Dillards 93: Counting the Cost - Indeed

[Cam]

@twoandthrough, thank you for the excerpts from Vanity Fair. Wow, between Free Jinger and the Duggar Redditt forum the past two days, my brain is on overload. Like oversaturated from the proliferation of details Jill’s shared to reading everyone’s take on what we’re learning. I feel punch drunk from it! Sooo much to process!

Interesting that Jill mentions Anna needing space. This is exactly what Amy claims Anna told her when they ran into each other at a recent funeral, “Give me space.” Well, who the f could blame any of them. For many years, it musta been like living in a sardine can. Now that the dam is bursting, they are learning to put boundaries in place and it probably feels so fucking good. To allow themselves to consider their own thoughts and not thoughts that JB or Gothard are shoveling into their heads. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by Cam

[JermajestyDuggar]

I think it’s fine to give Anna space. She probably needs it. I wonder if JB doesn’t want to give her as much space as she wants. 

[TuringMachine]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

When Jill (or others) speak of protecting Josh, I don’t think JB, and by extension Michelle, were protecting Josh, the person, over their daughters. They were protecting the Duggar name and fame ( and more recently earning potential) over everything else. 

If Jill DUGGAR or Jana DUGGAR had been on trial vs Josh, I think JB’s response would have been the same. 

JB doesn’t care about anyone beyond himself. He cares about controlling others and making money.

The love of money is the root of all evil. Well, JB Duggar is definitely evil.

He will throw anyone under the bus when he feels his back is against the wall and his earning potential is being diminished.

Who the hell is ballsy enough to state in court “I will not allow that’???????

I'm not sure I entirely agree. Well, with the JB's response would have been the same bit. I 100% agree that JB's main concern was protecting their empire. 

I'm having a hard time picturing JB encouraging one of his children to sacrifice themselves for a sister the same way Jill and Jessa were encouraged to sacrifice themselves for Josh. 

Also I think sex crimes, or maybe even just bad behavior in general are more forgivable for men than women. It's perfectly normal for men to have sinful urges, right? That's why it's on women not to "tempt" them.

I dunno I guess I just feel like if it were a daughter they'd be much more willing to throw her under the bus to protect the family image rather than try to hide or downplay like they did with Josh.

[NachosFlandersStyle]

What I've found particularly interesting while reading this is how it connects to the kind of speculation that was going on over here as the events were happening. Is it actually a big deal that she wore pants, when we'd already seen another sister doing the same? (Yes, with a ton of private drama.) Did something really bad happen with Samuel's birth or were they just trying to stay out of the spotlight? (Both, but it was really really bad.) Is Derick acting out on twitter just a sign that he's a dick? (Not entirely.) FJ can definitely overanalyze things or read too much into instagram posts or the lack thereof. But sometimes what's happening behind the scenes really is that dramatic. Whew!

[gobucks]

I watched the YouTube live interview with Book Passage. Jill says she will not mention any specific siblings besides Jinger that she is close with because she wants to respect their privacy.

[sableduck]

1 hour ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think it’s fine to give Anna space. She probably needs it. I wonder if JB doesn’t want to give her as much space as she wants. 

I think Anna just wants space from anyone who doesn’t believe in Joshy Boy’s innocence.

I also wonder how many NDA’s and other threatning things JB has had her sign in return for financial support.

[viii]

I’ve really appreciated the way Jill handled her siblings in her book. By respecting their privacy, she isn’t alienating anyone and hopefully leaving the door open for her siblings to come to her for help if they need it. 

[SassyPants]

7 minutes ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

What I've found particularly interesting while reading this is how it connects to the kind of speculation that was going on over here as the events were happening. Is it actually a big deal that she wore pants, when we'd already seen another sister doing the same? (Yes, with a ton of private drama.) Did something really bad happen with Samuel's birth or were they just trying to stay out of the spotlight? (Both, but it was really really bad.) Is Derick acting out on twitter just a sign that he's a dick? (Not entirely.) FJ can definitely overanalyze things or read too much into instagram posts or the lack thereof. But sometimes what's happening behind the scenes really is that dramatic. Whew!

