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Duggar Dad Comes Out Against Transgender Girl Scout


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I think it's like PBrooke said, the transgendered child would probably want to be more private. Although most people could change in a large dressing room, the transgender child could easily just sneak off to a bathroom stall like other girls who are more modest than their peers. She wouldn't necessarily have to be in a big room with everyone else changing, and her absence from those situations could be pretty discrete.

This is what I did all through middle school for PE. Everyone else got dressed in the locker room and I changed in the bathroom stall. Someone asked me once why I did that and I just said "I just like to change privately" or something. They said "Oh, ok. Just wondering" and that was that. The transgendered girl could also just casually get into bed with her clothes on, then quickly change into pajama bottoms under the blankets. No need to cause a stir.

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Takers,

Can I ask you a question? If this came to be a realty in your daughter's troop, would you simply pull your daughter out of the troop, or would you get involved in conversations about how the situation could work for all who would be impacted?

I'm asking out of true curiosity, not to be bitchy.

No, I wouldn't pull her out of her troop. I'd most likely talk to the camp directors and ask what the plan was so that I could be prepared. Prepared for any questions my daughter might have and knowledgeable about the situation so my questions/concerns could be answered. If this child happened to be in our troop I'd most likely talk to the Mom involved to get my information.

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As in male external organs but female internal organs? Or something else? I'm not sure what you mean specifically by intersexed.

If the child had androgen insensitivity syndrome (thank you for stating what this is) I would most likely have the same questions as I posted above.

If the child had already had surgery to physically look like a girl, I don't know. I've gone back and forth on if I'd be concerned or not and I'm just not sure.

I don't see how my questions are transphobic. I'm not stating that this child is an abomination of God or that GS was wrong. I'm just throwing out a question of logistics for how this child would attend a camp with the other girls. I don't think it's fair to say that anyone who has any questions or concerns regarding this issue is transphobic. Just because someone has a concern doesn't mean that they are going to teach intolerance or hate.

Intersexed, in this case, would be a person who has both female and male genitalia. In the case of a child with androgen insensitivity syndrome, they would be completely physically female. They would have a completely female outer appearance. If your supposed hang-up is about girls seeing a penis, why would you question an AIS girl?

Your questions are transphobic because you're letting your ignorance on the issue (either ignorance or prejudice- you pick) gain the upper hand and wrapping it in a thin veil of "won't somebody think of the children!"

First your issue was with them sleeping together. Now it's supposedly with them dressing in front of one another. Here's a simple soluation- EVERYONE gets dressed in the bathroom! That not only protects innocent little girls (the "real" ones) from evil tranny 7 year old penises, but also helps girls who may just be self-conscious or might have a physical disability they don't want others to see.

She is asking questions so please don't shame her or mock her. Help her see the answers she is looking for just as you all have kindly done for me on many subjects. I see a person honestly asking how would/does this work. Don't yell, explain

Nice hand slap.

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Intersexed, in this case, would be a person who has both female and male genitalia. In the case of a child with androgen insensitivity syndrome, they would be completely physically female. They would have a completely female outer appearance. If your supposed hang-up is about girls seeing a penis, why would you question an AIS girl?

Your questions are transphobic because you're letting your ignorance on the issue (either ignorance or prejudice- you pick) gain the upper hand and wrapping it in a thin veil of "won't somebody think of the children!"

First your issue was with them sleeping together. Now it's supposedly with them dressing in front of one another. Here's a simple soluation- EVERYONE gets dressed in the bathroom! That not only protects innocent little girls (the "real" ones) from evil tranny 7 year old penises, but also helps girls who may just be self-conscious or might have a physical disability they don't want others to see.

Nice hand slap.

Some of us don't know much about transgendered issues. I freely admit to being fairly ignorant on the topic, so I appreciate seeing any questions answered within the topic in a non-snarky manner.

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Yeah, just like adoptive mothers aren't really mothers...

Great comparison. this is the most hurtful thing for an adoptive mother, who is already a better mother than the biological one.

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Adults are putting way too much thought into this, and they're piling their own prudishness on their kids.

