Duggar Dad Comes Out Against Transgender Girl Scout

[dairyfreelife]

I thought it was so sad at the end when she was talking about needing a surrogate to have children. No 13 year old should be worrying about surrogacy.

Most 13yos do think about marriage and babies. She knows she can't have them. It's not any different than a girl born with Turner Syndrome or who have certain conditions that makes her infertile. Or as some have said-discovering they lack a female reproductive system. She has to know at some point that she can't have biological children and I would think the earlier the better. I was a bit shocked to learn I have a 50% chance of being infertile, but I got over it and accepted it. These children can and do too. They just know it won't happen. The girl in the video is not any different than any other young woman who needs an egg donor to have a child.

[CanadianHippie]

Personally, I've never met someone IRL who was transgendered.

That you know of. Many transgender people are not out to anyone but their closest and dearest friends and/or family. It is entirely possible you have met a transgender person and just don't know it.

[Renting with Raggles]

daharyn, thanks for the heads up on transgender vs transgendered - I was using it thinking it was a regional usage thing like racist vs racialist.

Gee, I'd think it was common sense to take a girl to the girl's bathroom, but what do I know.

I thought takers was feigning ignorance until that little gem above. Really, after 5 pages of people telling her over and over that the child is a girl and providing all kinds of evidence to support their statements: a small crack of light penetrates the darkness. A girl you say? So... a girl uses... the girls' bathroom?

Not a bigot - just thick as a brick.

[FloraDoraDolly]

daharyn, thanks for the heads up on transgender vs transgendered - I was using it thinking it was a regional usage thing like racist vs racialist.

I thought takers was feigning ignorance until that little gem above. Really, after 5 pages of people telling her over and over that the child is a girl and providing all kinds of evidence to support their statements: a small crack of light penetrates the darkness. A girl you say? So... a girl uses... the girls' bathroom?

Not a bigot - just thick as a brick.

That works for a male-to-female transgender kid, but not so much if the child in question is female-to-male. Biologically, a 7-year-old who was born female doesn't have a penis and cannot use a urinal. And who in their right mind would send this kid into the men's room, especially if he had to go in there by himself? Most moms I know are nervous enough sending their 7-year-old boys-from-birth into the men's room alone.

[virginmojito]

Because you also said "this is the most hurtful thing for an adoptive mother, who is already a better mother than the biological one."

Sorry, I did not assume I should add: the biological mother OF THAT CERTAIN PARTICULAR child that has been adopted by the non-bio mother because the bio mother had handed the child off and someone else wanted the child so much that she does all the motherwork instead of that particular childs biomom. Sorry I should have put it this way, I see now. Back on trail with the original subject.

[JesusFightClub]

I get where takers is coming from because that's where I was on trans issues not such a very long time ago. My biggest help was having a feminist who I greatly respect say to me basically "WTF, think about this! Look at all the assumptions you are making! Educate yourself!"

I have tried to since then. Not there yet but will keep on going. Takers, I doubt you would have a problem with two seven year olds of different sexes sleeping in the same area so why two seven year olds of the same gender but possessing different genitals? I would say do as ladypuglover suggests and follow the cues, maybe even ask the girl if you are not sure? (Not her mum, her).

For knowing trans people there's a woman at my work who I never knew was transgender until someone told me. I do not present as in any way stereotypically feminine (the transgender girl in the pic and the woman at my work look far more feminine than I do) and I feel comfortable that way. Who am I to judge how someone else feels comfortable in their own skin?

[Renting with Raggles]

That works for a male-to-female transgender kid, but not so much if the child in question is female-to-male. Biologically, a 7-year-old who was born female doesn't have a penis and cannot use a urinal.

A urinal-only men's room? Never heard of them. Are they common where you are?

I always thought that little children naturally all used the toilets/ changing rooms of the adult accompanying them - so usually the women's facilities. My dad just used to haul my sister and me into the men's toilet. When he was in charge of a big group of kids by himself I remember him at least once standing around outside the door to the ladies' toilet and waiting for us, but I remember Mum doing the same.

[Constance Vigilance]

Anyone who thinks we aren’t being “nice enough†to the transphobia and willful ignorance shown on this thread is being hypocritical. No one would expect me to be “nice†to Jim Bob if he showed up here to talk about it. And we tear fundies a new one for being ignorant and prejudiced every day. Bigotry is bigotry.

