Dillards 94: After Counting the Cost

[MadameOvary]

On 10/12/2023 at 4:51 AM, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I can see why fundies like Dave Ramsey. Instead of taking a nuanced view towards debt and credit he says it’s all bad. Thoughtful use of debt and credit can be helpful but sure let’s demonize it instead of adjusting your relationship to it, like they do with sex, porn, alcohol, dancing…

Dave Ramsey is a creep, but his audience will benefit from hearing about the awfulness of JB Duggar. And Jill will benefit from associated book sales - at this point I'm in the camp of she richly deserves every penny.

[eljayem]

As this is in the book I'm using the spoiler feature - not sure how concerned people are about being spoiled in this situation but better safe than sorry don't want to wreck someone's else's enjoyment

I just finished listening to the book so I'm paraphrasing and not direct quoting or referencing page numbers

Spoiler

Jill mentioned a sibling, a brother, coming to her for advice about wanting to court/date someone without their Dad interfering or taking over. Later on she says the father of one of her brother's fiance coming to her to get her side of the story and after the conversation saying he felt like he could better support his daughter once she married into the family. Any speculation on which sibling/s she's referring to? I guess because of timing it would have to be either Justin or John David right? I think it might be John David because he's the one that walked in and announced in engagement - no awkward tv episodes showing their courtship and courtship rules and being chaperoned etc. Also Abby's family is less suck-up to the Duggars than Claire's parents. On the other hand Justin got out of Arkansas as soon as he could - which may have been Jill's advice.

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by eljayem

[marmalade]

I think it could have been 

Spoiler

Jeremiah. Definitely not Jed. He's pickled in the kook aid. Are the Wissmanns IBLP? 

 

[Melissa1977]

36 minutes ago, marmalade said:

I think it could have been 

  Hide contents

Jeremiah. Definitely not Jed. He's pickled in the kook aid. Are the Wissmanns IBLP? 

 

Wissmanns are very fundie. The keep sweet, smile all the time, train your child type of fundie.

[marmalade]

I know they're very fundie. Just wondering specifically about IBLP. All the other sons are married to IBLP women. 

[Bobology]

I can't remember the timeline of the various siblings getting married, but I'm going with Josiah being the brother. His very short courtship with Marjorie (sp?) was splashed all about and I think his dad was the reason. The Swansons and Duggars knew each other for some time I've read, but that doesn't mean Lauren's parents *really* knew how JB ran things within the home and with the boys. On Instagram, Jill mentioned at least once about having a game night with Josiah and Lauren, even after JB's punishment or rejection of Jill had begun. That showed a closeness between Jill and Josiah, at least during that time.

[JermajestyDuggar]

My brain leans towards JD, Joe, or Si as the brother in question and here’s why: I can’t help but assume it’s not someone who got married more recently. I would guess it was a boy who got married in 2017-2018. So that knocks out the twins and Justin. I can’t imagine seeing all these other brothers get married and then ask a sister for tips. You would ask a brother before you would ask a sister. But Jill was first to get married after Josh. She has the experience the brother wants to learn from. So a brother who got married before a ton of other brothers got married would be my guess. That leaves JD, Joe, and Si. I definitely think it’s one of those three. Joe got married first out of all of them. Then Si and then JD. I’m thinking it’s not Joe because the Caldwells and the Duggars were so close when they started courting. I know they’ve had a falling out since. But at the time of their courtship, I believe the Duggars attended the Caldwell church and seemed to be close family friends. That leaves Si and JD. IIRC, didn’t the Swansons move to AR to be closer to the Duggars? If so, that makes me think Pa Swanson wouldn’t contact Jill. Since they would move to another state for the Duggars. Which leaves JD. I do believe the Burnetts and Duggars have known one another through the big fundie events. But I don’t actually know if they were close friends like the Bateses. They may have only been friendly acquaintances. Unfortunately the Burnetts got rid of their blog so we can’t look back and see if the families ever visited each other. I could imagine JD in the role described by Jill. I could see him getting her opinion. But I could see Si doing that too. I guess I just have a hard time seeing Pa Swanson doing that. 
 