Agreed. From what I recall of my Girl Scout days, camping was actually only a small part of what we did. We went maybe two or three times a year, sometimes it may have only been once a year. And when we were camping, I don't remember changing being a big deal. No one flashed anyone, we pretty much kept to ourselves. I'm sure there were girls who preferred to change in the bathroom or inside their sleeping bag, I don't remember anyone standing out. Heck, for all I remember, I may have been one of the gals who went into the bathroom, because I was on the shy side. This is only a big deal if the adults involved make it a big deal, there are simple solutions.

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Some of us don't know much about transgendered issues. I freely admit to being fairly ignorant on the topic, so I appreciate seeing any questions answered within the topic in a non-snarky manner.

Then maybe you should educate yourself a little first, probably somewhere that's not a snark board.

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Some children do have sexual feelings at a young age. I did not, so I was surprised to learn this. Nonetheless, it is there, and it is normal enough that in a decent sized troop, one of those little girls has sexual awareness.

As someone else mentioned, gender is an identity while sex is what you biologically are. A child who is a girl by gender identity is a girl, even if they are not technically female. The Girl Scouts has decided that they will focus on gender rather than doing panty checks, which is a solid position imo. I was really upset at first because the media made it sound like a somewhat effeminate boy was joining. I am all about protecting this one feminist space, because it is the only children's group like this in my area. But a transgendered girl is a completely different story. She is a girl, she needs girl time, she needs to grow into a strong woman and that is what Girl Scouts are about.

My daughter has never undressed in front of another person in Girl Scouts. We make sure the girls each have a lot of privacy to avoid awkwardness. I don't want a shy child to stay home because she is worried about undressing in front of others. So I see the external genitalia as a non-issue.

some are indeed more sexual than others.

I remember going to the swimming pool with the school and we were separated male/female to change into swimsuits, never been to camp, so I just assumed it was similar.

ETA: there was no option to change in the bathrooms either. I remember the walls were not up to the ceiling so sometimes when the guys were in the next changing room they would get up there and watch us, which then would result in us all screaming. LOL anyways. I don't understand what is so bad then about having someone with male genitalia in the same bedroom if there is no issue of sexual abuse or of seeing each other's private bits.

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Great comparison. this is the most hurtful thing for an adoptive mother, who is already a better mother than the biological one.

I don't think this means what you think it means. She is saying a transgendered girl is a girl in the same way an adoptive mother is a mother, ie: the first is a girl the second is a mother.

I could be wrong though, but I don't think so.

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...

Some of us don't know much about transgendered issues. I freely admit to being fairly ignorant on the topic, so I appreciate seeing any questions answered within the topic in a non-snarky manner.

May I suggest you use your computer,and do some research?

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I know I know and I meant to agree, and I failed to express it. Sorry. ITA. I could not have come up with a better comparison!

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Intersexed, in this case, would be a person who has both female and male genitalia. In the case of a child with androgen insensitivity syndrome, they would be completely physically female. They would have a completely female outer appearance. If your supposed hang-up is about girls seeing a penis, why would you question an AIS girl?

Your questions are transphobic because you're letting your ignorance on the issue (either ignorance or prejudice- you pick) gain the upper hand and wrapping it in a thin veil of "won't somebody think of the children!"

First your issue was with them sleeping together. Now it's supposedly with them dressing in front of one another. Here's a simple soluation- EVERYONE gets dressed in the bathroom! That not only protects innocent little girls (the "real" ones) from evil tranny 7 year old penises, but also helps girls who may just be self-conscious or might have a physical disability they don't want others to see.

Nice hand slap.

Why can't it simply be that I have questions and am asking these questions on this board. Why does it have to be that my questions stem from fear, hatred, or prejudice? I'll give you ignorance because I have not encountered this situation before that I know of (transgendered child at camp) so I am unsure of the logistics of it all. Maybe other camps have already encountered this situation and logistics aren't a problem at all.

I do have concerns with my daughter being in a sleeping situation with a person who, on the outward, looks like a boy. As I previously stated, I would not remove my daughter from this troop or not allow her to go to camp. I would want to know ahead of time what the sleeping and bathroom arrangements for this child will be so that I can at least know what my daughter would be encountering.

