Dillards 94: After Counting the Cost

[Coconut Flan]

Continued from here:

 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

If Jim Bob does get investigated for tax fraud I think several of his children are going down with him. Between properties in Jana’s name and Jed’s election campaign money, there may be a cell block Duggar in the future.

[Bethy]

2 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

If Jim Bob does get investigated for tax fraud I think several of his children are going down with him. Between properties in Jana’s name and Jed’s election campaign money, there may be a cell block Duggar in the future.

I have no idea how willingly involved Jana is in her dad's tax games, but I would think if she was tricked into signing something, Jill's getting tricked into signing away years of her married life to the show might help her case. 

[Cam]

I’m not fan girling, but without Derick, there is no Counting the Cost. It never occurred to me before to look at the massive differences between how Jill and Derick grew up. His childhood was sooo normal compared to hers. Some of you know the details but here’s what I found: Derick was the oldest of only two boys. His dad was a police officer. [That surprised me. It’s a pretty manly profession (tho I’m well aware women are cops too. Trivia: I was once a police dispatcher). I guess what I’m getting at is his dad wasn’t in some religious line of work]. Derick seems to belong to the Baptist religious denomination. It doesn’t sound like IBLP was ever a part of his upbringing.

Both Derick’s parents are Oklahoma State University graduates. Derick is, too. He lived on campus while attending the college which was 3 1/2 hours from home. He was part of the marching band two years then became the school mascot for two years, something his dad also did. Derick majored in accounting, minored in economics. 

When he was 19 and at OSU, his mother, brother and preacher showed up on campus to tell him his dad, age 50, had died from a heart attack. That’s a shocking and life-changing event; his dad was so young, it was sudden, and Derick was so young, too.

We all pretty much know the rest, Derick graduates, goes to Nepal, JB becomes prayer partner, yadda yadda yadda—Counting the Cost.

Derick’s brain was wired to look at the math. I think when he began questioning JB about the money, he wasn’t being smart-alecky. It’s just how his mind worked. Things literally didn’t add up and he wanted answers to clear up his confusion. This, accompanied by all the ways white males are raised/allowed to be empowered, go after what they want, speak up, be assertive, display intelligence, and ask questions meant Derick had what it took to challenge JB. Plus, once Derick became a dad, especially to boys, he knew he was setting examples for them. No way was he going to accept being controlled/contained by JB. Look at all the many freedoms he’d experienced compared to Jill. Thus began the process of separation from JB.

Comparing Derick’s raising to Jill’s and it’s actually pretty fortunate that she married him. Yes, I know of his antiliberal stances, but most of us live along side people like him and/or have family members like him. That doesn’t excuse it, but how he was raised is extremely common compared to Jill who was taught to spend most of her brain cells making sure her body was covered from below the ankle up to the neck so no males got a hard on or worse. And Derick didn’t grow up with a sexual predator in his house and having to be hypervigilant about said predator’s whereabouts at all times. And all the other ungodly bizarre ways she was brought up. 

 

[St.Clara]

50 minutes ago, Cam said:

Comparing Derick’s raising to Jill’s and it’s actually pretty fortunate that she married him. Yes, I know of his antiliberal stances, but most of us live along side people like him and/or have family members like him.

I think it was very unfortunate that the first individual actually belonging to the LGBTQ community was (probably) introduced to Derick by a TLC show. Let´s be real, the idea that TLC would support an abusive situation where parents encourage or even force their child to transition in order to get a show and make money is not really that far fetched... I can easily see why Derick would honestly believe that. TLC does not care about the wellbeing of children, they have proven that time and again, and Derick knows it better than anyone. (Well, not better than his wife but you know what I mean.)

I really hope that Derick through his line of work gets to know and like a nice gay but otherwise pretty mainstream attorney... I think there is evidence that Derick is capable of changing his beliefs when confronted with experience that contradicts them. I would not give up hope.

