Dillards 94: After Counting the Cost

[JermajestyDuggar]

11 hours ago, viii said:

You have to wonder how many other families in the IBLP universe have similar stories with sons like Josh. 

I can’t help but imagine that a lot of these families deal with issues like Josh. I think isolation and ignorance could be part of it. If you aren’t allowed to even look at girls in public, you might start peeping on your sisters. And if you get caught peeping on your sisters, you’ll just be shamed and punished. No one will actually talk to you about how it’s ok to be curious but it’s not ok to spy on someone while undressing. And they won’t help with the curiosity by educating them about puberty and sex. If everything is hush hush and shamed, it won’t help anyone. The person just gets better at hiding their shameful behavior. I think that if you are educated about puberty, sex, masturbation, and consent, you are probably less likely to violate others. But if everyone leaves you ignorant and ashamed, nothing will change. I think Josh just became a better liar. He had to always live a double life. Starting from the time he started molesting his sisters, I think he learned how to hide things better and better each time. I think he learned when he was young to find porn online. He was always the one who was good at computers. I think he learned how to hide his internet activity from his family during the teen years. Sorry I’m a bit rambling today. But I can’t help but think these IBLP created situations of ignorance and shame breed abuse. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

9 hours ago, Cupcake79 said:

What the heck? I honestly can’t understand how someone could consider this right. I’m a fairly conservative christian myself but it’s crystal clear to me that I would never teach my kids this way of thinking.

Another note. How on earth didn’t Michelle and JB connect the dots when they found out what Josh had done to his sisters? Why didn’t they realize that something is not right with the way they raise their children? Psychologically it’s quite interesting.

They could’ve had a bit of sunken cost fallacy. Thinking we’re this far in might as well keep going. 

[Hasunah2]

I think it would be good for  people to look at purity culture and its effect on men , not just women . Boys are taught that they can't help it , boys will be boys but without proper sex education , how is this boy going to react to puberty and awkward unwanted boners and wet dreams . They can't really prevent that . And when all and everything sexual is sinful and a danger to salvation  this has to feel like your own salvation is out of your own hands and you depend on other to keep you save.

[Giraffe]

1 hour ago, Hasunah2 said:

I think it would be good for  people to look at purity culture and its effect on men , not just women . Boys are taught that they can't help it , boys will be boys but without proper sex education , how is this boy going to react to puberty and awkward unwanted boners and wet dreams . They can't really prevent that . And when all and everything sexual is sinful and a danger to salvation  this has to feel like your own salvation is out of your own hands and you depend on other to keep you save.

Yup. Until they admit that it's a feature rather than a bug nothing will change. Because at the end of the day they don't actually care about "purity," they care about control. 

[lumpentheologie]

I think sibling sexual abuse is very, very common in IBLP/ATI. I read the book Lovingly Abused by Heather Grace Heath, an ATI survivor. Highly recommend the book. She spent some (hellish) time at the training centers and said that it was so common for girls to be abused by their brothers that she was told the only reason she hadn’t been was because she didn’t have any brothers. 

[Bethy]

9 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

I think sibling sexual abuse is very, very common in IBLP/ATI. I read the book Lovingly Abused by Heather Grace Heath, an ATI survivor. Highly recommend the book. She spent some (hellish) time at the training centers and said that it was so common for girls to be abused by their brothers that she was told the only reason she hadn’t been was because she didn’t have any brothers. 

In Shiny Happy People, Jill talks about how they minimized what was done to them by Josh and I think she said something to the effect of "we know other people had it a lot worse than us" and now I'm wondering whether she meant other girls in the big bad world, where girls aren't "protected" and Bad Things Happen, or if she meant other ATI families. 

[sndral]

1 hour ago, Bethy said:

In Shiny Happy People, Jill talks about how they minimized what was done to them by Josh and I think she said something to the effect of "we know other people had it a lot worse than us" and now I'm wondering whether she meant other girls in the big bad world, where girls aren't "protected" and Bad Things Happen, or if she meant other ATI families. 

In the 2015 Kelley interview when JB was trying to whitewash the whole thing & keep the TLC gravy train going Jill said statistics show 2/3s of families go through something ‘like this.’ I’ve always wondered whether that was what she was told by her parents or whether that was based on her experience/what was claimed in ATI circles.

I’ve linked the transcript, but apologies for it being faux news, which I generally avoid giving clicks to, couldn’t find another source. https://www.foxnews.com/transcript/exclusive-duggar-sisters-want-to-set-the-record-straight

[Cam]

This is from an online article about the Mayeghayen Kelly interview where JB mentions that they learned molestation happened in “a lot of families” they’d talked to.

