Dillards 94: After Counting the Cost

[Father Son Holy Goat]

13 hours ago, CarrotCake said:

I do think Jill is a curious person at heart. This was already visible in the past when she wanted to be a midwife or expand her knowledge of other cultures abroad. And now that she is opening up her believes she is probably reading into a lot of things. That alone is very different from a person like Jessa or Joy who, even if they were moving away from fundiedom, would not bother learning new things.

Even the fact that Jill is deconstructing is a sign that she is curious and intelligent.

Remember Jill learning Spanish? I’m not sure if she was the only kid learning the language or if she was the one who embraced it the most but she was actively seeking out knowledge in a way I didn’t see her siblings doing. 

[just_ordinary]

I wouldn’t be too sure that Jill is „naturally intelligent“. As sad as it sounds- Jill started this relationship with the aim to be whatever Derick wants her to be. I don’t deny that things took a turn for the better, but I am not convinced that she isn’t still moulding herself after his liking. And I wouldn’t even bet she realises it, but rather believes that’s exactly what she wants herself. She seems happy, so I do hope that she feels comfortable to speak up and stands up for herself, as well as can pursue things she is interested in no matter what Derick thinks about that. It’s hard to tell and if the past has taught us anything- we shouldn’t rely too much about what was shown in the show. Jill might have been more open and curious but it could be just editing and her skripted persona. Just like Rebel Jinger, CinderJana, Tomboy Joy or BossBitch Jessa.

I do think Jill is within the usual IQ range and has now the option to explore things more as it aligns with what Derick likes. I do think she is still a people pleaser- it’s just Derick now that she aims to please. I really hope all children will get a formal education and Jill has the time to catch up on some education too (grammar, spelling, common knowledge….). Maybe even get a foot in the door with a job, if that is what she desires. There is no shame in getting an education and still deciding to make the home your realm of expertise and be a SAHM or SAHW. As long as it’s her choice.

Edited November 1, 2023 by just_ordinary

[Zebedee]

It is hard to tell what intelligence Jill has, since her awful parents have tried to discourage her from following it at all. I am sure she is perfectly capable of learning most stuff, but JB and M have made it as hard as possible for her. Not just with the absolutely criminal level of “education” they provided, although that does make it ten times harder. Sure, she probably can’t become a Field’s medal mathematician, or an epoch defining philosopher, but few people can.
 

As an eternal optimist, I shall hope that Jill’s mini deconstruction allows her to find her own natural intelligence, and that she finds she is in fact, perfectly capable of learning a lot of stuff in most areas. I do believe that most people can, even though we do all have our own blind spots. It is true that she was meant to be brought up to become whatever her husband wants. What she has told us is that, actually, she was brought up to become what JB wants. That programming seems to have failed. She isn’t doing that,  maybe she’ll manage to become what she wants?

 

 I don’t really think many of the Duggars are actually dumb. Even if they were, there’s no shame in that. Plenty of “dumb” people, by academic standards, are great at other things. They, of course, got (hopefully) the chances to learn what they are good at and can do better than most other people. Even JB isn’t dumb. JB and M are just appallingly ignorant, and arrogant, and also deliberately stymied any normal paths by abusing their children basically from birth. 

[MariaariaM]

"Dumb" is an unhelpful word anyway. People can be incurious (for many reasons, including fear, laziness, repeated disappointment, and depression), disinterested, or undereducated. From the outside it may all look like similar, but labeling someone as dumb dismisses them as not worthy of further attention or investment.

[Cheetah]

Y'all.... I haven't even been thinking about the Duggars much lately but last night I dreamt that most of them converted to Catholicism.  My mind goes bizarre places sometimes I guess.

[BlackberryGirl]

I’m reading the book now, and I gotta say, I’m impressed. It’s clear and journalistically written. And while she may try to protect Jim Bob, he comes off as pure evil, driven by avarice, power, and sex. The whole not giving her the contract back so she could see what she signed is horrifying.

[lumpentheologie]

Funny how JB, the famous Christian, is a personification of 4 of the 7 deadly sins: pride, greed, anger, and lust. 