My hesitation with the AIS child is that I feel that girl scouts should be for girls and boy scouts for boys. I don't think that having separate sex segregation is a bad thing. I do not agree with the way ATI does it (boys wall climbing and girls taking care of kids). But I don't think that having a boys only or girls only club/school/sports team is a bad thing. So physically this child (AIS) is a girl but mentally they'd be a boy, right? Is that the right way of thinking about a child with this syndrome? Would it be similar to having a boy in a girl's camp? If so, this is where my concern and questions are from. As the point of girl scouts is to get girls together. If I wanted my daughter in a group that was open to both sexes I'd look at CampFire or YMCA.

My issues aren't only sleeping and getting dressed together, although they are in the mix. It's overall, with a non-female in the group what is different, what is the same, what questions might my daughter ask, what answers do I give? I'm just trying to understand the logistics of all of this so that if my daughter were in this situation I'd have an idea of what to do/not to do. That's all.

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My issues aren't only sleeping and getting dressed together, although they are in the mix. It's overall, with a non-female in the group what is different, what is the same, what questions might my daughter ask, what answers do I give? I'm just trying to understand the logistics of all of this so that if my daughter were in this situation I'd have an idea of what to do/not to do. That's all.

This didn't quite come out like I intended but I'm not sure how to say what I'm trying to say. I understand that in this case the transgendered child identifies as female so my non-female useage isn't correct. But I'm not sure what else to put to get across what I'm intending to say. "with a transgendered child that identifies as female but biologically may not be" - is this better/more accurate?

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I don't think this means what you think it means. She is saying a transgendered girl is a girl in the same way an adoptive mother is a mother, ie: the first is a girl the second is a mother.

I could be wrong though, but I don't think so.

Sorry, that was supposed to be really heavily sarcastic. I was trying to say it's silly to think that because someone isn't biologically this/that, then they just aren't this/that, period. Like, my best friends aren't biologically related to me but they are family (moreso than some of my blood-related family!). The idea that a tansgendered girl isn't really a girl is as crazy to me as saying that my best friends aren't part of my family, or that an adoptive mom isn't a "real mom".

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My hesitation with the AIS child is that I feel that girl scouts should be for girls and boy scouts for boys.

Thanks for this, you just explained a lot.

So physically this child (AIS) is a girl but mentally they'd be a boy, right?

Most women with complete AIS don't even know they have it. They only find out when there's some need to run a test which shows they're genetically male.

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Ok, fair enough, but I would be much more inclined to try and have a discussion with you if you could articulate a little more clearly WHY you would be so concerned.

Look, there comes a time when a child has tough questions that need answers. Whether that's "why does this child have different parts than I do" or "why does Betty Sue have boy parts when she's a girl", you're going to have to decide what answers you're going to give. And if you're looking for guidance from those on this board, you're also going to have to accept that some of us may challenge your comfort zone.

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One, I don't give two flips about what some crazy religious famliy with umpteen children says about it. He won't allow his daughters to do anything except raising his other children so he has no say or opinion on this imho. I don't care if Michelle was in girl scouts. She's not now and her daughters will never be in them if they wanted to join. Their daughters get to sing songs about how much fun housework is (seriously, who likes doing all the housework-I do it because it needs done, but I wouldn't call it fun). What a private organization does that's not illegal doesn't concern them.

Two, about the seven year old sleeping in a room with a boy. I had a couple sleepovers even at ten with a couple boys (and girls). Nothing happened. We weren't even at puberty yet, we were only friends and everyone had their own sleeping space. At seven, it's definitely not a big deal. Also, when I went to camp, not a gs camp, but still a camp, there was a bathroom with a few stalls and separate showers. Most children don't dress in front of each other anyway. If they do, at that age, it's not a big deal. No one makes children dress in front of each other and I don't remember undressing and dressing in front of my friends who were females much at all. That's just more private anyway.

What's the big deal? She believes she's a girl. Sometimes children with gender dysphoria grow out of it, but if she believes she is a girl and is living as one, I don't see 7yos having issues with it. Just explain the condition a little. Do some research if you don't know much. Children are far more accepting than adults anyway. I doubt any of the other chilren have an issue with it in that troop. It's parents enforcing their bigoted beliefs on children and their own unnecessary fears. If the parents and children in that troop don't care, then no one else should either. Let it go-the bigoted people who won't that is. With all the things to worry about with children and safety, a seven year old transgendered girl who 100% identifies as female in my hypothetical daughter's girl scout troop is the last thing that would concern me. Actually, it wouldn't bother me one single bit. Just let the children have some fun. It would be nice to have a co-ed group like this, but single-gendered groups are nice as well. It wouldn't prevent issues though and the issues would still be there in different forms.