As the Duggars explained why they didn't seek professional help for teenaged son Josh after he admitted to molesting five young girls, four of them his sisters, they said they reached out to their church and friends for advice.

That was when Jim Bob offhandedly mentioned the feedback he received from other parents --presumably from within their inner circle -- as they attempted to keep the potential scandal under wraps.

"It was a very difficult situation," Jim Bob explained. "But as we talked to other parents and different ones since then, a lot of families have said that they have had similar things that happened in their families."

What ticks me off how JB and Meech were so outspoken over porn and transgender bathrooms and right to chose, but after apparently learning that incestuous childhood molestation happens in a lot of families, they never considered addressing it as a problem within their own religious denomination. It’s as if they accepted it as par for the course. They used smoke and mirrors to say, “pay no attention to the sin in our camp, look what unrighteous wrongdoing these people over here are involved in!”

Edited October 9, 2023 by Cam

[Giraffe]

2 hours ago, Bethy said:

In Shiny Happy People, Jill talks about how they minimized what was done to them by Josh and I think she said something to the effect of "we know other people had it a lot worse than us" and now I'm wondering whether she meant other girls in the big bad world, where girls aren't "protected" and Bad Things Happen, or if she meant other ATI families. 

I'm speculating because it wasn't clarified. I've always assumed the "worse than us" was ATI families. 

[Kiki03910]

16 hours ago, lumpentheologie said:

I think sibling sexual abuse is very, very common in IBLP/ATI. I read the book Lovingly Abused by Heather Grace Heath, an ATI survivor. Highly recommend the book. She spent some (hellish) time at the training centers and said that it was so common for girls to be abused by their brothers that she was told the only reason she hadn’t been was because she didn’t have any brothers. 

Thank you for this recommendation. I got the ebook yesterday and it is CRAZY.

[Kiki03910]

Welp. I was today years old when I learned that a 1972 Supreme Court ruling (Wisconsin v Yoder) determined that parents' religious beliefs supercede children's rights to an education. The case involved the Amish. I am horrified and depressed.

[Fundyrunner]

Derick was on Dave Ramsey's Podcast yesterday - The Ramsey Show. It's on youtube. He's on about 1 hour 25 minutes into the show. He says that they got $50,000 on the day of the book release and that more is coming in. He provided their family income and said that their house is paid off.  

Dave knew who Derick was and after he had laid out their whole financial picture, they discussed the book. Free advertising? I'm betting it was a planned call. 

[Jasmar]

God, Dave Ramsay is such a fking prick. I’m not surprised that Derrick would be enough of a fan to (at least) appear on his podcast, but I am disappointed. Some of the accusations against DR are widely known and very ugly.

[SassyPants]

Getting off JB’s strings was the best thing to happen to the Dillards. They ripped that bandaid right off and got the help that they needed. I am sure this just reinforces JB’s hatred of both education and the educated.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I appreciate the openness of talking about income and money. I think it’s good to talk more openly about money in the US. I think we are too hush hush about it. But damn, Dave Ramsey is just the worst. Talk to someone else about money!

[Xan]

16 hours ago, Kiki03910 said:

Welp. I was today years old when I learned that a 1972 Supreme Court ruling (Wisconsin v Yoder) determined that parents' religious beliefs supercede children's rights to an education. The case involved the Amish. I am horrified and depressed.

As far as I can tell, in the US, children have a right to be born and not to be murdered.  That's about it.  There might be some minor state laws but generally kids don't have rights to adequate food, shelter, medical care, or education.  They are effectively owned by their parents.

[noseybutt]

1 hour ago, Xan said:

As far as I can tell, in the US, children have a right to be born and not to be murdered.  That's about it.  There might be some minor state laws but generally kids don't have rights to adequate food, shelter, medical care, or education.  They are effectively owned by their parents.

It is why the US will not sign the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

 

[smittykins]

One thing surprised me:  how early JB was drawn into IBLP.  I know that on SHP, he said that he attended his first Basic Seminar in high school, but in CTC he said that he went to a “rock and roll is EBILLLL!” seminar at 12/13 that “convicted” him to smash his 8-tracks of contemporary Christian music with a hammer(and NGL, I got a kick out of him having to explain to the kids what 8-tracks were.)

[lumpentheologie]

9 hours ago, Xan said:

As far as I can tell, in the US, children have a right to be born and not to be murdered.  That's about it.  There might be some minor state laws but generally kids don't have rights to adequate food, shelter, medical care, or education.  They are effectively owned by their parents.

