Duggar Dad Comes Out Against Transgender Girl Scout

[FloraDoraDolly]

Huh. Really? Which one of these girls below was born male?

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7.

My real question is, why is it anyone else's business what the child in question was born as if they are identifying and living as a female? These girls we are talking about might have been born with penises, but they aren't your stereotypical boy child.

So, again I ask, can YOU identify the transgendered child above?

I recognize several of them from documentaries and talk shows about transgender kids. The child in the second pic (dark hair, black-and-white striped top) is the one who wanted to join the Girl Scouts.

Jim Bob is just being a douchebag here. He doesn't let his kids join ANY outside organizations or groups, so why should he care about the Girl Scouts?

[keeperrox]

I recognize several of them from documentaries and talk shows about transgender kids. The child in the second pic (dark hair, black-and-white striped top) is the one who wanted to join the Girl Scouts.

:roll: You completely missed my point.

[takers401]

And how is this different than a physical girl who has had to deal with these issues for one reason or another? Sometimes cis girls have to grow up earlier than their peers. You have not shown any indication that, mentally, a 7 year old physical boy who identifies as a girl is any different than a 7 year old physical girl who identifies as a girl. Having had life experiences early does not make one inherently different.

Plus, who do you think is more like your daughter- a physical boy who identifies as a girl or a physical girl who identifies as a boy?

And you have still not explained your objection. You first said you didn't think it was appropriate for cis girls to see a trans girl's penis. When we pointed out no one would have to see a penis, you said you didn't want someone who didn't look like a girl to sleep in the same room as your daughter. We then pointed out that a physical boy who identifies as a girl is likely to look even girlier than many cis girls, so you’ve copped out to this.

What is your objection based on? It’s likely that if you didn’t tell your daughter that the trans girl was physically a boy, she’d probably never even know.

What is a cis girl?

I have concerns about a non-stereotypical girl being in the same cabin as my daughter without knowledge, to the best of that ability. This doesn't mean that I flat out refuse to place my daughter in this situation. It doesn't mean that I want to change the new GS inclusion rule. It doesn't mean that I will not allow my daughter to be friends with this person. All it means is that should a child that is not stereotypically a girl be included in my daughter's troop or cabin I'd like to know about it. I'd like to have the opportunity to talk to his/her Mom and ask questions like what do I need to tell my daughter, if anything. Are there things I should or shouldn't do with this child. When taking the troop to the bathroom at the amusement park do I point everyone to the girls bathroom or does the child prefer the male?

[ladypuglover]

:roll: You completely missed my point.

Can I guess? I'm guessing they are all girls. :whistle:

[CanadianHippie]

Can I guess? I'm guessing they are all girls. :whistle:

That's my guess too... I am also assuming all of them have had to fight for the right to call themselves girls... Breaks my heart that people can't just accept someone being who they are and have to stick their nose in and say shit like "no you aren't".

[Witsec7]

or surgically alter her without her knowing

I'm sure that you are unaware that Drs no longer advocate this practice in the best interests of the child. These surgeries were done for the convenience of the parents many years ago but that is no longer the case.

This is a repost for takers edification

[CanadianHippie]

What is a cis girl?

I have concerns about a non-stereotypical girl being in the same cabin as my daughter without knowledge, to the best of that ability. This doesn't mean that I flat out refuse to place my daughter in this situation. It doesn't mean that I want to change the new GS inclusion rule. It doesn't mean that I will not allow my daughter to be friends with this person. All it means is that should a child that is not stereotypically a girl be included in my daughter's troop or cabin I'd like to know about it. I'd like to have the opportunity to talk to his/her Mom and ask questions like what do I need to tell my daughter, if anything. Are there things I should or shouldn't do with this child. When taking the troop to the bathroom at the amusement park do I point everyone to the girls bathroom or does the child prefer the male?

How about you just tell your daughter that everyone is different and not to treat anyone poorly because they aren't a "stereotypical girl".

This is just the ramblings of a non-stereotypical girl/boy though so...

[valsa]

What is a cis girl?

