the road.

edited for a riffle and a fuck you too.

[debrand]

Someone correct me if I am wrong. America spends a lot of money on health care already. People who are poor wait until they are very sick to go to the ER. If they can't pay their bill, the government picks up the tab. Spending money on preventative health care would actually save us money.

[debrand]

Instead of a fence, wouldn't it make better sense to make it easier for Mexicans who want to work in our country to be able to do so legally?

[valsa]

No, I'm aware of those reports. One problem with that number is that the net gain they calculate includes taxes from the children of each illegal immigrant without deducting the social services used by the child. Separately, the fence could pay for itself by raising the average American wage and thus tax revenues. I don't know how quickly the fence could pay for itself, but unlike healthcare it potentially could.

The reports I read took illegal immigrant children's educational cost into account. Also, how would blocking illegal immigrants raise the average American wage?

[AudreyE]

Americans pay a higher percentage of our GDP on healthcare and get poorer outcomes than scads of other industrialized nations. So much of my own income goes to health care that it's not even funny, and I'm a healthy 30-something woman.

Socialize it!

[debrand]

The reports I read took illegal immigrant children's educational cost into account. Also, how would blocking illegal immigrants raise the average American wage?

Wouldn't having more tax payers mean that the government collects more taxes?

[Witsec7]

Someone correct me if I am wrong. America spends a lot of money on health care already. People who are poor wait until they are very sick to go to the ER. If they can't pay their bill, the government picks up the tab. Spending money on preventative health care would actually save us money.

Yes it would. I consider these types of expenses to be investments for our society as a whole. I believe in investing in school lunch programs, Head Start, WIC nutrition education (cut out decades ago). And while they're investing perhaps they would consider investing in my health without requiring me to spend down the meager savings I have and becoming homeless to boot.

riffle

[valsa]

Wouldn't having more tax payers mean that the government collects more taxes?

This is what I'm pretty sure would happen if we got rid of all the illegal aliens. Companies have a certain about of money they're willing and/or able to pay for labor. Say a small company (we'll go with fruit pickers) can afford to pay $60/working hour for labor, so they hire 20 illegal aliens for $3/hour each (illegal aliens who, by the way, overwhelmingly pay taxes on that money)

Now we get rid of all those illegal immigrants. The company can still only pay $60/working hour, so they try to hire 10 American citizens for $6/hour, except no American I know of is going to be able or willing to do twice the work an immigrant does for $6/hour. So the positions go unfilled and the government doesn't get to collect the taxes the illegal immigrants were paying anyway. Or, on the slim chance they can find legal workers and collect taxes on that money, it still is far likely to be paid back to the legal workers through services like Social Security (services that illegal aliens are ineligible for)

[Guest Anonymous]

My husband works with the Dept of Agriculture, and the conservative landowners where we live are kicking themselves for supporting statewide immigration reform. Nobody will bring in their crops. Some work Americans just won't do. So... doesn't pay for everyone.

I just know I'm gonna get ripped a new one, but I'm gonna say this anyway. I know for a fact a lot of these "employers" DELIBERATELY target illegal immigrants for labor. I pass by 2 places where these "employers" go to pick up immigrants by truck loads. So all this "Americans won't do the work" is bullshit!

[Witsec7]

I just know I'm gonna get ripped a new one, but I'm gonna say this anyway. I know for a fact a lot of these "employers" DELIBERATELY target illegal immigrants for labor. I pass by 2 places where these "employers" go to pick up immigrants by truck loads. So all this "Americans won't do the work" is bullshit!

You live in Al. Turn them in, take their plate numbers and call the cops. Its illegal. And being from AL you should know, crops rotted in the fields based on your law because Gringos could do the work. The state of AL collects more in federal benefits than it pays to the feds in taxes. Don't blame that on the immigrants who sweat in the fields to put affordable food on your table.

[Kelya]

I just know I'm gonna get ripped a new one, but I'm gonna say this anyway. I know for a fact a lot of these "employers" DELIBERATELY target illegal immigrants for labor. I pass by 2 places where these "employers" go to pick up immigrants by truck loads. So all this "Americans won't do the work" is bullshit!

I think you're both right, just coming at this from different angles, and the "person" you're both blaming (correctly, imo) is the corporations/employers who perpetrate these systems. Low wages and dangerous work make people who have other options (citizens) less inclined to do agricultural work, and companies are less inclined to make sure they're offering a living wage and safe conditions, preferring to court undocumented workers. The person at fault here is neither the american labors or the undocumented workers, its the people who prey off of laborers.

[daharyn]

I think you're both right, just coming at this from different angles, and the "person" you're both blaming (correctly, imo) is the corporations/employers who perpetrate these systems. Low wages and dangerous work make people who have other options (citizens) less inclined to do agricultural work, and companies are less inclined to make sure they're offering a living wage and safe conditions, preferring to court undocumented workers. The person at fault here is neither the american labors or the undocumented workers, its the people who prey off of laborers.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: Well said.

