Duggar Dad Comes Out Against Transgender Girl Scout

[Nothing2CHere]

Juliette Gordon Low is rolling in her grave. I'm pretty sure she'd be shocked and disgusted at the people who claim to speak for her and the GUSA, the legacy she left behind. She never let her hearing loss stand in her way, and I'm pretty sure she would not allow idiots like JB stand in the way of other girls (I call those who identify as girls, girls) who want to be part of GUSA.

This! Does JimBob even know who founded the Girl Scouts of America??? Does he even realize that Juliette Gordon Low started them because she wanted an organization for girls so they could do all those things the Boy Scouts were doing, like camping? That kind of goes against his strict gender role belief system.

[takers401]

As a former Girl Scout I'm curious how this would be handled in camping situations. When we went for Brownie/Junior Camping trips there were very few males in attendance. I believe we usually had the husband of one of the camp directors who was our cook and that was it. There may have been one other time when a Dad went as he was the only available adult for the troop. However, for the majority it was just the one man in camp. He slept in his own cook's cabin, the camp directors (all female) slept in the directors cabin, and the girls and their leaders (along with us counselors) slept in numerous cabins around the camp.

If this boy were to attend this camp where would he sleep? With the cook in the cook's cabin (seeing as they are both genetically male), with the directors in their cabin (so as not to have a 1:1 relationship between an adult and a child for liability purposes, or with his troop in their own (being the only genetic male among the group)? As a Mom I wouldn't want my son to be sleeping in the cabin with the cook because I'd worry to much about molestation/rape, but additionally as a Mom of one of the girls in the troop I wouldn't want him to be sleeping in the same cabin as my daughter because while he may identify as a girl he's genetically not one and I don't want my seven year old having a sleepover with a boy. So what would have to happen? Put him with the directors, have one of his parents attend and have a cabin for the two of them?

[ladypuglover]

As a former GS and former GS leader and BS/CS leader, Jim Butthead can just go suck lemons through a wall. Boy or girl scouts is not about excluding children but encouraging children to become everything they believe they can be. Good or bad depending on your veiw point, scouting will empower children to fulfill their dreams.

[Austin]

takers, I guess I'm not sure what the threat is. The child identifies as a girl, so therefore, her gender is female. Females sleep in cabins/rooms with other females.

[valsa]

I wouldn't want him to be sleeping in the same cabin as my daughter because while he may identify as a girl he's genetically not one and I don't want my seven year old having a sleepover with a boy.

I don't get this attitude. She is a girl.

What if there were a little girl who was intersexed? Would you feel the same way? What if there were a little girl who had a rare condition like androgen insensitivity syndrome (physically female but genetically male)? Or a girl who had been born a physical boy but had already gotten surgery to become a girl physically? What you're saying is no less transphobic than far_go.

[kb2]

If this boy were to attend this camp where would he sleep? With the cook in the cook's cabin (seeing as they are both genetically male), with the directors in their cabin (so as not to have a 1:1 relationship between an adult and a child for liability purposes, or with his troop in their own (being the only genetic male among the group)? As a Mom I wouldn't want my son to be sleeping in the cabin with the cook because I'd worry to much about molestation/rape, but additionally as a Mom of one of the girls in the troop I wouldn't want him to be sleeping in the same cabin as my daughter because while he may identify as a girl he's genetically not one and I don't want my seven year old having a sleepover with a boy. So what would have to happen? Put him with the directors, have one of his parents attend and have a cabin for the two of them?

I would imagine that each 7 year old would have their own sleeping bag? And nobody would be sleeping naked? So it's not like there would be male genitals all over the place--and in fact, the transgender child may prefer to have privacy concerning nakedness so she could fit in. And what do/would the kids know about their transgendered friend? Wouldn't they see her as a girl--she's referred to as a she, has a girl's name, and dresses like all the other girls. So your child might see it as having a girls-only sleepover, even if she knew about the transgender situation. I wouldn't think it would turn into a slippery slope where she doesn't understand why her boyfriend can't stay the night at 16.

[Visionoyahweh]

With all the birthin' the Duggars are due to have an intersexed child any time now. It will be interesting to see how the respond to it.

[takers401]

takers, I guess I'm not sure what the threat is. The child identifies as a girl, so therefore, her gender is female. Females sleep in cabins/rooms with other females.