I have concerns about a non-stereotypical girl being in the same cabin as my daughter without knowledge, to the best of that ability. This doesn't mean that I flat out refuse to place my daughter in this situation. It doesn't mean that I want to change the new GS inclusion rule. It doesn't mean that I will not allow my daughter to be friends with this person. All it means is that should a child that is not stereotypically a girl be included in my daughter's troop or cabin I'd like to know about it. I'd like to have the opportunity to talk to his/her Mom and ask questions like what do I need to tell my daughter, if anything. Are there things I should or shouldn't do with this child.

A cis gender person is someone whose physical sex and mental gender are the same.

Non-stereotypical girl? So you'd have concerns about a tomboy staying in the same cabin too?

When taking the troop to the bathroom at the amusement park do I point everyone to the girls bathroom or does the child prefer the male?

Gee, I'd think it was common sense to take a girl to the girl's bathroom, but what do I know.

[PBrooke]

I'm thinking takers is just having issues with this concept (I mean that in a kind way). Takers, remember, a transgender person identifies with whatever gender we're talking about. So a transgender girl may have started life as a boy, but now she's a GIRL for all intents and purposes. That means you use feminine pronouns, you take her to the girls bathroom, she wears a nightgown, you buy her Barbies or whatever else being a girl means to you.

[takers401]

Takers, in all seriousness, please take about 15 minutes and watch this. It may allay some of your fears of what you think your daughter would be exposed to.

TXpViPHnT3U

Thank you for the video. I thought it was so sad at the end when she was talking about needing a surrogate to have children. No 13 year old should be worrying about surrogacy. Earlier I mentioned that at the age of 7 you could tell boys apart from girls. I stand corrected. After seeing that she was born a boy I could pinpoint features that lent themselves to male, but overall I could not tell she was not female.

I still would want to be informed of a transgendered boy/girl being in the same cabin as my child. She talked about the first week of first grade going in and talking to the other students about who and what she was and what that meant. I assume she also answered any questions the other students may have had. She said that if she didn't talk to them they'd eventually find out on their own and rumors might start. As a parent I'd want to be given the same discussion going into a situation rather than finding out after the fact. For example, knowing before camp rather than finding out after camp is over as my daughter is asking questions. If I don't know beforehand how can I properly answer any questions that may be asked.

[Witsec7]

I still would want to be informed of a transgendered boy/girl being in the same cabin as my child. She talked about the first week of first grade going in and talking to the other students about who and what she was and what that meant. I assume she also answered any questions the other students may have had. She said that if she didn't talk to them they'd eventually find out on their own and rumors might start. As a parent I'd want to be given the same discussion going into a situation rather than finding out after the fact. For example, knowing before camp rather than finding out after camp is over as my daughter is asking questions. If I don't know beforehand how can I properly answer any questions that may be asked.

Would you still be willing to surgically 'alter' an intersex child and keep that knowledge from them??

[takers401]

So why should posters continue to feed you information, and be nice about it? I get not immediately understanding that a snark forum isn't the right place for intersex 101, that if you're at this stage you mightn't know there was a term like "intersex 101" to get you started, but you've just said "I actively won't seek information, spoon-feed it to me but make concessions for my ignorance and bigotry." You should be able to figure out that that's fucked, even at this stage.

I want to make it clear - I'm not telling you to stop asking, and I'm not telling off anyone for answering. But I want you to understand that that is quite a problematic way to approach the topic. (One that makes me cranky, even!)

Some more URLs:

http://www.etransgender.com/2011/03/com ... alies.html

http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2010/05/fre ... ersex.html

http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2011/05/sex ... nmark.html

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency ... 001669.htm

http://www.transfaithonline.org/interse ... sex/types/

Well, being nice tends to keep people's attention whereas calling people names and being rude tends to turn off discussion. I recognize that my thoughts are not the majority and therefore I need to have a thick skin to participate in this discussion. I think I'm doing okay and hope to keep talking. I said that I wasn't interested in googling because I really thought my part of the conversation would end after getting a few replies back on the logistics of a physical male in a camp full of girls. I really didn't expect it to take the twist that it did and I'm trying desperately to keep up with the conversation. Internet issues and an extra needy daughter have not helped my web presence. Thank you for the web links. I will read them.