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Thanks for this, you just explained a lot.

Most women with complete AIS don't even know they have it. They only find out when there's some need to run a test which shows they're genetically male.

Yup, because they develop the secondary sex characteristics (breasts, etc) and have external female genitalia. So imagine growing up as a girl, getting breasts like everyone else, but maybe you're older than 16 and you haven't started your period yet, so you go to a doctor and find out you have no uterus, no ovaries... and you're genetically XY. I can't imagine how reeling that must be.

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Sorry, that was supposed to be really heavily sarcastic. I was trying to say it's silly to think that because someone isn't biologically this/that, then they just aren't this/that, period. Like, my best friends aren't biologically related to me but they are family (moreso than some of my blood-related family!). The idea that a tansgendered girl isn't really a girl is as crazy to me as saying that my best friends aren't part of my family, or that an adoptive mom isn't a "real mom".

This is exactly how I read it. Both claims are just plain f...king hurtful and not true.

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He would probably drag out his 'circular logic' argument and dismiss it anyway. Also, god...or something.

He wouldn't be able to understand the language in those papers, and neither would Jichelle. She might be able to pronounce them, but she sure is hell wouldn't be able to understand them!

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This is exactly how I read it. Both claims are just plain f...king hurtful and not true.

Exactly. My husband's cousin has 3 adopted children and people say that to her quite often, which is f'ed up. 2 of her kids are biological siblings and she said when she read the report on the abuse they went through as children (she adopted then when they were about 4 and 5 I believe) she about passed out because it was so severe. Oh but she's not a "real mom". They're in pretty serious trouble right now and she's actually had people say to her, "Well why don't you just send them back? Let someone else deal with them." Like they're a product from the store?! What is wrong with people?! :(

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Regarding AIS: I did some reading on it a while back and it's actually pretty rare for a woman with Complete AIS to identify as anything but a heterosexual female. I remember seeing that women with CAIS actually tend to be more feminine than most women, though I don't know how true that is.

It's a really interesting condition in regards to how we perceive sex and gender, but it's not the same as being transsexual.

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Exactly. My husband's cousin has 3 adopted children and people say that to her quite often, which is f'ed up. 2 of her kids are biological siblings and she said when she read the report on the abuse they went through as children (she adopted then when they were about 4 and 5 I believe) she about passed out because it was so severe. Oh but she's not a "real mom". They're in pretty serious trouble right now and she's actually had people say to her, "Well why don't you just send them back? Let someone else deal with them." Like they're a product from the store?! What is wrong with people?! :(

Anybody who says such thing is a mean sag of shit! Lot of bio mothers don't even care about ther bio children because their boyfriends or the booze is more important to them than the kids. these adoptive parents adopted kids, raise them as their own and what do they get in return? Shitty, mean, hurtful words!

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Regarding AIS: I did some reading on it a while back and it's actually pretty rare for a woman with Complete AIS to identify as anything but a heterosexual female. I remember seeing that women with CAIS actually tend to be more feminine than most women, though I don't know how true that is.

It's a really interesting condition in regards to how we perceive sex and gender, but it's not the same as being transsexual.

I don't know about more "feminine," but it is true that they tend to be heterosexual even more than the average. There have been a few cases where they self-identified as male, though.

I think AIS was brought up because genetically, it's someone who is "male", even if they don't even look it.

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The funny thing is AIS - which takers apparently still doesn't understand - doesn't manifest itself in any way, usually, until mid-late adolescence, when the teenager wonders why she isn't getting her period like the rest of her peers. AIS and CAIS and similar conditions are actually fairly common.

I wonder what takers will do in a few years if her paediatrician announces that her daughter sports an XY chromosome pair/ undeveloped internal male genitalia? Immediately shave her head and insist she's a boy? Kick her in the teeth and scream at her for concealing her real sex from her mother all these years? Actually be forced to do her own research on the subject rather than whinging on a message board?

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