Dillards 93: Counting the Cost - Indeed

[Xan]

8 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I wonder what kind of itemized bill JB would present to Jana? She’s been living at home for 33 8/12 years. Food, utilities, room, phone, insurance, trips, clothing…and on and on.

I don't think Jana will ever leave.  There has been gossip occasionally about Jana having relationships that JB & M forced her to quit but I don't know how true any of it was.  She's been around children so much that I doubt she's that interested in having any of her own.  Remember the police report not long ago about a kid being found out on the road?   The understanding at the time was that Jana was in charge of possibly Anna's kids and just wasn't paying attention.  She's checked out.  She's done.  They can support her while she plays in her garden or goes out for coffee.  She'll be pulled in to help from time to time but I think she's carved out a little life of her own right there on Jim Bob's property.

And if Jim Bob every becomes disabled, I can see Jana pushing him around the living room in an office chair.  She'll stay but she's seen too much to do it graciously.

[scoutsadie]

6 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

It is not fun to stay at that YMCA

😆😆

[Ilovebrownies]

I think Jill was far too kind to JB in her book.  He is the worst kind of person.  Physical abuse, emotional abuse, religious abuse, financial abuse.  She should never ever speak to him again.

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

On 9/13/2023 at 7:56 AM, DalmatianCat said:

I had a marathon reading session and finished the whole book today…my general impression was she holds JB accountable and everyone else is just doing his bidding or as trapped as she was. 
She definitely wants to leave the door open for her siblings to come to her. She mentioned one of her siblings FIL asking for her side of the story so he would know how to support his child who was marrying into the Duggar family and that a brother came to her and asked how to pursue a relationship with a girl without Pops taking over.

Yes who was this? Any thoughts which future in laws? 

[Tdoc72]

On 9/13/2023 at 2:23 PM, SongRed7 said:

My copy of the book comes today. I've been taking it all in and it's shocking. 

I guess what surprises me the most is Joy and Austin. Sure sounds like they signed the agreement as well. But I can't imagine it sits well with Austin. Don't get me wrong, I don't like his personality and he treats Joy with condescension on the videos she posts.

But in a way, that might make sense. For his dud of a personality, he does seem hardworking and more independent, has  his own company.  Purely speculation, but perhaps that is why he comes off "flat" or "hostile"  almost on the videos.  They signed a pact with the devil so they have to film (If it's true that JB gets the money from their social accounts). It's almost as if he's saying, "I don't like doing this, but I will because I have to. But I'm certainly not going to put on a "happy" show.

On the flip side, Joy always seems to have pleading eyes to him in the videos  "honey, please just film this with me" 

I mean, during Josh's trial he seemed genuinely pissed off at Josh and JB and supposedly he had a blow out fight with Anna later on.   I know I'm probably reading into things, but more than any of them I feel like you can read regret/fear/disgust on Austin and Joy's faces. 

 

Full disclosure—I got the book today but haven’t read it yet. 
 

I don’t know I’d the siblings were aware of all this contract talk Jill & Derek started. So they may have signed willingly and only later or recently became aware of the actual details.  I don’t give credence to the social media payments going to JimBob. I could change my mind but if it were a requirement, then wouldn’t all of the kids have to do it?  Several of them either quit SM or are barely on it. 

8 hours ago, seraaa said:

In the PEOPLE interview when she's talking on camera about her relationships with the family, she said she sees her mother and some of her sisters at birthdays, and that some of her other siblings are supportive behind closed doors. Because she phrased it like that, it does make me think that at least some of the boys also support what she's doing

I can’t remember which one but one or two were at her new house helping her fix it up. 

[MadameOvary]

9 hours ago, seraaa said:

In the PEOPLE interview when she's talking on camera about her relationships with the family, she said she sees her mother and some of her sisters at birthdays, and that some of her other siblings are supportive behind closed doors. Because she phrased it like that, it does make me think that at least some of the boys also support what she's doing

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say Josiah is supportive and JD & Abby are possibly fence-sitting noncommittally. I could see it being JD who wanted Jill's advice on how to make a move on a girl without involving JimBlob.

[St.Clara]

5 hours ago, JDuggs said:

What’s interesting to me is that Joy wants everyone to know how close she feels with Jinger now even though Jinger wrote a book “disentangling” from how they were raised because it wasn’t directed at the parents. But Jill actually exposing JB’s true self was too far for Joy.

As is for a lot of conservative Christians, seemingly. I have watched many Youtube reactions to „Shiny Happy People“, from conservative to absolutely fundamentalist Christians. I thought it interesting that even the latter felt compelled to adress the documentary (instead of ignoring it), if even to just say what utter ungodly bullshit it was. Most, at least, acknowledged that the abuse was horrible while complaining at the same time that the documentary had „an agenda“ in order to defame Christians.