I don't think that threat is the right word as I don't feel that having a male sexed person in the room as my daughter would physically or emotionally scar her. I'm thinking more from the perspective that I don't want my daughter to be changing and sleeping in the room with someone who has the physical appearance of a boy. (To me it's one thing to see your younger brother naked but there comes a point where you don't see your older or similar aged brother naked. So seeing a non-family member of the opposite sex naked is definitely not ok.)I don't see it as this child identifies as female so therefor is female so sleeps in the same room with all the other females. That being said, it appears that GS are opening their arms to this child. Since they've done so I'm not going to protest or flounce or anything. I'm just wondering how the logistics would work. Would a leader take the child to the bathroom to get him changed into pajamas? Would they use the open shower area before/during/after the other girls? Or would they have their own facilities to use (I believe the cook's cabin, director's cabin, and main cabin had separate bathrooms)? Or would they have everyone together in cabins, bathrooms, etc because this child identifies as a girl?

[Deleted03]

I don't get this attitude. She is a girl.

What if there were a little girl who was intersexed? Would you feel the same way? What if there were a little girl who had a rare condition like androgen insensitivity syndrome (physically female but genetically male)? Or a girl who had been born a physical boy but had already gotten surgery to become a girl physically? What you're saying is no less transphobic than far_go.

or what if some of the girls are lesbians and enjoy it much more than the heteronormativity of this camp suggests they should?

Changing clothes in front of someone of the other gender/sex/sexual orientation is very very hard subject to tackle. Those "camping" issues assume the children or it also applies to adult to be heterosexual. So what do you do? Do you do all gender mixed? do you do each one a tent? do you separate heterosexuals from homosexuals? Nothing easy in that case... Or maybe you just teach the kids about respect and what rape is/what sexual respect is...

[ladypuglover]

I don't think that threat is the right word as I don't feel that having a male sexed person in the room as my daughter would physically or emotionally scar her. I'm thinking more from the perspective that I don't want my daughter to be changing and sleeping in the room with someone who has the physical appearance of a boy. (To me it's one thing to see your younger brother naked but there comes a point where you don't see your older or similar aged brother naked. So seeing a non-family member of the opposite sex naked is definitely not ok.)I don't see it as this child identifies as female so therefor is female so sleeps in the same room with all the other females. That being said, it appears that GS are opening their arms to this child. Since they've done so I'm not going to protest or flounce or anything. I'm just wondering how the logistics would work. Would a leader take the child to the bathroom to get him changed into pajamas? Would they use the open shower area before/during/after the other girls? Or would they have their own facilities to use (I believe the cook's cabin, director's cabin, and main cabin had separate bathrooms)? Or would they have everyone together in cabins, bathrooms, etc because this child identifies as a girl?

I have to run and take a crochet class but I want to say to others in the thread. She is asking questions so please don't shame her or mock her. Help her see the answers she is looking for just as you all have kindly done for me on many subjects. I see a person honestly asking how would/does this work. Don't yell, explain. You all are awesome with helping someone find the answers.

[Austin]

I doubt very, very seriously that they have to change in front of one another. There are so many little girls who won't even change in front of their own mothers and sisters, so they will have someplace or another where a child, any child, could change in private. There will be at least a bathroom stall for the more modest children. Or a curtain. Otherwise, some children would wear the same clothes the whole time they're there, regardless of gender issues.

I went to summer camp every single summer from age 7 up and while I was not a particularly modest child, I had friends that I went to camp with for years who I never saw in their underwear once over many years.

[PBrooke]

As a fairly social girl, I had, and attended, many, many sleepovers. I don't recall seeing hardly any of my little friends completely naked. Particularly before puberty, there is very little difference between boys and girls if they're keeping underpants on. Even then, kids I knew tended to turn away when quickly changing into pajamas. Group showers were pretty much phased out by the time I hit middle school, over 15 years ago.

Chances are, if your little girl was in a group with someone who was genetically male, she would never see the bits in question, because that person FEELS like a girl and wants to fit in. She'd probably be more self-conscious about privacy than the average person. But again, even little kids without shirts are all pretty much the same.

[polabear]

I went to girl scout camp, and I don't remember changing in front of people. However, there are lots of things a camp could do to deal with the issue. One, there's always kids at camp that need a little extra - I had night terrors well into my teen years, so when I went to 6th grade camp, I slept with a few other girls in a cabin with a couple of counselors. My stepson had the same arrangement, because he had daily medication to take and also had sleep issues.

You could also put the child in a cabin with other kids who are more sensitive or whose parents are fine with it. My stepson has a number of friends with various issues because he's very compassionate and understanding, and we try to be flexible and understanding. Other parents aren't bad people for being like "woah, maybe I don't want the kid on antipsychotic medication sleeping over" - they maybe just haven't had to deal with mental illness before.

[takers401]

I don't get this attitude. She is a girl.

