Dillards 93: Counting the Cost - Indeed

[Kiki03910]

10 hours ago, TuringMachine said:

I'm not sure I entirely agree. Well, with the JB's response would have been the same bit. I 100% agree that JB's main concern was protecting their empire. 

I'm having a hard time picturing JB encouraging one of his children to sacrifice themselves for a sister the same way Jill and Jessa were encouraged to sacrifice themselves for Josh. 

Also I think sex crimes, or maybe even just bad behavior in general are more forgivable for men than women. It's perfectly normal for men to have sinful urges, right? That's why it's on women not to "tempt" them.

I dunno I guess I just feel like if it were a daughter they'd be much more willing to throw her under the bus to protect the family image rather than try to hide or downplay like they did Josh.

 THIS. I remain haunted by this passage, which I must add that actually transcends religion, politics, class, race, education level, fucking EVERYTHING:

[Fluffles]

What was in the letter that Michelle said was the most disrespectful thing she ever read? I haven't been able to find it anywhere?

 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

Towards the end Jill borrows Jinger’s “disentanglement” term

[JermajestyDuggar]

I think fundies believe that deconstructing means you end up atheist. And I don’t think that’s true. I think you can deconstruct and still be a Christian. I think that’s why they are using disentangle instead. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

Guys, I’m not going to lie, I do have a bit of a bias against Christian counselors. But that’s only because so many aren’t actually licensed counselors. However if Jill and Derick did find a Christian counselor that is licensed, I say good for them. It sounds like theirs must be licensed. Because the stuff I’ve heard about Christian counselors that aren’t licensed and basically just had a few weeks of “training” by other religious folks is staggering. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

2 hours ago, Fluffles said:

What was in the letter that Michelle said was the most disrespectful thing she ever read? I haven't been able to find it anywhere?

 

The whole thing. It was over 20 pages long and they admitted that they didn’t edit it, so it may have been harsher than they meant it to be.

[JermajestyDuggar]

8 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

The whole thing. It was over 20 pages long and they admitted that they didn’t edit it, so it may have been harsher than they meant it to be.

I think written words can come off differently than spoken words. So I wouldn’t be surprised if it was taken as much harsher and ruder than it was meant to be. I’ve written emails or texts that were taken wrong because they couldn’t hear the inflection in my voice. 

[TN-peach]

13 hours ago, viii said:

I’ve really appreciated the way Jill handled her siblings in her book. By respecting their privacy, she isn’t alienating anyone and hopefully leaving the door open for her siblings to come to her for help if they need it. 

This is an excellent example of how she has learned from therapy and is applying it to her own life. 

[FilleMondaine]

55 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Guys, I’m not going to lie, I do have a bit of a bias against Christian counselors. But that’s only because so many aren’t actually licensed counselors. However if Jill and Derick did find a Christian counselor that is licensed, I say good for them. It sounds like theirs must be licensed. Because the stuff I’ve heard about Christian counselors that aren’t licensed and basically just had a few weeks of “training” by other religious folks is staggering. 

I don't like them, either. Mostly because you don't know what you are getting with a "Christian Counselor", because that phrase in unprotected. Now, if there were more robust language around licensing, I could deal.

[St.Clara]

21 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

The whole thing. It was over 20 pages long and they admitted that they didn’t edit it, so it may have been harsher than they meant it to be.

It may have.

But I rather tend to think that it was not, and that is because of the way the parents reacted when Jill and Derick said they did not mean to hurt them. At that point (at the latest) it would have been time for the parents to ask what they did mean and why they spoke in a way that came across so harshly to them. But from how LB and M behaved themselves (according to Jill and I do not doubt her) I can see that they never had any interest in understanding their child but only in silencing her.

I come from a family with toxic ways of communication. In my experience, there is not a way to speak about your needs and views that would be acceptable if it goes against the interests of powerful family members. There simply is none. You can engage in advanced communication techniques till the cows come home, you will either be ignored or they will blame you for making them sad or angry. As Derick justly said in one of the interviews (he learnt it from their therapist): sometimes, you have to be ok with other people not being ok. Otherwise you will never get anywhere, ever.