That being said, within this context I read nothing but praise for Jinger´s book and more or less harsh critique of Jill (for taking part in the documentary and talking about her parents). There is a clear pattern imo of painting them as „the good girl“ and „the bad girl“. So, if Joy is friendly with Jinger and distant with Jill, she is but following in the footsteps of those conservative Christians who are truly appalled by what Josh did but are not willing to reflect on themselves and their way of life.

Within this context I find it remarkable that Jinger so openly sides with Jill. With more conservative people, she might face some backlash for that.

Edited September 15, 2023 by St.Clara

[JermajestyDuggar]

7 hours ago, Ilovebrownies said:

I think Jill was far too kind to JB in her book.  He is the worst kind of person.  Physical abuse, emotional abuse, religious abuse, financial abuse.  She should never ever speak to him again.

I can understand it though. She still loves her dad, her mom, and her siblings living in the home. If she completely cuts him off, she cuts off her mom and siblings. 

[Cam]

11 hours ago, JDuggs said:

From Joy’s IG. It surprises me that she didn’t just ignore this comment, like she ignored the one about reading Jill’s book. I definitely have felt that Joy has had a rift with Jill for a few years now and Joy is upset with Jill for ruining the brand. I think she’s the main sibling that Jill is extending grace to.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Hm. Makes me think Joy signed a contract and is indebted to JB. Wouldn’t that have occurred before Josh was ever arrested for downloading csam? So she would not have know the extent of his molestation of her which she seemed only to learn at the trial. And would Joy have been married when signing the contract so she and Austin both signed it? Maybe that explains some of Austin’s seeming anger at the trial. He was thoroughly duped by JB yet signed a contract so he has to cow tow to him.  

I can see Joy and Austin deciding that they just have to roll with the punches and accept this. Remember Joy calling JB about her last pregnancy to show him the pee stick? She’s team JB. Austin is so different from a Derick or a Jeremey. Joy doesn’t have the intellect of Jill or Joy and she didn’t take the brunt of things like the older girls due to her being the 9th kid. I don’t think she wants to take on anything, no confrontations, not deal with any fallout, just live her life. 

[SongRed7]

14 hours ago, seraaa said:

Because she phrased it like that, it does make me think that at least some of the boys also support what she's doing

Not to mention they all have signed NDAs so they can't say anything legally. But now that the cat is out of the bag, i would love to see JB try to enforce the NDA.  Would he take his own child to court? Sue them and get even more bad publicity?  Some of those other siblings may now realize they sold their souls for $80,000.  sure , that seems like a lot of money and it is, but in the end was it worth it??

[SassyPants]

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I can understand it though. She still loves her dad, her mom, and her siblings living in the home. If she completely cuts him off, she cuts off her mom and siblings. 

What bothers me about this is how JB would preface his texts and voice messages with “we love you Jill.” IMO, if you love somebody you do not actively take advantage of them. Loving someone means you place that person’s need on par with your own. JB spent years actively f*cking over his kids both as minors and adults. JC, in what world is attempting to control adult, married, neurotypical people OK???? 100% that is cult thinking. Clearly JB is still “controlling” a whole lot of families. Also, would JB/M EVER have allowed themselves, as adults, to live under LJ Duggar’s umbrella of protection?

I am proud of DD and Jill for getting out.

[MadameOvary]

21 minutes ago, SongRed7 said:

Not to mention they all have signed NDAs so they can't say anything legally. But now that the cat is out of the bag, i would love to see JB try to enforce the NDA.  Would he take his own child to court? Sue them and get even more bad publicity?  Some of those other siblings may now realize they sold their souls for $80,000.  sure , that seems like a lot of money and it is, but in the end was it worth it??

I'm not sure JB has fully realized he is no longer in control of the narrative. After all he is the man who thought running for office and pimping his family for TLC money while sheltering a pedophile was a good idea. Not the sharpest tool in the box.

[Queen Of Hearts]

18 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Jim Bob ascribes to YMCA 

Yourself first

Money second

Children third 

Anyone else last 

This is perfect!

[JermajestyDuggar]

23 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

What bothers me about this is how JB would preface his texts and voice messages with “we love you Jill.” IMO, if you love somebody you do not actively take advantage of them. Loving someone means you place that person’s need on par with your own. JB spent years actively f*cking over his kids both as minors and adults. JC, in what world is attempting to control adult, married, neurotypical people OK???? 100% that is cult thinking. Clearly JB is still “controlling” a whole lot of families. Also, would JB/M EVER have allowed themselves, as adults, to live under LJ Duggar’s umbrella of protection?

I am proud of DD and Jill for getting out.

Yes, he’s very much a manipulator. He always has been. 