Indeed. I remember the rumors that Jill needed to have a hysterectomy post Sam’s delivery- welp, in Jill’s own words, she really didn’t know if she would ever be able to carry a baby again. So there was some truth to those rumors. A ruptured uterus is a big deal- 2 weeks of NICU care is a big deal (and massively expensive). Did they even have insurance?

I also remember a rumor from years ago that there was a siting of Josh and JB at a strip club. With all we know about Josh coupled with my low opinion of JB, I have not totally dismissed that rumor from my brain.

[Cam]

22 minutes ago, sableduck said:

I think Anna just wants space from anyone who doesn’t believe in Joshy Boy’s innocence.

I also wonder how many NDA’s and other threatning things JB has had her sign in return for financial support.

Yeah, because now we know this is how he operates, by controlling with chunks of cash and NDAs. 

We’ve learned how horrific he was to Jill and Derick, I’m sure he’s been just as horrific with Anna. I’m no Anna fan, but she’s been manipulated by so many men in her life. She’s been surrounded by chaos for so long. Maybe she’s getting some space and is able to sort out her own thoughts from others’ demands. I think she will read Jill’s book. Not sure if she’d ever go the book route herself, but Jill gave her a blueprint of sorts. At the very least, maybe Anna could see counseling from the same place Jill does. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Cam

[viii]

59 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I also remember a rumor from years ago that there was a siting of Josh and JB at a strip club. With all we know about Josh coupled with my low opinion of JB, I have not totally dismissed that rumor from my brain.

Josh - yes, absolutely. I’d believe that. But Jim Bob?! No chance in hell. Men like that don’t flaunt their “sexual transgressions”. They do it in private with manipulation, coercion, and force. 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

4 hours ago, viii said:

THIS!!!!

Sorry that I keep bringing up my childhood, but so much of Jill's life is triggering and reminiscent to my own. My cult "ended" in 2003 because our leader was accused of sexual abuse and embezzlement. The world wide umbrella of my cult collapsed, with majority of the churches disbanding (although a few denied the accusations and remains together). However, in my local community, the "church" just picked up and moved to a new church - driving out the original members of this church until they were completely in power and things resumed back to normal. Nobody woke up and realized the theology they were preaching and teaching was 100% wrong. So while my cult officially ended in 2003, I feel like I didn't get out of the cult until 2017. 

This is bringing up stuff from my childhood as well. That itemized bill that Jim Bob gave Jill is similar to a stunt my parents pulled multiple times. I’m feeling very spacey and dissociated this week because I can clearly see the similarities between Jim Bob/Michelle and my parents but the reactions of others are so starkly different. The people in my life still insist there’s nothing wrong with my parents whereas Jim Bob and Michelle are rightly being called out.
 

I hope you are taking care of yourself and extending yourself lots of love. I’m actually extremely proud of myself for handling my triggers, for journaling and feeling my feelings, and most of all for not using any eating disorder behaviors while I go through this. 

 

2 hours ago, Cam said:

@twoandthrough, thank you for the excerpts from Vanity Fair. Wow, between Free Jinger and the Duggar Redditt forum the past two days, my brain is on overload. Like oversaturated from the proliferation of details Jill’s shared to reading everyone’s take on what we’re learning. I feel punch drunk from it! Sooo much to process!

Interesting that Jill mentions Anna needing space. This is exactly what Amy claims Anna told her when they ran into each other at a recent funeral, “Give me space.” Well, who the f could blame any of them. For many years, it musta been like living in a sardine can. Now that the dam is bursting, they are learning to put boundaries in place and it probably feels so fucking good. To allow themselves to consider their own thoughts and not thoughts that JB or Gothard are shoveling into their heads. 

I’m glad Anna is setting boundaries. I hope she gets the space she needs to be able to do the work she needs to do. 

[viii]

Disassociating is such a good way to describe. Unfortunately, my binging has been winning this week. Ugh. 

[Pleiades_06]

20 hours ago, GreenBeans said:

Probably because she does not consider that problematic. They are still conservative in their views (would be considered fundamentalist in many countries other than the US), and I’d be surprised if they did not follow the “spare the rod, spoil the child” concept and beat their children.