[FloraDoraDolly]

:roll: You completely missed my point.

No, I didn't miss your point. Your point was to post a bunch of photos of male-to-female transgender children and then Takers or somebody was supposed to be shocked that these girls look like any other girls you might see in a schoolyard. Basically, it was a trick question.

[valsa]

I still would want to be informed of a transgendered boy/girl being in the same cabin as my child. She talked about the first week of first grade going in and talking to the other students about who and what she was and what that meant. I assume she also answered any questions the other students may have had. She said that if she didn't talk to them they'd eventually find out on their own and rumors might start. As a parent I'd want to be given the same discussion going into a situation rather than finding out after the fact. For example, knowing before camp rather than finding out after camp is over as my daughter is asking questions. If I don't know beforehand how can I properly answer any questions that may be asked.

And what else would you want to demand? What about a gay child? Or a child with a disability? In my school we had a school meeting (we only had about 100 students) when a severely autistic boy enrolled. His mother wanted to explain why he was the way he was and why he did some of the strange things he did. They certainly didn't notify our parents ahead of time.

Basically, unless you're running the camping trip, how is it any of your damn business?

[prairiemuffin]

If you could give me something concrete to talk about other than a bunch of hypothetical "maybe someday" situations, then I would be happy to. But all you keep doing is spinning the same stuff over and over again, while it's clear the true issue is that you're uncomfortable about a topic that's an unknown to you. And the frustrating part is that you seem utterly uninterested in educating yourself about it.

So, I'm bored now with this. Best of luck. Fortunately for you, chances are relatively slim that you'll be put in this big, scary, situation for real.

Or you will, and not even know it.

[valsa]

Well, being nice tends to keep people's attention whereas calling people names and being rude tends to turn off discussion.

Trust me, I'm being about as nice as I can considering the circumstances.

[takers401]

So, a transgirl would have to be more sure in her identity than her peers and have thought about tough questions. Sounds like the kind of girl I'd want my daughter to be friends with.

Honestly, is there a reason behind your objection that doesn't find its roots in the fact that YOU are uncomfortable with the situation? Something based in objective reality rather than knee-jerk "Ewwww. I don't get it; I don't like it."

Again, I don't outright object. I have never stated that I would refuse to allow my daughter into the cabin or pull her out of her troop.

I'm not sure how to answer your question. A lot of parenting is determined by what the parent feels is best for their child. I feel that knowing about a transgendered child being in my daughter's cabin before a camping trip is important. Not because I want to warn her of the "evil tranny", not because I want to teach her to stay as far away as possible, and not because I want her to belittle or make fun of this child. I want to know so that I can find out information beforehand, be prepared for any questions that she may have, etc. I'm not thinking that this child is going to endanger my child or molest or rape or any other nasty thing. (If that's what you're thinking I'm objecting to.)

[ladypuglover]

We have a young person on our soccer team who was born a girl but prefers dressing as a boy. This young person indentfies as both a boy and a girl but prefers the more male side of his/her life. I'm not sure what to call this young person as I just take Jada's verbal cues as what Jada wants to be called that day. That isn't what matters though, what matters is that this child has been very accepted by Jada's peers for being Jada. Not because Jada is a boy or a girl or both but because Jada is a great athlete, a wonderful friend and very cool. Take your cues from the kids, they aren't hung up on gender, race or religion unless we adults make them hung up on it. Even though I have only sons we have never had issues with Jada spending the night, going to the restroom or any other gender issues. And Jada is only 9 so what hanky panky could Jada do? Jada is just a happy healthy 9 year old.

[valsa]

I want to know so that I can find out information beforehand, be prepared for any questions that she may have, etc.

Sorry but the annoying thing about being a parent is that you don't get a sneak peak into the future and you'll just have to learn to answer your kids' questions as they ask them. Speaking of which, what questions do you think your kid will ask that can't be answered by what people here have already told you?