(Saying this as a recovering people pleaser.)

[front hugs > duggs]

When I was in college, I had a very difficult relationship with my dad, the brunt of it stemming from how he continued to put his needs/the needs of his girlfriend above mine when I needed the most love/care (due to trauma from my mom). An incident happened and I just could not get over it. I wrote out an email to my dad expressing all my feelings and emotions, mostly pointing out his shortcomings, as I saw it, as a father (who had sole custody over me). I asked my roommate to read it before sending and in her perspective, though it was my truth, it was very harsh and my dad would likely be very hurt by it.

I decided not to send it,  as writing the email itself was a bit cathartic on its own. Nothing in the email would have been untrue, and I'm still unsure in theory if not sending it to spare my dad's feelings was the healthiest move. Anyways, sharing this to say there's probably some parallels to Jill's letter she sent her parents, I think in the case of my dad, he knew he was fucking up and somehow couldn't change his ways, but it made him feel like shit to be reminded of said fuck ups. I don't think JB saw that he did anything wrong at all.

[Mama Mia]

3 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Towards the end Jill borrows Jinger’s “disentanglement” term

The absolute gall of the interviewer asking Jill if she thinks she’ll ever reach out to Josh! Directly after talking about Josh being in the room for that Megan Kelly interview. And why the hell didn’t Meghan Kelly or the producers or anyone object to that at the time!? Vile. 

[viii]

I went to two Christian counselors and I will never go again. Absolutely detrimental to mental health. 

[FilleMondaine]

36 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

I decided not to send it,  as writing the email itself was a bit cathartic on its own. Nothing in the email would have been untrue, and I'm still unsure in theory if not sending it to spare my dad's feelings was the healthiest move. 

Healthiness depends on the goal, in my opinion. Were you wanting to significantly change your relationship with your dad? Then maybe you should have sent it, or did something else to change the dynamic.

But if your goal was to get some healthy separation, you would have undermined yourself by sending it, because the very act of being vulnerable and speaking your truth would have intimated that you want a continued close relationship.

[Jackie3]

2 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Guys, I’m not going to lie, I do have a bit of a bias against Christian counselors. But that’s only because so many aren’t actually licensed counselors. However if Jill and Derick did find a Christian counselor that is licensed, I say good for them. It sounds like theirs must be licensed. Because the stuff I’ve heard about Christian counselors that aren’t licensed and basically just had a few weeks of “training” by other religious folks is staggering. 

Being licensed does not make you a good counselor. It’s not that hard to get licensed as a counselor.

Edited September 14, 2023 by Jackie3

[gobucks]

They name their therapist in the book and acknowledgements but I cannot find any information on him online to say his credentials. 

[viii]

10 minutes ago, gobucks said:

They name their therapist in the book and acknowledgements but I cannot find any information on him online to say his credentials. 

I believe they used a fake name. I think they said right in the book "let's call him XX". 

[St.Clara]

Spoiler

 

I just watched this interview and am quite intrigued by the story of how JB became to be Derick´s prayer partner (around the 53 min mark). I had always thought that Derick had not demonstrated much insight in human nature by choosing JB (which is rather common when you are a young person, so no big deal, just saying). Turns out JB was just one of like 150-200 people Derick had to acquire for his list of prayer partners in order to be able to go to Nepal...

Fascinating stuff. I would have thought a prayer partner would be someone you regularly connect with but with that amount of people this is obviously impossible.

[Cam]

1 hour ago, Mama Mia said:

The absolute gall of the interviewer asking Jill if she thinks she’ll ever reach out to Josh! Directly after talking about Josh being in the room for that Megan Kelly interview. And why the hell didn’t Meghan Kelly or the producers or anyone object to that at the time!? Vile. 

Ugh. The question was simply asked to try and sensationalize the interview. Disgusting.

Regarding sending letters, I pretty much say don’t do it. Write it for the cathartic effect but don’t send it. The meaning behind even simple short texts can be misconstrued and a lengthier letter gives more opportunity for words to be taken the wrong way. A letter is non-retractable. You can say, that’s not how I meant it, but the damage is already done. 