All it means is that should a child that is not stereotypically a girl be included in my daughter's troop or cabin I'd like to know about it.

So if I (as a gay kid) was in your daughter’s cabin, you’d want a meeting with my mum to “discuss†it? Or do you think the sign-up process for girl scouts should involve a short presentation about the genitals of each of your daughters’ new friends? You are not entitled to that information. It is part of cis privilege to think you are.

A transgender person is not a danger to a cisgender person. It’s the other way round. Each of those girls whose picture is posted is now part of a group that has a murder rate of 1 in 12 in America. 1 IN 12. It’s heartbreakening, and it’s because of prejudice and ignorance. If you don’t think that’s enough reason to educate yourself on the subject, I don’t know how to help you.

That works for a male-to-female transgender kid, but not so much if the child in question is female-to-male. Biologically, a 7-year-old who was born female doesn't have a penis and cannot use a urinal.

If only there were little rooms…with doors…where people don’t see what’s in your pants, and you could sit down on the toilet…gosh, the word’s on the tip of my tongue.

If it’s a safety issue with a small child, then they will use whatever bathroom is safest, like any other kid (I don’t know many parents who send a small boy into the men’s room by himself). You’re seem to be trying to find a hole in the argument that transgender people have a right to be treated as their identified gender? Why?

Edited for riffles and clarification. And fuck you.

[JesusFightClub]

You are right, Constance. I rarely say be nice ;) and it was the NOT being nice which caught my attention and made me think about trans people sensibly.

Sometimes people have confusion (I definitely did) so I do not rule this out. But it does not mean they don't need a stern talking to.

[virginmojito]

For a family that did nothing for years but take and take, sticking out of the crowd by the number of children, and having one child that is POSSIBLY challanged, they are awfully hostile and intolerant towards others. Picking on a child is ridiculously low, even for them. They expect the whole woldr to admire them and be an inspiration for being "different" - fine!!! - but when it comes to others being different from the average, they spit fire? How come? The meanest thing an adult can do is pick on a kid. That's low, juvenile, mean, cowardly.

At the beginning I said they should shut up. I now join others who said: no, they should really show who they are. Come on Duggars, keep it coming. Show us what's REALLY behind your frozen Yellow Pill smiles.

[Constance Vigilance]

You are right, Constance. I rarely say be nice ;) and it was the NOT being nice which caught my attention and made me think about trans people sensibly.

Me too! It was long while ago now (when I was a wee sheltered thing ;)), but something to do with trans issues came up on the internet and I thought and said some of the ignorant and rude stuff being said here, because life outside the strict sex/gender binary was new to me and I was uncomfortable with it. And part of being in the privileged group is thinking that your discomfort with people's existence is something important that you have the right to share.

Several posters promptly ripped me a new one, as they should, and told me to fuck off and go educate myself. If they had been sunshine and roses and explained gently, would I have learned about trans issues? Maybe. But would I have realised how rude and ignorant and prejudiced I'd been previously, and how that contributes to the widespread transphobia in our society? No. Also, bigotry is bigotry and should be challenged wherever it is seen (including when I say it).

So, handslapping not appreciated. It's a snark board. Like it or lump it.

[Guest Anonymous]

I'd never heard of AIS before this topic. I don't particularly care to google it, so the information I'm getting on it comes from the other members who are posting on it. I don't understand what you mean by whinging on a message board. As questions come up I try to think about it and then answer to the best of my abilities fully knowing that my thoughts aren't fully formed.

I had some sympathy with takers until she said the emboldened part. If you don't "care" to learn, then you probably need to be ripped into before you will learn.

I learn all sorts of stuff every time I read FJ. There is loads I don't know and haven't experienced yet - Google and lurking are my friends in these situations.

[snarkbillie]

That works for a male-to-female transgender kid, but not so much if the child in question is female-to-male. Biologically, a 7-year-old who was born female doesn't have a penis and cannot use a urinal. And who in their right mind would send this kid into the men's room, especially if he had to go in there by himself? Most moms I know are nervous enough sending their 7-year-old boys-from-birth into the men's room alone.

Little boys typically go to the ladies room with their mums until they're old enough to go to the bathroom alone. After that they can just use the men's room. There are usually stalls and toilets in there. Although most places (at least in America) have "Family restrooms" now so they could just use one of those.