[Coconut Flan]

38 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

What bothers me about this is how JB would preface his texts and voice messages with “we love you Jill.” IMO, if you love somebody you do not actively take advantage of them. Loving someone means you place that person’s need on par with your own.

My mother tried the emotional manipulation angle with me of I love you and only want the best for you, then the here's what you should do.  She got a snappy rejoinder of if you truly love me, then you'll love me enough to let me live my life on my terms and yes make my own mistakes if they are indeed mistakes.  

Poor JB, Jill went out into the world and found out love with strings is no love at all.  "Love" used for manipulation isn't love either. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Coconut Flan

[waltraute]

20 hours ago, noseybutt said:

I am a fan of survivors being granted privacy and space if that is what they want.

But the feeling humiliated troubles me. Yes, it is s common response. And yes, she feels what she feels

But the humiliation is due to manipulation by the offenders and the idea (from society) that sexual abuse survivors did something wrong.

Could we stop that already?

 

In her book, she said that she felt that way because of her upbringing. She was brought up to regard modesty above all else and that it was the girl's responsibility to keep attention from her body, so to have the details of her abuse made public in that matter was especially mortifying. It was exactly her point that she was brought up to believe that sexual abuse survivors have done something wrong. Under those circumstances, of course, she would have those feelings.

[Queen Of Hearts]

I am really curious about how JimBob and Michelle's relationship will look once JB reads this book.  It seems there are many occasions where Michelle may have undermined JBs authority and JB may not be happy when he finds out.  Two that stand out are 1.) Michelle telling Jill she was glad she did not answer JBs call when he was ranting out of control, and 2.) Michelle's midnight drop off of the TLC contract to Jill - maybe that was approved by JB but I just find it odd that he would send Michelle out at midnight to drive half an hour to drop it off... my speculation was this was something she may have done on her own?  There were a couple other examples, but those two jump out.  

[JermajestyDuggar]

9 minutes ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

I am really curious about how JimBob and Michelle's relationship will look once JB reads this book.  It seems there are many occasions where Michelle may have undermined JBs authority and JB may not be happy when he finds out.  Two that stand out are 1.) Michelle telling Jill she was glad she did not answer JBs call when he was ranting out of control, and 2.) Michelle's midnight drop off of the TLC contract to Jill - maybe that was approved by JB but I just find it odd that he would send Michelle out at midnight to drive half an hour to drop it off... my speculation was this was something she may have done on her own?  There were a couple other examples, but those two jump out.  

I guess I see it differently. I can’t help but see her not going behind his back, but being the peacekeeping go between. It seems like she doesn’t want any sort of major confrontation between JB and Jill/Derick. 

[Cam]

20 minutes ago, waltraute said:

In her book, she said that she felt that way because of her upbringing. She was brought up to regard modesty above all else and that it was the girl's responsibility to keep attention from her body, so to have the details of her abuse made public in that matter was especially mortifying. It was exactly her point that she was brought up to believe that sexual abuse survivors have done something wrong. Under those circumstances, of course, she would have those feelings.

I forget where I came across the following excerpt, but it was written by Benjamin Cremer, a reverend who want to “discover how we can move away from Christian nationalism, religious fundamentalism, and church hurt to reclaim the Gospel of Jesus together.”

 

Blaming women for men’s temptation objectifies and dehumanizes women. Blaming women for men’s temptations make them responsible for things completely beyond their control: a man’s eyes, mind, lust, and heart. A man’s eyes, mind, lust, and heart are his responsibility, not hers.

When we continue to perpetuate unbiblical narratives, like Bathsheba’s immodesty causing King David to fall into sin, we not only teach unbiblical gender objectification in our families and churches that continue to have deeply traumatic and abusive results, but we deny any form of discipleship that teaches men the habits and disciplines necessary to hold themselves accountable for their own temptations, rather than blaming them on someone else. 

Our Christian understanding of human dignity begins with how we present the narratives of scripture. Jesus valued, dignified, and empowered women and explicitly rejected any form of objectification toward women in his ministry on earth. 

If our interpretation of narratives like King David doesn’t reflect the life and teachings of Jesus, then we need to rethink our interpretation of scripture.”

- Benjamin Cremer

[Queen Of Hearts]

20 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I guess I see it differently. I can’t help but see her not going behind his back, but being the peacekeeping go between. It seems like she doesn’t want any sort of major confrontation between JB and Jill/Derick. 

I agree with your thoughts regarding her motivation, but feel JB would see that "peacekeeping" as lack of respecting his authority.

12 hours ago, Xan said:

I don't think Jana will ever leave.  

Jana can't afford to leave!  With JB keeping accounting of all her rent and such she likely would have to take out loans just to get out of servitude!  