Decades ago when email first got popular, my husband and I had a falling out with his two sisters, their mother (who wasn’t computer savvy) being the center of it all. Back and forth emails got blown out of proportion. It forever altered the relationships. I will never forget those three women ganging up on me.

The other thing is, tho, I had so much more energy to fight back then. In a way, it helped me find out who I was. I kept expecting to feel guilty over the fall-out, but I never did. It finally dawned on me that I was allowed to stick up for myself like that. It was one of the first times for me to feel that way, to not be apologetic. 
 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by Cam

[sassy41]

I was semi curious about what version of the Bible the Dillards use.  I actually started watching the Duggars because of a fascination with religion. I grew up in a very secular agnostic family , and that is where I have landed, but religion (and cults) have always just interested me a lot. 

Also, I just listened to their first (virtual) bookstore appearance.  Again what struck me, as opposed to what Jinger did in her interviews, was that even though they are obviously still faithful (and answered that question), they aren't trying to sell us on that or a particular domination or whatever.  They did talk about following the word of God as opposed to any one person, so that was interesting.  They still want to be missionaries (ughh) but this book, clearly wasn't a part of that mission. 

[slp]

On Christian counselors:  my daughter has done therapy for the past three years. Her counselor is Christian but she still went to a regular secular college and got her degree. Her Christianity didn’t factor into how she counseled my daughter who is unsure what she believes anymore (we both are).  Sometimes the counselor is accredited and licensed and says “Christian” but still adheres to the principles of accepted counseling techniques.  It’s when you get these self proclaimed “biblical counselors” that you run into issues usually.   Ugh.  People who went through some training seminar and decided they can counsel people.  
I was really wary of my daughters therapist at first bc she was Christian and my daughter was working through issues with her identity (she’s since come out as bisexual) ad her faith (she’s agnostic at best). I didn’t want her pushing “biblical principles” on her.  But she hasn’t and my daughter has come SO FAR! She’s left therapy now except for the occasional session for emergency issues.  The therapists Christianity never entered the discussion. 

[lumpentheologie]

16 hours ago, viii said:

Josh - yes, absolutely. I’d believe that. But Jim Bob?! No chance in hell. Men like that don’t flaunt their “sexual transgressions”. They do it in private with manipulation, coercion, and force. 

This is so true. It really just struck me how these men’s “sexual sins” are regularly unconsensual. And when that’s the norm, women and girls “tempting” men into sex mostly means literally asking to get raped. 🤮

[noseybutt]

On 9/13/2023 at 4:04 AM, Tdoc72 said:

They sued the InTouch magazine and the police dept that released the records via FOIA request. I understand why she’s mad that it got out. It was personally humiliating to her and the other victims. However, the police dept redacted the reports and followed the law. So I don’t think they did anything wrong. The tabloids that published the redacted reports didn’t do anything illegal either, more like morally questionable. Josh tried suing as well. His got dismissed way earlier and then finally theirs did as well. 
Here’s an article: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/duggar-sisters-are-suing-everyone-except-for-their-brother-and-parents_n_591ee20be4b094cdba535002/amp

I am a fan of survivors being granted privacy and space if that is what they want.

But the feeling humiliated troubles me. Yes, it is s common response. And yes, she feels what she feels

But the humiliation is due to manipulation by the offenders and the idea (from society) that sexual abuse survivors did something wrong.

Could we stop that already?

 

[Idlewild]

When considering JB’s opinion of himself etc, remember this is the man who, at the height of Josh’s infamy over his CSA  charges, ran for political office and rode on a float with Michelle in a Christmas parade.

the fact that he and Michelle have put out a statement saying they want things kept private is utter BS. He cannot stay out of the limelight and will be back, whether via one of his kids running for office or just ensuring the indentured kids post plenty of good things about him.

[FilleMondaine]

So glad that your daughter got GOOD help, @slp. I just wish that "Christian Counselor" were a protected phrase, including schooling, licensure, and ethics. When people are hurting, it really sucks to give them even MORE things to do in order to get help. Hooray for you and your kid.