[noseybutt]

1 hour ago, St.Clara said:

I think it was very unfortunate that the first individual actually belonging to the LGBTQ community was (probably) introduced to Derick by a TLC show. Let´s be real, the idea that TLC would support an abusive situation where parents encourage or even force their child to transition in order to get a show and make money is not really that far fetched... I can easily see why Derick would honestly believe that. TLC does not care about the wellbeing of children, they have proven that time and again, and Derick knows it better than anyone. (Well, not better than his wife but you know what I mean.)

I really hope that Derick through his line of work gets to know and like a nice gay but otherwise pretty mainstream attorney... I think there is evidence that Derick is capable of changing his beliefs when confronted with experience that contradicts them. I would not give up hope.

He should have met the federal prosecutor on Josh's case....

[marmalade]

3 hours ago, noseybutt said:

He should have met the federal prosecutor on Josh's case....

He may well have contacted him after the trial. That would have been a great contact for him.

[Cam]

20 hours ago, St.Clara said:

I think it was very unfortunate that the first individual actually belonging to the LGBTQ community was (probably) introduced to Derick by a TLC show.

Derick lived on the OSU campus for four years. He was in the marching band, which a quick google says consists of 228 members. He’d attended public school, which I forgot to add in my previous post, tho many of us know that. His was not a sheltered life by any means. Having a very typical upbringing and going away to college, he would have had to have known people who were gay. He may have avoided them like the plague and judged them harshly, but he was not unaware.

20 hours ago, St.Clara said:

I really hope that Derick through his line of work gets to know and like a nice gay but otherwise pretty mainstream attorney... I think there is evidence that Derick is capable of changing his beliefs when confronted with experience that contradicts them. I would not give up hope.

This is my hope, too. Not just that he gets to know gay professionals, but sees how other professionals have zero issues with it, and that no matter one’s sexual orientation, a person can excel at their work and be people of fine character.

[OHFL2009]

I'm hopeful that Jill can take the changes in mindset she's already made and eventually extend that to other areas in her life like racist or homophobic views. She says was taught that public school was evil, but then saw that Derick was capable of being a godly man despite having gone to public school. She was taught that wearing pants would cause all sorts of catastrophic things to happen, but Derick showed her that wasn't true. So hopefully she will start to reason that if those things weren't actually evil or bad, maybe these other things she was taught aren't either. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

If she were to write another book in 10 years I hope it would show continued growth. Whether or not another book is marketable in 10 years is another story.

[viii]

I think it would depend where the Duggars are in ten years. If Josh was being released or Josie getting married, I could see the interest resurging. 

[Kiki03910]

I'm making Jill's butterscotch brownies tonight.

https://www.dillardfamily.com/2019/08/butterscotch-brownies/

I used brown sugar and butter. No vanilla in the cupboard, so I subbed in bourbon because I am a slutty atheist drunkard.

ETA: I threw in some chunks of unsweetened chocolate too.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Kiki03910
CHOCOLATE

[TN-peach]

9 hours ago, Kiki03910 said:

I'm making Jill's butterscotch brownies tonight.

https://www.dillardfamily.com/2019/08/butterscotch-brownies/

I used brown sugar and butter. No vanilla in the cupboard, so I subbed in bourbon because I am a slutty atheist drunkard.

ETA: I threw in some chunks of unsweetened chocolate too.

How was it? Did you make enough to share with the class?

[Kiki03910]

9 hours ago, TN-peach said:

How was it? Did you make enough to share with the class?

It's a pretty basic recipe, but quite tasty. I have no idea what it would be like if I used olive oil instead of butter and don't have much of a desire to find out.

Next time I'll make 2 batches and invite you all over!

[TeaGrannie]

@Kiki03910 how much butter did you sub for the olive oil please?

[Kiki03910]

35 minutes ago, TeaGrannie said:

@Kiki03910 how much butter did you sub for the olive oil please?

1 stick (1/2 cup). I melted it first.