Oh right, but never mind what the Catholics say, they’re all going to hell. 😒

[Father Son Holy Goat]

I’m in a mood; I’m pissed about my own trauma and passed on behalf of Jill. We’ll never know what her real intelligence was and what she could’ve done with her life because her parents took that opportunity from her.

[BlackberryGirl]

Jim Bob’s last act was to screw them completely out of a chance to be actual missionaries. He is utter scum.

[Kiki03910]

On 11/2/2023 at 4:15 PM, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I’m in a mood; I’m pissed about my own trauma and passed on behalf of Jill. We’ll never know what her real intelligence was and what she could’ve done with her life because her parents took that opportunity from her.

Big hugs to you. I always appreciate your posts and insights. Thank you.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

Jill’s book has been nominated for the 2023 Good Reads Choice Award. 

I’m happy for her and wish her the best of luck in winning. If she does win I hope her younger siblings see it as one more example that life outside the Duggar compound and ATI is possible. 
 

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/167770288-counting-the-cost

[marmalade]

They were recently on a podcast. Mostly the same stuff with one exception. 

Derick admitted to kissing girls before Jill. Apparently, Derick confessed to JB, who made Derick call the girls and apologize to them. I assume for sulllying their purity. 🙄

I guess Derick actually did this because he was still vulnerable and looked to JB as a father figure. I hate that JB took advantage of Derick like that. You know he didn't try that shit with Jeremy! 

[Cam]

6 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Jill’s book has been nominated for the 2023 Good Reads Choice Award. 

 

I saw Time’s list of top 100 must-read books of 2023 which included several of the ones nominated in the same category as Jill’s for the Good Choice Award. But Jill’s was not on the Time list.

6 hours ago, marmalade said:

They were recently on a podcast. Mostly the same stuff with one exception. 

Derick admitted to kissing girls before Jill. Apparently, Derick confessed to JB, who made Derick call the girls and apologize to them. I assume for sulllying their purity. 🙄

JB is one sick dude. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Cam

[AprilQuilt]

6 hours ago, marmalade said:

They were recently on a podcast. Mostly the same stuff with one exception. 

Derick admitted to kissing girls before Jill. Apparently, Derick confessed to JB, who made Derick call the girls and apologize to them. I assume for sulllying their purity. 🙄

I guess Derick actually did this because he was still vulnerable and looked to JB as a father figure. I hate that JB took advantage of Derick like that. You know he didn't try that shit with Jeremy! 

Oh my god! As if the girls had no agency or ability to consent! If the girls are now married do they also need to apologise to Derick???? I'm not surprised but it really is batshit isn't it?

[JermajestyDuggar]

If some guy I had dated in my past called me up and apologized for kissing me, I would have laughed very loud and very long. Then I would have grilled my ex on why he would do something like that. Knowing me, I would have gotten a lot out of him. I can be persistent aka stubborn. 

[Meggo]

1 minute ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

If some guy I had dated in my past called me up and apologized for kissing me, I would have laughed very loud and very long. Then I would have grilled my ex on why he would do something like that. Knowing me, I would have gotten a lot out of him. I can be persistent aka stubborn. 

right?? I would have laughed and then honestly questioned what the hell he was getting himself into with this marriage. I did have an ex reach out LONG after we broke up (we dated at that high school/college cross over period and I was already married by the time he reached out). To apologize for being a horrible boyfriend and not being considerate of my feelings while we were dating (he cheated on me). He did want to see if I wanted to go out for dinner or something and I thought "it's been like... 8 years dude. I am PRETTY sure we have nothing in common and just... no." He also said he completely understood if I didn't want to talk to or hear from him again. (big of him) so I didn't. 
But - calling to apologize for KISSING ME? Yeah - weirdo.

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

33 minutes ago, Meggo said:

right?? I would have laughed and then honestly questioned what the hell he was getting himself into with this marriage. I did have an ex reach out LONG after we broke up (we dated at that high school/college cross over period and I was already married by the time he reached out). To apologize for being a horrible boyfriend and not being considerate of my feelings while we were dating (he cheated on me). He did want to see if I wanted to go out for dinner or something and I thought "it's been like... 8 years dude. I am PRETTY sure we have nothing in common and just... no." He also said he completely understood if I didn't want to talk to or hear from him again. (big of him) so I didn't. 
But - calling to apologize for KISSING ME? Yeah - weirdo.