[chiccy]

Also, how would blocking illegal immigrants raise the average American wage?

The lowered average American wage is one of the most obvious costs of illegal immigration. It's a question of Americans' being able to compete with illegal immigrants in the workforce. One breakdown of the cost of this in terms of lost American wages can be found here: http://cis.org/node/2294

[chiccy]

I think you're both right, just coming at this from different angles, and the "person" you're both blaming (correctly, imo) is the corporations/employers who perpetrate these systems. Low wages and dangerous work make people who have other options (citizens) less inclined to do agricultural work, and companies are less inclined to make sure they're offering a living wage and safe conditions, preferring to court undocumented workers. The person at fault here is neither the american labors or the undocumented workers, its the people who prey off of laborers.

I agree with this 100%, and the only solution is policy (or a fence that works!).

[Guest Anonymous]

Turn them in? Now that's a joke. People do it all the time, even more so after our proposed immigration bill (which last time I checked is still in limbo) that is modeled after AZ's . The current laws are not being enforced which is another part of the problem. And it wouldn't surprise me if a few employers are passing money under the table to law enforcement to look the other way.

[Kelya]

I agree with this 100%, and the only solution is policy (or a fence that works!).

There is no only solution to problems as complicated as immigration and undocumented workers. I feel that a combination of solutions, including addressing the NAFTA issues that have helped to impoverish Mexico, actually enforcing policies that hold corporations accountable for their hiring actions and working conditions, making an actual living minimum wage that must be paid to all, and addressing drug trade trafficked through Mexico would all be more effective than building another fence.

[chiccy]

There is no only solution to problems as complicated as immigration and undocumented workers. I feel that a combination of solutions, including addressing the NAFTA issues that have helped to impoverish Mexico, actually enforcing policies that hold corporations accountable for their hiring actions and working conditions, making an actual living minimum wage that must be paid to all, and addressing drug trade trafficked through Mexico would all be more effective than building another fence.

Right; all the solutions you mentioned are questions of policy or policy enforcement.

[Guest Anonymous]

Absolutely. It's a multi-faceted problem that will require a mult-faceted solution.

[Guest Anonymous]

I just know I'm gonna get ripped a new one, but I'm gonna say this anyway. I know for a fact a lot of these "employers" DELIBERATELY target illegal immigrants for labor. I pass by 2 places where these "employers" go to pick up immigrants by truck loads. So all this "Americans won't do the work" is bullshit!

Yeah, you know you're going to get ripped because you're full of shit, again. Here you go, an article from fucking GOPUSA that refutes you. Are you trolling or are you really, truly, as dumb as you make yourself look?

This is what happened when the state of Georgia decided to try to stop farmers from hiring undocumented workers, and replace them with people on probation. I grew up on a farm. Farm work is HARD. There are very few people willing to do it for what it pays, and as long as I can get a job doing any-damn-thing-else I am not one of them.

http://www.gopusa.com/news/2011/06/22/g ... in-fields/

Republican Gov. Nathan Deal started the experiment after farmers publicly complained they couldn't find enough workers to harvest labor-intensive crops such as cucumbers and berries because Latino workers - including many illegal immigrants - refused to show up, even when offered one-time or weekly bonuses. One crew who previously worked for Mendez told him they wouldn't come to Georgia for fear of risking deportation.

Farmers told state authorities in an unscientific survey that they had more than 11,000 unfilled agriculture jobs, although it's not clear how that compares to prior years or whether the shortage can be blamed on the new law.

For more than a week, the state's probation officers have encouraged their unemployed offenders to consider taking field jobs. While most offenders are required to work while on probation, statistics show they have a hard time finding jobs. Georgia's unemployment rate is nearly 10 percent, but correction officials say among the state's 103,000 probationers, it's about 15 percent. Still, offenders can turn down jobs they consider unsuitable, and harvesting is physically demanding.

The first batch of probationers started work last week at a farm owned by Dick Minor, president of the Georgia Fruit and Vegetable Growers Association. In the coming days, more farmers could join the program.

So far, the experiment at Minor's farm is yielding mixed results. On the first two days, all the probationers quit by mid-afternoon, said Mendez, one of two crew leaders at Minor's farm.

"Those guys out here weren't out there 30 minutes and they got the bucket and just threw them in the air and say, `Bonk this, I ain't with this, I can't do this,'" said Jermond Powell, a 33-year-old probationer. "They just left, took off across the field walking."

Mendez put the probationers to the test last Wednesday, assigning them to fill one truck and a Latino crew to a second truck. The Latinos picked six truckloads of cucumbers compared to one truckload and four bins for the probationers.

"It's not going to work," Mendez said. "No way. If I'm going to depend on the probation people, I'm never going to get the crops up."