They are considered very conservative in the US too. 

[Wolf in Sheeples’ Clothing]

5 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Who the hell is ballsy enough to state in court “I will not allow that’???????

I forgot about that! What was he ‘not allowing’ again?

[OrchidBlossom]

On 9/12/2023 at 5:18 PM, FleeJanaFree said:

Some siblings still reach out to her for advice. Such as one brother asking for girl advice. He doesn’t want to confide in JB. Trust those instincts, kid. 

This part struck me the most when I read it, in a way. I wondered who she was referring to. 

Reading the book definitely gave me a sense of empathy toward Jill and a sense that she really is still untangling the dangerous things she was raised to believe. But it also made me wonder whether she will ever come as far as some members of FJ (myself included) might want to see her come. She downplayed Derick's "opinions" on Twitter for example, and while that doesn't shock me that there was no introspection on that, it left me wondering if she has the desire or capacity to change her underlying belief systems or if her personal growth is going to remain centered on shifting to a less legalistic religious viewpoint that still maintains those underlying beliefs.

I think it could still go either way. She's young, and has done a lot of growth for where she started. And I wasn't expecting to read "and fuck republicans abortions for everyone" but I was hoping to see more evidence that she wasn't just wearing the same old Christianity, now with pants. 

She reminds me of a friend of a friend who grew up in evangelical circles similar to IBLP (not the exact same). This acquaintance has since evolved to a more loving and "progressive" Christianity but her brother, who also left the strictly dogmatic church they grew up in, basically just adopted a slightly less rigid version of Christianity that never required him to question other underlying prejudices he had.

I was really moved, though, reading about the struggles she felt when she realized that god "closing the womb" might happen earlier than she anticipated. I feel as though the second half of that phrase is one that evangelicals never consider-- they look down on women who don't have a million kids and yet that isn't really trusting god either, is it? That isn't something I'd seen discussed much.

[postscript]

2 hours ago, NachosFlandersStyle said:

What I've found particularly interesting while reading this is how it connects to the kind of speculation that was going on over here as the events were happening. Is it actually a big deal that she wore pants, when we'd already seen another sister doing the same? (Yes, with a ton of private drama.) Did something really bad happen with Samuel's birth or were they just trying to stay out of the spotlight? (Both, but it was really really bad.) Is Derick acting out on twitter just a sign that he's a dick? (Not entirely.) FJ can definitely overanalyze things or read too much into instagram posts or the lack thereof. But sometimes what's happening behind the scenes really is that dramatic. Whew!

I’ve gotten through most of the book tonight and was having the same thought, particularly with regard to their time in El Salvador. I remember there was a point when they seemed to be flying home every couple of months. Interesting to hear that it was mostly for the show and mostly against their wishes. They also took a lot of criticism at the time for staying on the mission compound, but it sounds like the gang violence put them on very real danger. It sounds as though the physical distance between them and her family and the exposure to other influences helped them disassociate from the show and the family. 

Young Josh acting as president of a club to denounce pornography strikes a delightfully ironic note. That turned out well for you, Josh. 

I wish she’d given more detail about her upbringing and the incidents with Josh, but those details don’t necessarily fit her narrative. It sounds like she doesn’t want to talk about Josh any more than she has to. The omissions also leave the door open for more memoirs later. 

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I also remember a rumor from years ago that there was a siting of Josh and JB at a strip club. With all we know about Josh coupled with my low opinion of JB, I have not totally dismissed that rumor from my brain.

I remember that rumor, too. At the time, I thought it was credible. Sometimes the guys who are most vocal about sexual transgressions are the ones with the secret lives. Plus they seem to see women as objects.  I could definitely see Jim Bob taking Josh thinking seeing real live exotic dancers might get the urges to view porn out of his head. 

[viii]

I just don’t think Jim Bob would ever so publicly risk his reputation like that. 

Also, speaking of El Salvador… wasn’t there a situation where Jill panicked and it turned out it was just a shower curtain falling? I feel like I remember people here just roasting her over that. 

[Xan]

39 minutes ago, viii said:

I just don’t think Jim Bob would ever so publicly risk his reputation like that. 