Edited October 5, 2023 by Kiki03910

[backyard sylph]

For a blondie, which is what that recipe really is, you'd definitely want the light olive oil if not using butter*, but extra virgin olive oil goes really well with chocolate. Brownies are the one thing I nearly always make from a mix, Duncan Hines, and I use olive oil plus either a little bourbon or a liqueur like Chambord or Frangelico. I like it better than with butter.

*I would not use oil for blondies; they really do want butter, and it'd probably be even better if you used browned butter. 

[Baba O'Riley]

 

Jill's book is #9 on the NY Times "Combined Print and E-book Nonfiction" Best Seller list for October 15, 2023. (This is the official publication date for the newspaper's hard copy of its Book Review, although the list is now available online.) It is also #9 for "Hardcover Nonfiction" for the same date, It was #5 on the Combined Print and E-book Nonfiction list last time, and #4 on the Hardcover list.  This is the third week in a row that it has qualified for these lists. By comparison, if I recall correctly, I think Jinger's book fell off the list after one week. https://www.nytimes.com/books/best-sellers/combined-print-and-e-book-nonfiction/?smid=url-share

[Cupcake79]

Now I’ve read Jill’s book. As I haven’t had the time to follow all of the discussions in this thread and the previous one this might have been mentioned before, but I still feel the need to write because no one around me really care about fundies. I feel that Jill really struck gold when marrying Derrick. It could so easily have gone in the opposite direction. 
One thing that struck me reading the first chapter of the book is how the Duggar kids were sexualized. Not in the way it could be said that our society is sexualized (e.g. advertisement, movies, young people expected to have sex early on) but in how small children were made aware of not showing parts of their bodies and not tempting others. It’s as children were looked upon as adults with sexual thoughts, or something. In my world a 5-year old is supposed to be carefree, run around, do somersaults or whatever without worrying about showing a belly or leg. Is this what IBLP teached? It would have made more sense if this view in the Duggar household would have emerged after Josh’s initial abuse, but if I get it right the thing with modesty came earlier. Of course it wouldn’t have been right either way. 
And it’s just awful how JB treated Jill. Horrible. The fame and the money really did bring out the worst sides of him. I think he would have been better off without the show. How can Michelle stand by him? I have a lot more thoughts, but we’re off to the cinema now.

[Bethy]

25 minutes ago, Cupcake79 said:

Now I’ve read Jill’s book. As I haven’t had the time to follow all of the discussions in this thread and the previous one this might have been mentioned before, but I still feel the need to write because no one around me really care about fundies. I feel that Jill really struck gold when marrying Derrick. It could so easily have gone in the opposite direction. 
One thing that struck me reading the first chapter of the book is how the Duggar kids were sexualized. Not in the way it could be said that our society is sexualized (e.g. advertisement, movies, young people expected to have sex early on) but in how small children were made aware of not showing parts of their bodies and not tempting others. It’s as children were looked upon as adults with sexual thoughts, or something. In my world a 5-year old is supposed to be carefree, run around, do somersaults or whatever without worrying about showing a belly or leg. Is this what IBLP teached? It would have made more sense if this view in the Duggar household would have emerged after Josh’s initial abuse, but if I get it right the thing with modesty came earlier. Of course it wouldn’t have been right either way. 
 

There an IBLP document discussed here that was distributed in the late 90s which taught families that insisting on modesty in the home was vitally important to prevent abuse by other family members. And for my part, as a child in the early 90s I was taught by my mom (who had attended a Gothard seminar so long ago that it wasn't even called IBLP yet) that if I undressed in front of a window someone might come back and r@pe me and I would share in the blame for defrauding them, so this teaching was pervading in IBLP/ATI circles - and, presumably, also in the Duggar home - long before Josh did what he did. 

[viii]

You have to wonder how many other families in the IBLP universe have similar stories with sons like Josh. 