Yes, children don’t have a federal right to an education in the US. It’s one of the problems with having a 250 year old constitution. 

My father was a lawyer and I was taught, like many Americans, to revere the US constitution as the guarantor of our freedoms. Doing a PhD in European history was a long process of deconstruction around that.

Since most European countries were founded or re-founded during the 20th century, they got new constitutions with much more modern rights — nice things like education, health care, gender equality. They don’t have the same kinds of political fights we do about the intentions of the founding fathers. In a weird way US military success has kept us frozen in the past, rights wise. 

Americans like to think our constitution is a beacon of light to the world, but honestly people from other democracies just feel sorry for us being chained to the old thing. 

[AprilQuilt]

I've finished Jill's book and tend to agree with the poster who said they thought that she was not ready to write it. I think she's clear-eyed about some things but with others, especially the line that everything was great before the show, and it was the show that spoiled everything... no. That doesn't ring true. Michelle was having her laundry-room breakdown and Josh was already assaulting his sisters well before they got the show. Maybe it brought out the worst in JB, but there is no saying what he would have been like if the show had not transpired. Perhaps he was always a vindictive guy and Jill simply wasn't old enough to see that side of him.

It felt in some ways an exercise in doublethink: "Pops ripped me off and screwed me over so many, many ways, and treated me like nobody should ever treat another human, but I love him and he's a good guy and maybe we'll reconcile". I get Christian grace and forgiveness. I get that you don't just stop loving a parent even if they're a monster. I get that just because JB was awful in that context doesn't mean he didn't give the children fun and happiness too. But I still feel that the two things Jill is trying to say don't actually gel. I commend her for trying to forgive him while maintaining her personal boundaries, but I don't know if she's totally successful in that yet and that makes me worry that the wounds are still too raw for this book to be published painlessly.

But, also, I respect her judgement and autonomy. It's not my life, it's hers, and she's done incredibly to get this far, so if she judges she is ready to do it and she has the support in place, it's not for me to say she should have held back on it.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

On 10/9/2023 at 1:20 PM, sndral said:

In the 2015 Kelley interview when JB was trying to whitewash the whole thing & keep the TLC gravy train going Jill said statistics show 2/3s of families go through something ‘like this.’ I’ve always wondered whether that was what she was told by her parents or whether that was based on her experience/what was claimed in ATI circles.

I believe 2/3 is ATI numbers or based on her experience. The current statistics for child sexual abuse is 1 out of 6 boys, 1 out of 4 girls, 1 out of 3 gay or trans kids will be sexually abused. Those numbers don’t quite add up to 2/3 but what the Duggars accidentally got right was child sexual abuse is alarmingly common. What they got wrong was that there’s nothing to be done about it. 
 

2 hours ago, AprilQuilt said:

I've finished Jill's book and tend to agree with the poster who said they thought that she was not ready to write it. I think she's clear-eyed about some things but with others, especially the line that everything was great before the show, and it was the show that spoiled everything... no. That doesn't ring true. Michelle was having her laundry-room breakdown and Josh was already assaulting his sisters well before they got the show. Maybe it brought out the worst in JB, but there is no saying what he would have been like if the show had not transpired. Perhaps he was always a vindictive guy and Jill simply wasn't old enough to see that side of him.

It felt in some ways an exercise in doublethink: "Pops ripped me off and screwed me over so many, many ways, and treated me like nobody should ever treat another human, but I love him and he's a good guy and maybe we'll reconcile". I get Christian grace and forgiveness. I get that you don't just stop loving a parent even if they're a monster. I get that just because JB was awful in that context doesn't mean he didn't give the children fun and happiness too. But I still feel that the two things Jill is trying to say don't actually gel. I commend her for trying to forgive him while maintaining her personal boundaries, but I don't know if she's totally successful in that yet and that makes me worry that the wounds are still too raw for this book to be published painlessly.

But, also, I respect her judgement and autonomy. It's not my life, it's hers, and she's done incredibly to get this far, so if she judges she is ready to do it and she has the support in place, it's not for me to say she should have held back on it.

Jill alludes to not all being well before the show. She talks about the religious legalism around dancing vs ‘jumping for joy’, being excited that TLC was footing the grocery bill so they could get enough filling food which implies they didn’t get enough regularly, and makes a reference to nightmares she has as an adult about things that took place in an Arkansas bedroom. Most of it, you had to read between the lines.