 

I would bet good money that Jeremy was not a virgin when he got married. Imagine Jim Boob making him call and apologize for sex. Yeah right. Jeremy would never do that. 

[Meggo]

2 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I would bet good money that Jeremy was not a virgin when he got married. Imagine Jim Boob making him call and apologize for sex. Yeah right. Jeremy would never do that. 

What is JB going to do - check up on him? Jeremy might have been more innocent than we think - he IS a bit of a pompous tool... 

[Giraffe]

I'm speechless. What an absolutely revolting thing for JB to do! Even in recovery groups that's not how something like that would be handled! And apologizing for something completely normal and, dare I say, healthy even?! Fuck JB. I'm even more proud of Derick and Jill for their growth!

[AprilQuilt]

In seriousness I do hope that Jill is now familiar enough with the mainstream world of even conservative Christianity to understand that Derick kissing other girls before her is not something to worry about or beat herself up over. It's so far from what was drummed into her that she might have been really anxious about Derick's heart pieces and whether he had enough left for her. Could also have played right into her eager-to-please mentality and made her feel she had to earn his attention and favour even once they were married.

I'm sure she's said or implied that she expects her boys to date one day, so I hope that this is also something she's comfortable with in terms of Derick's past.

 

[JermajestyDuggar]

22 minutes ago, AprilQuilt said:

In seriousness I do hope that Jill is now familiar enough with the mainstream world of even conservative Christianity to understand that Derick kissing other girls before her is not something to worry about or beat herself up over. It's so far from what was drummed into her that she might have been really anxious about Derick's heart pieces and whether he had enough left for her. Could also have played right into her eager-to-please mentality and made her feel she had to earn his attention and favour even once they were married.

I'm sure she's said or implied that she expects her boys to date one day, so I hope that this is also something she's comfortable with in terms of Derick's past.

 

I think it probably helps to know lots of Christian’s who kissed others before marriage and were absolutely fine. Hell her own mother kissed others! She has to know by now it’s not a big deal.

[backyard sylph]

Did JB watch him call these girls? Because if it was me, and I wanted to be really honest but not a nutball, the most I'd have done is send them a friendly message saying I wish them well, and thanks for the good times we had together. In some manner depending. 

[AprilQuilt]

11 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think it probably helps to know lots of Christian’s who kissed others before marriage and were absolutely fine. Hell her own mother kissed others! She has to know by now it’s not a big deal.

yeah but Michelle kissing others is part of her testimony isn't it? It wasn't normalised for the kids, it was an example of Michelle doing things that were sinful and morally wrong, along with mowing the lawn in a bikini. The takeaway is that God will forgive her now she's saved, not that she was ever right to do it in the first place. Same with Derick having to apologise to the girls he kissed as if it were a very wrong act. With Jill having been brought up in a world that sexualised even very small children dancing, and taught her to save her first kiss for marriage, I'm just interested in whether it was hard for her to be entirely cool with Derick's prior behaviour even if he were now penitent about it.

She's worked hard at questioning for herself whether it's OK for Christians to have piercings, wear pants, drink alcohol, send their kids to mainstream school etc. So she's clearly revising a lot of her instilled opinions. But it can be one thing to rationally understand something, and another for it not to affect you emotionally. So I hope that it was never something that caused her too much distress, and that if it did she was able to work through it safely as with everything else.

[Cam]

Not sure how much Derick knew of Josh and the molestations before marrying Jill, but I wonder if JB tried to make Derick to believe he, too, was “impure” before marriage since he locked lips with females before Jill. It seems in JB’s mind Derick and Jill were both “tainted” so in the land of misfits they were a matching pair.

[FiveAcres]

33 minutes ago, Cam said:

Not sure how much Derick knew of Josh and the molestations before marrying Jill, but I wonder if JB tried to make Derick to believe he, too, was “impure” before marriage since he locked lips with females before Jill. It seems in JB’s mind Derick and Jill were both “tainted” so in the land of misfits they were a matching pair.

This actually makes a kind of twisted sense. JB is as much of a monster as his oldest son.