[Deleted03]

For a family that did nothing for years but take and take, sticking out of the crowd by the number of children, and having one child that is POSSIBLY challanged, they are awfully hostile and intolerant towards others. Picking on a child is ridiculously low, even for them. They expect the whole woldr to admire them and be an inspiration for being "different" - fine!!! - but when it comes to others being different from the average, they spit fire? How come? The meanest thing an adult can do is pick on a kid. That's low, juvenile, mean, cowardly.

At the beginning I said they should shut up. I now join others who said: no, they should really show who they are. Come on Duggars, keep it coming. Show us what's REALLY behind your frozen Yellow Pill smiles.

but but the only thing that matters are penises and vaginas!!!! if they're not in the right places then it just crumbles the whole world!

[MonkeyMomma]

I don't know what would change for my daughter. Maybe nothing. Maybe she becomes embarrassed about sleeping in the same room as a girl who is also a boy. Maybe she doesn't care two bits. Maybe she doesn't want to go to camp if she has to be in the cabin with the boy. I don't know. But I have the right to be able to say I have concerns and questions that I'd like to have answered. I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to simply say "okay" and have no follow up when they're told that their child will be sleeping in the same cabin as a boy who identifies as a girl.

Well, fine. I think folks here have tried to answer your questions and concerns with patience and grace. At this point, the onus is on you to examine your beliefs about gender.

In the end, you don't have to let your daughter go camping with a trans girl. That's your right as her parent. But WHAT are you afraid of?? This trans-panic sounds like the old canard that if we let trans women use female spaces, then men will dress as women simply to assault women in assumed safe places. It's really coming off like you are afraid a trans girl, by virtue of her external genitals, will seduce or assault your daughter. And I can't put into words how much that angers me.

Likewise, I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to simply be "okay" with anti-trans ignorance and bigotry. Keep your kid out of hypothetical camp if that makes you feel safer. It works for everyone, because I'm not interested in having to explain bigotry to my innocent child yet. I want safe places for my child to develop into the person he will become, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity.

[Guest Anonymous]

For a family that did nothing for years but take and take, sticking out of the crowd by the number of children, and having one child that is POSSIBLY challanged, they are awfully hostile and intolerant towards others. Picking on a child is ridiculously low, even for them. They expect the whole woldr to admire them and be an inspiration for being "different" - fine!!! - but when it comes to others being different from the average, they spit fire? How come? The meanest thing an adult can do is pick on a kid. That's low, juvenile, mean, cowardly.

At the beginning I said they should shut up. I now join others who said: no, they should really show who they are. Come on Duggars, keep it coming. Show us what's REALLY behind your frozen Yellow Pill smiles.

I'm with you. They'll be doing the public by continuing to talk, so all of us can see and hear the crazy for ourselves and so they show their true (muddy) colors.

[formergothardite]

Can we try a little exercise?

If we can very easily change a statement you make to one that would not have been out of place in the mouth of a bigot from 60 years ago, maybe you should realize that your point of view is really fucked up.

Quoting this because this needs to be quoted.

[keeperrox]

No, I didn't miss your point. Your point was to post a bunch of photos of male-to-female transgender children and then Takers or somebody was supposed to be shocked that these girls look like any other girls you might see in a schoolyard. Basically, it was a trick question.

No, it's not a trick question, and yes, you did miss my point completely. Takers made the comment that boys look like boys by the time they are 7. I found 7 examples to show that her statement was wrong. Just because YOU don't like it, doesn't make those 7 children any less of a girl.

[LeatherCouch]

I don't know what would change for my daughter. Maybe nothing. Maybe she becomes embarrassed about sleeping in the same room as a girl who is also a boy. Maybe she doesn't care two bits. Maybe she doesn't want to go to camp if she has to be in the cabin with the boy. I don't know. But I have the right to be able to say I have concerns and questions that I'd like to have answered. I don't think it's realistic to expect everyone to simply say "okay" and have no follow up when they're told that their child will be sleeping in the same cabin as a boy who identifies as a girl.

Nothing would change except that your daughter would learn more about how people can be different, and if you handle it correctly, she'll learn about acceptance and that it's good not to judge people by their genitals.