She may be giving Michelle a pass or holding out hope for reconciliation with Jim Bob because that’s just where she is and it’s a hard thing to break up with your parents. It took me years to realize they weren’t going to change and for my own sake I had to put up boundaries. I am still wading through this crap in therapy. 

[Bobology]

Even though Jill still has processing and healing to go, this may have been the opportune time to write and publish her book. There is still some national interest in the whole Duggar debacle and the longer they are off the air the more the interest will wane. Earning the book money is nice, but it may have been more important for Jill to set some details straight as she sees them, especially since she has taken so much criticism by fundie-types for "creating" the rift with her parents. Right now (especially with SHP) there will be many more readers than there might be down the road when she may see even more clearly how badly JB treated her.

In addition to clearing up some details now, it could be important to her to get her word out to help others (including her siblings) who have endured horrible manipulation, control, lack of education, etc, at the hands of their parents or someone. The book could certainly plant some seeds of clarity in the minds of others who need that clarity, and someone else may seek professional help for themselves.

Writing the book now also gives her the chance to write another if she ever wants to, and already have a base of readers even if the Duggars have mostly faded into obscurity. It could also pave the way for another sibling to come out with their own story (and I am so hoping for that!)

Edited October 11, 2023 by Bobology
word removal

[AprilQuilt]

4 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I believe 2/3 is ATI numbers or based on her experience. The current statistics for child sexual abuse is 1 out of 6 boys, 1 out of 4 girls, 1 out of 3 gay or trans kids will be sexually abused. Those numbers don’t quite add up to 2/3 but what the Duggars accidentally got right was child sexual abuse is alarmingly common. What they got wrong was that there’s nothing to be done about it. 
 

Jill alludes to not all being well before the show. She talks about the religious legalism around dancing vs ‘jumping for joy’, being excited that TLC was footing the grocery bill so they could get enough filling food which implies they didn’t get enough regularly, and makes a reference to nightmares she has as an adult about things that took place in an Arkansas bedroom. Most of it, you had to read between the lines.

I know, I've read it. I'm saying that she says or implies all this in the book and still concludes that it was the show that really changed everything and was the root of the family's problems. It's also interesting that she acknowledges she and Derick disagree about precisely how culpable her parents are for all the trauma their daughters went through, from Josh's initial abuse to its many many repercussions. She's very clear about who she blames (names them frequently! and yes she has a point) but I feel that's only half the picture and she's unwilling or unable to see the rest of it. I agree, much of that may be because of her obvious longing for a close relationship with her parents and siblings; but on the other hand she is clear that this is the path she's chosen to walk, and the grief of losing the family she once had is worth enduring for the chance to live authentically and truthfully.

I think unpicking all this is probably a lifetime's work but she's written this from the midst of it. Totally fine to do, but things may crystalise differently for her one day, so I just hope she's comfortable to stand by this book as representing a particular moment of her healing and becoming, rather than the final word on all of it.

[patsymae]

On 10/9/2023 at 1:20 PM, sndral said:

In the 2015 Kelley interview when JB was trying to whitewash the whole thing & keep the TLC gravy train going Jill said statistics show 2/3s of families go through something ‘like this.’ I’ve always wondered whether that was what she was told by her parents or whether that was based on her experience/what was claimed in ATI circles.

I’ve linked the transcript, but apologies for it being faux news, which I generally avoid giving clicks to, couldn’t find another source. https://www.foxnews.com/transcript/exclusive-duggar-sisters-want-to-set-the-record-straight

IIRC JB also said that he'd talked with other families, and this was really common. So this seems to be their norm.

On 10/10/2023 at 3:10 PM, Jasmar said:

God, Dave Ramsay is such a fking prick. I’m not surprised that Derrick would be enough of a fan to (at least) appear on his podcast, but I am disappointed. Some of the accusations against DR are widely known and very ugly.

And over objections, Dave Ramsey's book has been approved as part of the curriculum in--yup-Florida.

https://www.npr.org/2023/09/28/1202264881/why-was-dave-ramsey-s-financial-literacy-textbook-approved-in-florida

[Father Son Holy Goat]

4 hours ago, patsymae said:

And over objections, Dave Ramsey's book has been approved as part of the curriculum in--yup-Florida.

https://www.npr.org/2023/09/28/1202264881/why-was-dave-ramsey-s-financial-literacy-textbook-approved-in-florida

I can see why fundies like Dave Ramsey. Instead of taking a nuanced view towards debt and credit he says it’s all bad. Thoughtful use of debt and credit can be helpful but sure let’s demonize it instead of adjusting your relationship to it, like they do with sex, porn, alcohol, dancing…