 I have mixed feelings about this.  Mr. Xan had an acquaintance, whom I'll call Harvey, who had a wife and decided he also needed a girlfriend.  I asked him some years later why he was so public about it.  It humiliated his wife and they divorced.  He said that, at the time, he felt invincible and somewhat invisible.  He'd drive with the girlfriend around their small town in a convertible with the top down.  He said he hadn't meant to hurt his ex-wife but he just couldn't think straight.

Jim Bob has spent way too many years thinking about sex -- how many babies he could make, how to stop his children from having sex, how to keep the family from being exposed to anything he considered sexual, how to make his relationship with Meech look even sexier.  He had to have periods of boredom when he himself wanted to ogle a few breasts -- particularly when he hit that dicey midlife time.

TL; dr - sometimes people going through issues like midlife crises rely on the non-existent brains in their genitals.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Xan

[LooseMoose]

7 hours ago, viii said:

Maybe I'm too cynical, but that doesn't mean much to me. We have no idea what JB has told Jessa to do and I wouldn't put it past him to encourage Jessa spend time with Jill to spy on her. That's a tactic that was used a lot in the cult I grew up in. 

I grew up fundie-lite and in college I had a boyfriend who went to a much more fundie church than I did. They had people spying on us all the time. My roommate, his best friends brother, a painter who was doing work at his parents house, anyone who had any connections, even the smallest ones, to his church were asked to watch us and report back. 

[rebeccawriter01]

15 minutes ago, LooseMoose said:

I grew up fundie-lite and in college I had a boyfriend who went to a much more fundie church than I did. They had people spying on us all the time. My roommate, his best friends brother, a painter who was doing work at his parents house, anyone who had any connections, even the smallest ones, to his church were asked to watch us and report back. 

My ex was extremely fundie when it served his purpose. He changed religious affiliation like most people change underwear. The cult he joined at the end of our relationship would record his confessions of sins and use them as blackmail. He was so sure he was free of sin that he decided to confess things I had done or he thought I had done. They sent the recordings to my parents after I refused to pay (increase his tithe).

[NoneIsEnough]

Regarding the sisters lawsuit, the judge did actually conclude that the records were released illegally. The laswuit was dismissed because the sisters did not meet the burden of proof that the city officials acted intentionally to harm the sisters, and that the sisters were actually harmed by the release. 

The officials thought they were acting within the FOIA law and that they had a deadline to meet, but did not realize that there were exceptions to the FOIA law in regards to sexual assault victims and to families identified as "in need of services" which I believe the Duggars were. 

You can read the full summary of why the case was dismissed here. The dismissal was not because the release was legal and they had no right to sue, it was other reasons outlined in the summary.  

Excerpt below  

Spoiler

In their sudden rush to release the reports, Defendants failed to adequately investigate the applicable law. Neither report should have been released, even with redactions. The Arkansas FOIA is not all-inclusive, which is to say, other Arkansas statutes contain provisions that either expressly or effectively allow additional exemptions and exceptions to the FOIA.

The individual Defendants were seasoned government officials tasked with the responsibility of deciding which governmental records should be publicly released and which should not. Yet all individual Defendants were seemingly ignorant of the privacy rights Arkansas affords to sexual assault victims and to families that are identified as “in need of services.”

Under Arkansas Code § 16-90-1104(b): A law enforcement agency shall not disclose to the public information directly or indirectly identifying the victim of a sex offense except to the extent that disclosure is: (1) Of the site of the sex offense; (2) Required by law; (3) Necessary for law enforcement purposes; or (4) Permitted by the court for good cause. (emphasis added).

In the instant case, even though the Springdale Police Report and Washington County Incident Report contained redactions, both reports quite obviously identified the victims of a sex offense. The redacted reports revealed that the victims were the minor children of Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar, that the perpetrator of the sexual abuse was also a child of the same parents, and that the victims lived in the same home with the perpetrator

Moreover, the disclosure of the reports was not required by law. Because the Duggars were the subject of a FINS case, the police reports affiliated with that FINS case were specifically exempted from disclosure under the FOIA, pursuant to the Arkansas Child Maltreatment Act, which states: Any data, records, reports, or documents that are created, collected, or compiled by or on behalf of the Department of Human Services, the Department of Arkansas State Police, or other entity authorized under this chapter to perform investigations or provide services to children, individuals, or families shall not be subject to disclosure under the Freedom of Information Act of 1967, § 25-19-101 et seq.