What if there were a little girl who was intersexed? Would you feel the same way? What if there were a little girl who had a rare condition like androgen insensitivity syndrome (physically female but genetically male)? Or a girl who had been born a physical boy but had already gotten surgery to become a girl physically? What you're saying is no less transphobic than far_go.

As in male external organs but female internal organs? Or something else? I'm not sure what you mean specifically by intersexed.

If the child had androgen insensitivity syndrome (thank you for stating what this is) I would most likely have the same questions as I posted above.

If the child had already had surgery to physically look like a girl, I don't know. I've gone back and forth on if I'd be concerned or not and I'm just not sure.

I don't see how my questions are transphobic. I'm not stating that this child is an abomination of God or that GS was wrong. I'm just throwing out a question of logistics for how this child would attend a camp with the other girls. I don't think it's fair to say that anyone who has any questions or concerns regarding this issue is transphobic. Just because someone has a concern doesn't mean that they are going to teach intolerance or hate.

[Witsec7]

Please excuse my use of the wrong term Constance V. But just because a male child identifies as a girl that does not make him a female child. ...

Tell me does it hurt to be this stoopid?

[StarrieEyedKat]

I don't understand the scrutiny of these kid's genitalia. No offense, but kids have been playing "doctor" and "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" since the beginning of time, and no one has been scarred from it. Most likely, the transgender child (hell, all of the children) would change with as much privacy as possible. But if there's a microsecond showing of skin while they're getting pajamas on...so? Most kids don't really care, or at worst they'd be embarrassed regardless of gender. Adults are putting way too much thought into this, and they're piling their own prudishness on their kids.

[PBrooke]

This isn't entirely relevant, but mentioning seeing "your younger brother naked" reminded me of something. Growing up in a family with all sisters and mothers, but having never seen a naked guy until I was sexually aware, I was very unsure about issues of nudity, what's appropriate in mixed-gender families, etc. But I think the issue in our culture is that we combine the issues of nudity entirely with sexuality, which contributes to a whole range of issues. We may not be fundies, but I think we're still too obsessed with what's between our legs.

People who grow up in nudist camps consistently say that as little kids, they have no problem with nudity until approaching adolescence, and then the kids slowly become more self-conscious entirely on their own, as that's just the age for it. While I don't think I would live in a nudist environment for a variety of reasons, I don't see anything wrong with teaching my potential kids that nudity is completely separate from sexuality, and I hope I would let the personality of the kid in question dictate what that means.

All this to say: in a group of pre-adolescent kids, even if it was a little boy and not a transgender girl, who cares?

[takers401]

I would imagine that each 7 year old would have their own sleeping bag? And nobody would be sleeping naked? So it's not like there would be male genitals all over the place--and in fact, the transgender child may prefer to have privacy concerning nakedness so she could fit in. And what do/would the kids know about their transgendered friend? Wouldn't they see her as a girl--she's referred to as a she, has a girl's name, and dresses like all the other girls. So your child might see it as having a girls-only sleepover, even if she knew about the transgender situation. I wouldn't think it would turn into a slippery slope where she doesn't understand why her boyfriend can't stay the night at 16.

Yes, we all had our own sleeping bags and bunk bed when I attended. Nope, no one was naked! (That came later in the sorority! :D ). No, there wouldn't be penises all over the place. But we did change in the cabin together so there was periods of nakedness as we got dressed for the day, got into and out of swimsuits, and got into pajamas for the night. With the cabins there really wasn't much room for privacy, which is where my questions are coming from. The only private area where the bathrooms. When the campground had both sexes one bathroom was for girls and the other boys. With only girls in the campground both bathrooms were for girls and any men on site had to use the cook's bathroom. So there really isn't privacy if this kid wanted some for changing and going to the bathroom. Unless they cleared out one of the bathrooms to allow for changing/using the facilities in private.

On another note - when I'm submitting my replies I automatically go to the end of this forums post. Is there a way to have it automatically move back up to the person I'm quoting so I don't have to look for new posts? I can do this, but I'm just wondering if there's a setting I can change. Thanks!

[takers401]

or what if some of the girls are lesbians and enjoy it much more than the heteronormativity of this camp suggests they should?

Changing clothes in front of someone of the other gender/sex/sexual orientation is very very hard subject to tackle. Those "camping" issues assume the children or it also applies to adult to be heterosexual. So what do you do? Do you do all gender mixed? do you do each one a tent? do you separate heterosexuals from homosexuals? Nothing easy in that case... Or maybe you just teach the kids about respect and what rape is/what sexual respect is...