[Cupcake79]

4 hours ago, Bethy said:

There an IBLP document discussed here that was distributed in the late 90s which taught families that insisting on modesty in the home was vitally important to prevent abuse by other family members. And for my part, as a child in the early 90s I was taught by my mom (who had attended a Gothard seminar so long ago that it wasn't even called IBLP yet) that if I undressed in front of a window someone might come back and r@pe me and I would share in the blame for defrauding them, so this teaching was pervading in IBLP/ATI circles - and, presumably, also in the Duggar home - long before Josh did what he did. 

What the heck? I honestly can’t understand how someone could consider this right. I’m a fairly conservative christian myself but it’s crystal clear to me that I would never teach my kids this way of thinking.

Another note. How on earth didn’t Michelle and JB connect the dots when they found out what Josh had done to his sisters? Why didn’t they realize that something is not right with the way they raise their children? Psychologically it’s quite interesting.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Cupcake79

[SassyPants]

6 hours ago, Cupcake79 said:

Now I’ve read Jill’s book. As I haven’t had the time to follow all of the discussions in this thread and the previous one this might have been mentioned before, but I still feel the need to write because no one around me really care about fundies. I feel that Jill really struck gold when marrying Derrick. It could so easily have gone in the opposite direction. 
One thing that struck me reading the first chapter of the book is how the Duggar kids were sexualized. Not in the way it could be said that our society is sexualized (e.g. advertisement, movies, young people expected to have sex early on) but in how small children were made aware of not showing parts of their bodies and not tempting others. It’s as children were looked upon as adults with sexual thoughts, or something. In my world a 5-year old is supposed to be carefree, run around, do somersaults or whatever without worrying about showing a belly or leg. Is this what IBLP teached? It would have made more sense if this view in the Duggar household would have emerged after Josh’s initial abuse, but if I get it right the thing with modesty came earlier. Of course it wouldn’t have been right either way. 
And it’s just awful how JB treated Jill. Horrible. The fame and the money really did bring out the worst sides of him. I think he would have been better off without the show. How can Michelle stand by him? I have a lot more thoughts, but we’re off to the cinema now.

I also have to wonder about JB’s own behaviors and attitudes toward sex. I know that there was an element of “playing it up” for the show, but I will never forget that scene on the golf course when the parents where chaperoning one of Jessa and Ben’s first dates (it might have been their first date). I think as the kids got older, JB taunted them with his behaviors. Basically JB is a bully. FWIW, I do not think JB has a healthy relationship with or attitude about sexuality.

[Bethy]

5 hours ago, Cupcake79 said:

Another note. How on earth didn’t Michelle and JB connect the dots when they found out what Josh had done to his sisters? Why didn’t they realize that something is not right with the way they raise their children? Psychologically it’s quite interesting.

The movement is very persuasive - promising that if you follow their plan, you will have a good outcome. That's how they got so many people to sign on. If you're not getting the promised results, you haven't done it faithfully enough - you just need to spank more, isolate your kids more, have longer family devotions, ratchet up the modesty, give more money, and then God will bless you with the promised outcome. And whereas most thinking people would see what happened with Josh and say "Whoa, this doesn't work, we are scrapping this RIGHT NOW," I'm guessing JB and Michelle probably doubled down on it instead. 

[SassyPants]

2 hours ago, Bethy said:

The movement is very persuasive - promising that if you follow their plan, you will have a good outcome. That's how they got so many people to sign on. If you're not getting the promised results, you haven't done it faithfully enough - you just need to spank more, isolate your kids more, have longer family devotions, ratchet up the modesty, give more money, and then God will bless you with the promised outcome. And whereas most thinking people would see what happened with Josh and say "Whoa, this doesn't work, we are scrapping this RIGHT NOW," I'm guessing JB and Michelle probably doubled down on it instead. 

And clearly a young Jill understood that her family, despite all the wonderful experiences she described in her book about life before the show, was not a perfect, golden, IBLP family. She knew…