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by NoneIsEnough

[Vivi_music]

The book coming out this week and the reviews slowly starting to come in, it took me back when I started to watch the show. I was a teen back then, but someone I felt something was amiss about that family. It felt intriguing, yet weird. Then of course came the wild ride that has been FJ. I remember everyone going so hard on Jill, saying she was deep in the cool-aid, that she was a goody two shoes, daddy's little gofer or even a clingy and overbearing newly wife. This was almost a decade ago so maybe not everyone remembers but Jill was NOT popular on here. But underneath the mocking (and of course I mocked... I'm not an hypocrite), I knew she had been indoctrinated all her life and was a victim just like all kids are when born into a cult.

Then time passed. We saw the first glimpses here and there of her individuality coming to the surface. Some changes seemed cosmetic at first. The question was always... is she going more for a mainstream image with jeans and a nose ring, while still being a staunched believer? But then some information started to leak.Jill wasn't allowed at her parents place without Jim Bob's permission. Jill wasn't allowed to see the minor children still living at home without her parents present. Slowly but surely, the lips started to loosen up and she started to feel more comfortable in her truth. The final straw was certainly seeing her parents defend her pedophile brother (Jill's words! YEAH!) in court.

And now I am just so proud. I sound corny and cheesy. I know! I don't care. I feel bad that she went through all this. I do feel sorry for her. But to think of the young girl she was on TV, who seemed like a goody goody tattletale, is now the same strong young woman who has found her voice.  Wow! I never would have guessed back in 2009 or 2010 that she would have been the Duggar child to go on this journey. Never! But I'm so happy she did. I feel such warmth for a perfect stranger and I hope the vibes I'm sending into the universe reach her someone.

Enough with my cheesiness, I'm off to order her book!

[Father Son Holy Goat]

3 hours ago, postscript said:

Young Josh acting as president of a club to denounce pornography strikes a delightfully ironic note. That turned out well for you, Josh. 

That part made me think of children playing at patriarchy. I found it funny that the most important part of Boycott was the snacks. 
 

What’s the betting the porn being sold was Sports Illustrated swim suit edition or something similarly racy but not porn? 

[slp]

On her current beliefs:  give her time.  Ten years ago I wore long skirts and didn’t cut my hair and made my daughters dress modestly. I homeschooled and prayed for my abusive husband and tried to be more submissive and obedient so he would turn fully to god.  🙄. Six years ago I wore pants and had cut hair and was about to put my kids in public school for the first time, was a single divorced mom and took my first legal deink of alcohol. I was a nurse w a job outside the house  For the first time.  I had come a long long way from the cult.  
 

I still had some toxic beliefs. I still believed homosexuality was wrong (had gay friends and loved them but believed they were “in sin”) I was “pro life” although I didn’t believe in protesting or co demning anyone for abortion.  
 

I grew slowly.  I learned. I lost a LOT in my personal life.  I stepped away from church. I deconstructed. I’m less than five years time my views are totally flipped.  Give her time. You never know. 😊

[Kiki03910]

12 hours ago, vienna said:

I am proud of Jill. What a journey. It is interesting, that the compliant ones like Jill and Jinger are the ones to (start to) break free. A stong personality like Jessa didn't stand a chance. She probably has been broken again and again and I guess, for her to go back to her childhood would be way more hurtful.

Another thing: Jinger mentioned it in an interview now also Jill mentions it in her book: Gothard made (certain) girls take a vowe not to marry until a certain age. With Jana beeing HQ and still not beeing married l, I am now convinced she took the vowe.

I think the 2 girls who are most "free" are the ones where JB fucked up and let them marry educated, potentially (ahem, Jeremy, you smarmy fucking leech) self-supporting men. He lost control there. I do think Jill had it in her anyway. Bet on none of the younger girls getting a husband with a brain, let alone an education.