I really hope that at the hypothetical age I'm using for this question (7) that my daughter wouldn't have feelings of a sexual nature so the lesbian question wouldn't be a concern. I truly hope and pray that my 7 year old isn't sexual in act or thought then. I agree that kids need to be taught respect! I'm not saying that because I'm voicing my concerns and questions to this group my child has the right to belittle or make fun of anyone. (She's 11 month so thankfully sleepovers are not in the near future.) I'm putting out my questions because I didn't see this issue as so black and white and wanted to hear other's opinions.

[Jessica]

Please excuse my use of the wrong term Constance V. But just because a male child identifies as a girl that does not make him a female child.

Yeah, just like adoptive mothers aren't really mothers...

(edit - that was supposed to be sarcastic but didn't come across very well)

[prairiemuffin]

Takers,

Can I ask you a question? If this came to be a realty in your daughter's troop, would you simply pull your daughter out of the troop, or would you get involved in conversations about how the situation could work for all who would be impacted?

I'm asking out of true curiosity, not to be bitchy.

[takers401]

I have to run and take a crochet class but I want to say to others in the thread. She is asking questions so please don't shame her or mock her. Help her see the answers she is looking for just as you all have kindly done for me on many subjects. I see a person honestly asking how would/does this work. Don't yell, explain. You all are awesome with helping someone find the answers.

Thank you! I'm really not trying to change your minds, say you're bad, or you're going to hell like so many other fundies who come on this board do. I'm a lurker that occasionally posts a comment. I'm not a fundie in any way (as I sit in my jeans, watching Spartacus, and ignoring the messy room that desperately needs to be cleaned). I'm truly interested in how this would/does work since I've not personally encountered a situation like this before.

I also just heard my daughter get up so I'm going to have to be absent from this board for a while (she should go down in about four hours for another nap). I'm not flouncing! If she refuses her afternoon nap (like she's been doing lately) I will come back on tonight. Talk to you then!

[kb2]

I think it's like PBrooke said, the transgendered child would probably want to be more private. Although most people could change in a large dressing room, the transgender child could easily just sneak off to a bathroom stall like other girls who are more modest than their peers. She wouldn't necessarily have to be in a big room with everyone else changing, and her absence from those situations could be pretty discrete.

[emmiedahl]

I really hope that at the hypothetical age I'm using for this question (7) that my daughter wouldn't have feelings of a sexual nature so the lesbian question wouldn't be a concern. I truly hope and pray that my 7 year old isn't sexual in act or thought then. I agree that kids need to be taught respect! I'm not saying that because I'm voicing my concerns and questions to this group my child has the right to belittle or make fun of anyone. (She's 11 month so thankfully sleepovers are not in the near future.) I'm putting out my questions because I didn't see this issue as so black and white and wanted to hear other's opinions.

Some children do have sexual feelings at a young age. I did not, so I was surprised to learn this. Nonetheless, it is there, and it is normal enough that in a decent sized troop, one of those little girls has sexual awareness.

As someone else mentioned, gender is an identity while sex is what you biologically are. A child who is a girl by gender identity is a girl, even if they are not technically female. The Girl Scouts has decided that they will focus on gender rather than doing panty checks, which is a solid position imo. I was really upset at first because the media made it sound like a somewhat effeminate boy was joining. I am all about protecting this one feminist space, because it is the only children's group like this in my area. But a transgendered girl is a completely different story. She is a girl, she needs girl time, she needs to grow into a strong woman and that is what Girl Scouts are about.

My daughter has never undressed in front of another person in Girl Scouts. We make sure the girls each have a lot of privacy to avoid awkwardness. I don't want a shy child to stay home because she is worried about undressing in front of others. So I see the external genitalia as a non-issue.

[takers401]

This isn't entirely relevant, but mentioning seeing "your younger brother naked" reminded me of something. Growing up in a family with all sisters and mothers, but having never seen a naked guy until I was sexually aware, I was very unsure about issues of nudity, what's appropriate in mixed-gender families, etc. But I think the issue in our culture is that we combine the issues of nudity entirely with sexuality, which contributes to a whole range of issues. We may not be fundies, but I think we're still too obsessed with what's between our legs.

People who grow up in nudist camps consistently say that as little kids, they have no problem with nudity until approaching adolescence, and then the kids slowly become more self-conscious entirely on their own, as that's just the age for it. While I don't think I would live in a nudist environment for a variety of reasons, I don't see anything wrong with teaching my potential kids that nudity is completely separate from sexuality, and I hope I would let the personality of the kid in question dictate what that means.

All this to say: in a group of pre-adolescent kids, even if it was a little boy and not a transgender girl, who cares?

Abby is eating lunch so i'm posting while I can until she demands attention again.

Maybe you have a point. Maybe I am pushing my own sexual nature on my gender and not seeing it as two young kids having a camp-out.