About a year and a half ago there was a huge bruhaha in a local homeschool co-op because a girl who is transgendered wanted to attend classes. They ended up kicking her out because they were scared of a tiny child whose genitals were none of their business. They also thought she didn't look girly enough. Gah, it makes me tear up just to write that. She's just a kid! To be treated like that as a young child...so awful :(

We later took a class (outside of the co-op) with her and her family, and I used the opportunity to teach my kids and myself about transgendered people. My older kids had specific questions, but my little ones where good with "Her brain is a girl and her body is a boy. This means she is a girl and should be treated and refered to as such." Easy peasy. They understood and, as little kids do, they went about their merry way and didn't worry about it again. We drank out of the same water hose and used the same bathroom, stood side by side and nobody's world was rocked. :roll: If we hadn't known, it wouldn't have mattered.

I would recommend going ahead and learning about transgendered people now, and then teach your kids. I didn't think about it until it was in my lap, but I should have. We already knew all about GLB people, the T just didn't occur to me.

[StarrieEyedKat]

I still would want to be informed of a transgendered boy/girl being in the same cabin as my child.

And my question is - Why? Why do you think you have a right to know what is in that child's underwear? If your daughter finds out that she's sharing space with a transgender child and has questions, then why don't you just answer them as they come, or if you can't answer them, admit it, and then look for answers together. Valsa was correct:

you don't get a sneak peak into the future and you'll just have to learn to answer your kids' questions as they ask them.

[Austin]

I'm not sure why other parents should even be told about the situation. I'm just thinking out loud here, and my visceral reaction as a mother is that parents should be advised of "the situation" (because that's how mothers tend to think), but when I really consider it, there's no reason I or any other parent who is not a leader needs to know. There should be no reason that sort of information would be disclosed during an event (the child probably won't change in front of other children and nobody's doing underwear checks, I presume).

I think the parents tend to make these situations into big dealios when it doens't really faze kids much. We get all caught up in protecting our cubs, but in this situation, what would we be "protecting" them from?

[Terrie]

Count me as another one who was insulted by takers refusal to educate herself. She's an adult. Expecting us to politely spoon feed her information is insulting to the rest of us. An adult needs to be willing to educate themselves about issues, even if they are busy. The rest of us have lives as well. Personally, I find intellectual laziness to be one of the great sins.

[keeperrox]

I'm not sure why other parents should even be told about the situation. I'm just thinking out loud here, and my visceral reaction as a mother is that parents should be advised of "the situation" (because that's how mothers tend to think), but when I really consider it, there's no reason I or any other parent who is not a leader needs to know. There should be no reason that sort of information would be disclosed during an event (the child probably won't change in front of other children and nobody's doing underwear checks, I presume).

Yeah, exactly. This is what I was saying before. Why is it anyone's business? Why are these cases even making the news? It's not like there is a news story interviewing every genetic male living as female if they are over 18. Yes, I realize that it is atypical for a child to do this, but should they be trotted out in front of everyone in the national news? I don't think they should. I'm not saying that these children should feel like they need to hide the fact that they are transgender, but that information should be divulged when THEY want it to be known.

[Buzzard]

I just placed my order for 6 boxes of cookies!

[takers401]

I get where takers is coming from because that's where I was on trans issues not such a very long time ago. My biggest help was having a feminist who I greatly respect say to me basically "WTF, think about this! Look at all the assumptions you are making! Educate yourself!"

I have tried to since then. Not there yet but will keep on going. Takers, I doubt you would have a problem with two seven year olds of different sexes sleeping in the same area so why two seven year olds of the same gender but possessing different genitals? I would say do as ladypuglover suggests and follow the cues, maybe even ask the girl if you are not sure? (Not her mum, her).

For knowing trans people there's a woman at my work who I never knew was transgender until someone told me. I do not present as in any way stereotypically feminine (the transgender girl in the pic and the woman at my work look far more feminine than I do) and I feel comfortable that way. Who am I to judge how someone else feels comfortable in their own skin?

I would have a problem with a boy and a girl sleeping in the same area. Not in "oh my gosh they're going to have sex" but in boys and girls are different and I think that at that age we'd have awesome fun playdates together but no sleepovers. The exception would be if family were over and all the kids slept on the basement floor, for example.

Earlier someone responded a to a comment of mine about not knowing which bathroom to take her into. After thinking about the replies I can see why taking her into the girl's bathroom without first questioning would be automatic for most people. But since I've never dealt with a transgender person (that I know of) I think my question was still a legitimate one. Now I know.