P.S. It's still none of your damn business what's in any kid's panties besides your own.

[takers401]

Would you still be willing to surgically 'alter' an intersex child and keep that knowledge from them??

As I stated before, no.

[Witsec7]

....

Again, I don't outright object. I have never stated that I would refuse to allow my daughter into the cabin or pull her out of her troop.

I'm not sure how to answer your question. A lot of parenting is determined by what the parent feels is best for their child. I feel that knowing about a transgendered child being in my daughter's cabin before a camping trip is important. Not because I want to warn her of the "evil tranny", not because I want to teach her to stay as far away as possible, and not because I want her to belittle or make fun of this child. I want to know so that I can find out information beforehand, be prepared for any questions that she may have, etc. I'm not thinking that this child is going to endanger my child or molest or rape or any other nasty thing. (If that's what you're thinking I'm objecting to.)

So why don't you address the issues before the exposure?

Frankly I'm not buying your reasoning since its likely you as an adult have been exposed to trans people without 'warning' and you don't seem to be suffering any side effects. But your comments about how you would deal with an intersex child, indicate what you are willing to do to ensure your own comfort levels, ergo thats why I doubt your sincerity when it comes to trans kids.

[valsa]

Take your cues from the kids, they aren't hung up on gender, race or religion unless we adults make them hung up on it.

I agree 100%.

[dirtyhippiegirl]

I kind of get where takers is coming from in that - and I am NOT a parent - I don't think I would automatically THINK to teach my child about transgendered folk unless it happened IRL or I knew it was going to happen IRL. Personally, I've never met someone IRL who was transgendered. However, if we happened across someone who was transgendered in passing OR if I knew that my child would be associating with someone who was open about being transgendered (I guess vs. quietly trying to pass?), than I would probably be like - hey! great teaching opportunity! - in the hope that teaching is the way to acceptance.

'tho I don't know what alternate universe ladypug is living in. My nine year-old self got teased mercilessly by my peers after my sister - who was over 20 at the time - came out as a lesbian. Kiddos must learn their cues much earlier in the Midwest or sumthin. :P

[ladypuglover]

I kind of get where takers is coming from in that - and I am NOT a parent - I don't think I would automatically THINK to teach my child about transgendered folk unless it happened IRL or I knew it was going to happen IRL. Personally, I've never met someone IRL who was transgendered. However, if we happened across someone who was transgendered in passing OR if I knew that my child would be associating with someone who was open about being transgendered (I guess vs. quietly trying to pass?), than I would probably be like - hey! great teaching opportunity! - in the hope that teaching is the way to acceptance.

'tho I don't know what alternate universe ladypug is living in. My nine year-old self got teased mercilessly by my peers after my sister - who was over 20 at the time - came out as a lesbian. Kiddos must learn their cues much earlier in the Midwest or sumthin. :P

In my local area we as a community work very hard to stop what happened to you. At our local high schools there are 6 different clubs for the GLTG kids, at least 2 at each jr. high and 1 at each grade school. We also have many different types of clubs for everything you can think of, even clubs for clubs. And all are welcome. We still have a bulling problem but everyone is taking great strides to end that. It's called education and heavy parent/teacher involvement. We are a very mixed communtiy in race, religion, politics, income and so forth just about as we are here on FJ. Talking about it and meeting issues head on has nipped a lot of the bulling in the bud. We still have a very long way to go but we have broken down a lot of barriers that are still a problem not 4 miles away.

[Witsec7]

I don't think I would automatically THINK to teach my child about transgendered folk

Family conversations are a way to 'teach' kids about differences. At the time my DD was about 6 there was some news story that wasn't very short lived about a trans person. Hubby and I discussed it in front of the child. She eventually asked about it and what the word meant. We explained it to her simply, in language she could understand. Later we had a friend who decided to transition and it didn't take a lot of talking to explain that Aunt Ruthie was gonna become Uncle Ricky. She was comfortable asking Ricky questions and they had their own conversations about the transition, that we were not parties to.

OT: Nice to see you back Hippy