My first guess: JD

Runner up: Si

[justmy2cents]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

My brain leans towards JD, Joe, or Si as the brother in question and here’s why: I can’t help but assume it’s not someone who got married more recently. I would guess it was a boy who got married in 2017-2018. So that knocks out the twins and Justin. I can’t imagine seeing all these other brothers get married and then ask a sister for tips. You would ask a brother before you would ask a sister. But Jill was first to get married after Josh. She has the experience the brother wants to learn from. So a brother who got married before a ton of other brothers got married would be my guess. That leaves JD, Joe, and Si. I definitely think it’s one of those three. Joe got married first out of all of them. Then Si and then JD. I’m thinking it’s not Joe because the Caldwells and the Duggars were so close when they started courting. I know they’ve had a falling out since. But at the time of their courtship, I believe the Duggars attended the Caldwell church and seemed to be close family friends. That leaves Si and JD. IIRC, didn’t the Swansons move to AR to be closer to the Duggars? If so, that makes me think Pa Swanson wouldn’t contact Jill. Since they would move to another state for the Duggars. Which leaves JD. I do believe the Burnetts and Duggars have known one another through the big fundie events. But I don’t actually know if they were close friends like the Bateses. They may have only been friendly acquaintances. Unfortunately the Burnetts got rid of their blog so we can’t look back and see if the families ever visited each other. I could imagine JD in the role described by Jill. I could see him getting her opinion. But I could see Si doing that too. I guess I just have a hard time seeing Pa Swanson doing that. 
 

My first guess: JD

Runner up: Si

I agree it’s probably JD. It seems the Duggars were acquainted with the Burnetts but not close which is why JD mentioned that he saw Abbie at some convention he flew his parents to and consulted with JB about getting to know her. Holy run on sentence.

[Meggo]

2 hours ago, justmy2cents said:

I agree it’s probably JD. It seems the Duggars were acquainted with the Burnetts but not close which is why JD mentioned that he saw Abbie at some convention he flew his parents to and consulted with JB about getting to know her. Holy run on sentence.

I feel like - even though I don't know anything about Abbie's parents - the fact that she got a higher education, that she was older and maybe not likely pushed TO get married - I could see a dad reaching out to make sure he could support his smart, hard working daughter as she started to find her way in this family. Also - could see that dad reaching out to Jill for it as one of the married ones who might be a little more "wordly" in a way (having a husband who isn't a preacher and steeped in koolaid, having travelled a tiny bit etc) 

But who knows.

 

[Letgo]

I tried to go back and use the timelines of the courtships/engagements/weddings of the Duggar brothers and ended up with JD as my choice for who asked for Jill’s advice. It kind of made sense to me because he was older when he met his wife and I don’t think Abbie’s family was quite as restrictive as the Duggars. She was at least allowed to get somewhat of an education and be an LPN, I think? Can that be done at home or would she actually need to take classes with others who might not be on the same level of Christian conservatism?
After reading Jill’s book and learning that she is always supposed to obey her parents, even when married, it made me wonder which set of parents wins in a disagreement. What if the young couple has a decision to make and her parents think they should do X and his parents say they should do Y? Which parents should be “respected” and obeyed? What if the couple wants to do Z? How is the decision made?

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, Letgo said:

I tried to go back and use the timelines of the courtships/engagements/weddings of the Duggar brothers and ended up with JD as my choice for who asked for Jill’s advice. It kind of made sense to me because he was older when he met his wife and I don’t think Abbie’s family was quite as restrictive as the Duggars. She was at least allowed to get somewhat of an education and be an LPN, I think? Can that be done at home or would she actually need to take classes with others who might not be on the same level of Christian conservatism?
After reading Jill’s book and learning that she is always supposed to obey her parents, even when married, it made me wonder which set of parents wins in a disagreement. What if the young couple has a decision to make and her parents think they should do X and his parents say they should do Y? Which parents should be “respected” and obeyed? What if the couple wants to do Z? How is the decision made?

IMO the whole question of “which parents to obey” is partly why the Dillards have split and may have contributed to the rift with the Caldwells.

[Bassett Lady]

2 hours ago, Letgo said:

She was at least allowed to get somewhat of an education and be an LPN, I think? Can that be done at home or would she actually need to take classes with others who might not be on the same level of Christian conservatism?

She lived in the state of Oklahoma, and almost all LPN students, there,  are studying through technical centers. These technical centers are usually free of tuition until students are 26 years of age.
 

The LPN course work may not be completed at home, or entirely via online studies. The academic courses may be taken that way, but the practical labs must be in person.

 

The training, and testing, for this license is not fundamentalist approved as students learn how to treat and care for male and female patients. They must be able to correctly insert a foley catheter for male and female patients. 
 

I wonder if Bill Gothard ever needed a catheter? Would he ask for a male nurse to attend to his medical needs? Is that somehow a better option in his close minded universe? 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Bassett Lady

[CarrotCake]

I don't recall it precisely but I thought there were 2 brothers mentioned: one that approached her personally and one where the father of the girl approached her. So it could be both JD himself as Dwain Swanson.