And speaking of Jim Bob's accounting, I had to laugh at him trying to charge Jill market-rate rent and utilities when in reality all she had amounted to a bed in a hostel... and one she was not allowed to move from even if she wanted because of the "umbrella of authority."

If I was Jill I would have countered his bill with one of her own - for the countless hours as babysitter/teacher, cook, and house cleaner!

[SassyPants]

Just finished the book…I am a bit conflicted in Jill seemingly indicating that life before the show being better for the family. Or maybe she was indicating that the show changed JB?? IDK, the family was associated with IBLP well before the show. Being associated with IBLP was not wholesome at all. The way the Duggars were living and the decisions that they were making were horrible. I think the family was on a bad road event before TLC/F-8/Discovery came knocking on their door. There was not enough (any?) healthy food in the home. There were too many people living in close quarters to be considered a safe or hygienic environment, and they kept adding more and more. Yes, it seems JB and M (especially) were well intentioned, but the numbers got to them and they ended up making really poor decisions in assigning parenting duties to their eldest daughters and refusing to fully acknowledge their son’s abusive behaviors. And of course, continuing to add more children. 

Also, Jill kept referring to the show as their “ministry.” How was that show a ministry? How are shows about getting wisdom teeth extracted or going to an anatomy scan for baby bajillion a ministry? Most Christians are well informed on the workings of the life of Jesus. I think the draw was the uniqueness of the family. And they were not unique because they were Christians. They were different because of IBLP. And what was IBLP? A cult. Who was leading IBLP when the Duggars and their show were the most popular? Bill Gothard. Is Gothard or his ministry wholesome?? Did JB and M fall for the rhetoric of Gothard? Was that a good decision?

Michelle leaves me scratching my head. The way that Jill describes her, she was a good mom. One might say she was a saint. I don’t get it. If Jill is to be believed, Michelle really is living between a rock and a hard place.

[SweetLaurel]

I was thinking of the lost girls and the rite of adult passage.  "You are getting to be so grown up!  Almost an adult.  Here are two things you need as you become a woman, your purity ring and your NDA.  We're so proud of you!"   

[JermajestyDuggar]

22 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Just finished the book…I am a bit conflicted in Jill seemingly indicating that life before the show being better for the family. Or maybe she was indicating that the show changed JB?? IDK, the family was associated with IBLP well before the show. Being associated with IBLP was not wholesome at all. The way the Duggars were living and the decisions that they were making were horrible. I think the family was on a bad road event before TLC/F-8/Discovery came knocking on their door. There was not enough (any?) healthy food in the home. There were too many people living in close quarters to be considered a safe or hygienic environment, and they kept adding more and more. Yes, it seems JB and M (especially) were well intentioned, but the numbers got to them and they ended up making really poor decisions in assigning parenting duties to their eldest daughters and refusing to fully acknowledge their son’s abusive behaviors. And of course, continuing to add more children. 

Also, Jill kept referring to the show as their “ministry.” How was that show a ministry? How are shows about getting wisdom teeth extracted or going to an anatomy scan for baby bajillion a ministry? Most Christians are well informed on the workings of the life of Jesus. I think the draw was the uniqueness of the family. And they were not unique because they were Christians. They were different because of IBLP. And what was IBLP? A cult. Who was leading IBLP when the Duggars and their show were the most popular? Bill Gothard. Is Gothard or his ministry wholesome?? Did JB and M fall for the rhetoric of Gothard? Was that a good decision?

Michelle leaves me scratching my head. The way that Jill describes her, she was a good mom. One might say she was a saint. I don’t get it. If Jill is to be believed, Michelle really is living between a rock and a hard place.

Jill was pretty young when the cameras started rolling. I think when we are young, you can’t see the problems as clearly. She may not have noticed all the financial problems the family was having because she was too young to understand. 

[indianabones]

After reading Jill's book, it made me curious about other fundies memoirs so I read Jessica Willis's book the next day.

Now, that was a tough read. Some parts were so graphic that it made me thankful Jill hadn't described her abuse. It also made it clear that Jill is just beginning her therapeutic journey. I wouldn't be surprised if she writes another book in the next few years about her IBLP and family experiences.

[JermajestyDuggar]

I think JB is a controller. I think there’s a reason why all the older girls said they wanted a husband who wasn’t quick to anger. I think JB has made it very clear in his family that he is quick to anger. I think every kid in that family knows Pops has an “anger problem.” I put it in quotes because I think he can absolutely control his anger when he wants to. I think he uses the possibility of blowing up as a threat to keep them all in line. Including Michelle. I think Michelle hates it when he blows up at the kids and she tries to keep it from happening as much as possible. I think JB uses these 3 things to control most of the time: 

1) the Bible/religion/patriarchy

2) money

3) fear of his anger explosions

And now those three things that have always worked are not working on Jill. And it’s driving him up the fucking wall.