[Bobology]

1 hour ago, CarrotCake said:

I don't recall it precisely but I thought there were 2 brothers mentioned: one that approached her personally and one where the father of the girl approached her. So it could be both JD himself as Dwain Swanson.

Yes, that's the way I read her book yet I merged them into one brother, and it may be centered around one brother, but probably not. There is good 'spectator' rationale for either JD or Josiah in both instances. Joe just doesn't seem aware or curious to me to even know to care. "With this ring I be wed." (I've had plenty of my own wtf did she just say moments, but I still chuckle at Joe.)

[Father Son Holy Goat]

On 10/26/2023 at 4:13 PM, Letgo said:

What if the young couple has a decision to make and her parents think they should do X and his parents say they should do Y? Which parents should be “respected” and obeyed? What if the couple wants to do Z? How is the decision made?

There’s no conflict in Jim Bob’s mind because the person who must always be respected and obeyed is him. Obviously!

[AprilQuilt]

On 10/27/2023 at 8:33 AM, CarrotCake said:

I don't recall it precisely but I thought there were 2 brothers mentioned: one that approached her personally and one where the father of the girl approached her. So it could be both JD himself as Dwain Swanson.

I read it as two different brothers too.

My personal interpretation of it is that JD could well have been the one to discuss JB-free courtship with Jill, but that the father who approached Jill was probably not Abbie's. It would be a father whose daughter was younger and with less experience of the world than Abbie; probably a father who took seriously his 'umbrella of protection' role in terms of not wanting to hand his daughter over to the Duggars if all was not well. Could have been Swanson, or maybe Cory Nakatsu - who came to IBLP relatively late on and whose ex-wife is not part of it - still had enough of an outsiders' eye to worry even if Katy and Jed! were all-in. It sure as hell won't have been Paul Caldwell.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I listened to a podcast Derrick and Jill were on. Nothing new. But Jill did make a joke that the word courtship triggers Derrick. Which I thought was funny. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

On 10/28/2023 at 7:27 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

I listened to a podcast Derrick and Jill were on. Nothing new. But Jill did make a joke that the word courtship triggers Derrick. Which I thought was funny. 

I can imagine the word homeschool does too.

[SassyPants]

4 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I can imagine the word homeschool does too.

I know I say this a lot, but I wonder at what point DD realized that beyond the Bible, Jill had, at best, a 7th grade education? And more so, what did he think about that?

[JermajestyDuggar]

2 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I know I say this a lot, but I wonder at what point DD realized that beyond the Bible, Jill had, at best, a 7th grade education? And more so, what did he think about that?

I assume he thinks she’s common sense smart. Like street smart. And that’s probably good enough for him. But it definitely won’t be good enough for his kids. And yes, I know she was sheltered. But she obviously is naturally intelligent. Like common sense intelligent. You can see it from book excerpts. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by JermajestyDuggar

[Father Son Holy Goat]

3 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I assume he thinks she’s common sense smart. Like street smart. And that’s probably good enough for him. But it definitely won’t be good enough for his kids. And yes, I know she was sheltered. But she obviously is naturally intelligent. Like common sense intelligent. You can see it from book excerpts. 

I’m not sure I’d say Jill was street smart given how sheltered she was. But I do think she’s emotionally intelligent. 

[EmiSue]

6 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I’m not sure I’d say Jill was street smart given how sheltered she was. But I do think she’s emotionally intelligent. 

I was going to say that she's very perceptive of other people, and she seems more naturally curious than some of her siblings. I doubt Derick would be happy with, say, Joy.

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 hour ago, EmiSue said:

I was going to say that she's very perceptive of other people, and she seems more naturally curious than some of her siblings. I doubt Derick would be happy with, say, Joy.

Yes, considering her upbringing, she’s extremely thoughtful, curious, and questioning. 

[treehugger]

A person can be intelligent but not well educated. Jill seems like that kind of person. Intelligent enough to be curious and open minded and thoughtful. I think even though there is a pretty big education gap between her and Derick, they are fine. 
I went to college for a very practical degree, and my husband never finished his degree, but he has a very successful company, and in the strange way life has, most of our social and professional circles are made of of people with Masters and Doctoral degrees.  Being a thoughtful conversationalist does not require higher education. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by treehugger

[CarrotCake]

I do think Jill is a curious person at heart. This was already visible in the past when she wanted to be a midwife or expand her knowledge of other cultures abroad. And now that she is opening up her believes she is probably reading into a lot of things. That alone is very different from a person like Jessa or Joy who, even if they were moving away from fundiedom, would not bother learning new things.

Even the fact that Jill is deconstructing is a sign that she is curious and intelligent.