(CW: Possible CSA) Josh & Anna 37: Saving the Cocktail Dresses for Court

[Bluebirdbluebell]

I knew when he ducked that subpoena he was going to try something stupid and possibly f**k up his testimony. 

I'm still mad as hell. Fuck you JB!

I don't know that this is about protecting Josh as much as protecting the Duggar name and his own reputation and Michelle's. 

JB is a spineless weasel and amoral coward. How many times does the bible command you to tell the truth? 

Quote

 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:32)

 

[Expectopatronus]

20 minutes ago, Letgo said:

There is no way JB can't remember. He's been thinking about this probably every day since Josh was arrested. I'm sure he thought of what happened when the Ashley Madison scandal occurred. Perjury much?

How on earth could Bobye be considered clergy? They don't allow female clergy. She can't even get a non-clergy job as the only acceptable occupation for women is wife and mother. Women are not allowed to have spiritual authority over men so there should be no possibility of Bobye being a spiritual counselor to Josh.

Josh was a kid though and in their cult adults have authority over kids so she technically could have been. Isn’t Jim Holt the arrogant jerk who said he lost an election due to Josh looking at porn whilst helping out with his campaign? The famous “sin in the camp” dude? And if Bobye and Jim both knew about Josh, can they be charged now with child endangerment since they said nothing? 

[snickerz]

Hopefully the "sin in the camp" will affect Jim Bob's current election too!

I read that People article that was linked about Bobeye Holt's testimony. WHO in their right mind invites a teen boy who has admitted TO YOU that he molested little girls, to live in your home with a house full of your OWN little girls??!?! 

[socalrules]

So based on Bobye’s testimony, Josh started at 12 and it was still going at 15? I just can’t. So it was going on longer than previously believed. Good on Bobye for telling the truth on the stand and not trying to cover for the Duggars. It’s interesting she testified her daughter’s relationship with Josh ended immediately when they found out what he had done. I guess they decided to put their own daughter first. Jim Bob and Michelle probably don’t understand why the Holts would do that. 

I think Jim Bob has finally figured out they screwed up big time and that the argument that Josh’s behavior was “normal” touching by a curious boy line doesn’t fly with regular, decent people. This is why he tried to say as little as possible on the stand. He knows he is backed into a corner and there is no coming back from it. 

[Giraffe]

I'm glad at least Bobye has the integrity to tell the truth. Here's to JB's "forgetfulness" backfiring on him in both the election and his eldest's trial!

[Bethy]

59 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Bobbi, Bobye, Bobby testified that Josh was molesting girls when he was 12 and his parents didn't want to hear about it.

https://people.com/tv/josh-duggar-family-friend-emotional-testimony-court-hearing/?fbclid=IwAR2r8sjUnH40abtIGR_zG-A9seQZOmolQp-6h38n2zVIZSHKkPfIjU1vf-A

I'm not a lawyer and I don't even WATCH very many of them on TV. Would Jim-Bob have been able to hear Bobye's testimony, or been briefed on what she'd said? Because if he could (or otherwise knew beforehand that she wasn't going to lie to protect the Duggar name) I wonder if he got on the stand and played the "I don't recall" card the whole time to try to discredit HER testimony (by making the judge doubt how in the world some unrelated woman could remember all those details, and dates even, when the father of the young man in question doesn't really remember any of it.)

The Holts really are idiots if they invited Josh to live in their home while they had children living at home, though. Glad they ended their daughter's courtship with Josh when they found out what he'd done (the very same day, even) which I'm sure was painful for her at the time but was for the best...but then to let him come live with them? I can't find the ages of their children but if Josh was "dating" their oldest daughter in 2003, then there had to still be younger children in the home when he lived with them a few years later. 

[princessjo1988]

JB did a really great job of coming off as a conceited, entitled ass. Hopefully his political rivals will make excellent use of his appalling testimony, or lack thereof.

So sad for his girls. It’s so clear that his own reputation and Josh comes before all else, even his own daughters. There would many furious conversations going on the big house tonight - I cannot imagine Michelle would be impressed at his performance today, to say nothing of the grown children. I also think Michelle must be bitterly regretting that robocall…. 

My prediction: the big family he was so proud of is going to abandon him - his old age is going to be a very lonely, cold place. I also think of the way Grandpa Duggar was treated (office chair incident) and now, karma is coming for JB. The adoration and public admiration that he craves will now be as dust. 

Hypocrisy always will be found out.

As for the other 18 and grandkids , I hope they all find happiness and therapy and fade into obscurity. My deepest hope that Anna will have the support she needs to connect the dots and leave. I truly believe that at this point, she is trying to survive and cling to what she knows. It’s such a common reaction - my mum took quite a few years to leave my father - even after he was charged with multiple counts of CSA. 
 

But oh, my heart breaks for the girls - innocent parties, who have faced so much trauma with so little support. 

[Chickenbutt]

You all are assuming the girls have critical thinking skills and can discern the nuances of JB's testimony. Are they even aware that by uttering "I don't remember" he is whitewashing the molestation? I just don't think that any of them are capable of that concept. I think they might be uncomfortable with his testimony (if they even know about it) but cannot identify why they are uncomfortable. Derrick might understand it, even Jeremy, but I truly doubt the girls get it. 

[sndral]

8 minutes ago, Bethy said:

I'm not a lawyer and I don't even WATCH very many of them on TV. Would Jim-Bob have been able to hear Bobye's testimony, or been briefed on what she'd said? Because if he could (or otherwise knew beforehand that she wasn't going to lie to protect the Duggar name) I wonder if he got on the stand and played the "I don't recall" card the whole time to try to discredit HER testimony (by making the judge doubt how in the world some unrelated woman could remember all those details, and dates even, when the father of the young man in question doesn't really remember any of it.)

…

Typically witnesses are excluded from court to prevent this type of thing. Once they have testified & if they have been excused (are not going to be needed to testify again) they can remain in the courtroom. The lawyers should not ‘brief’ JB on what Bobye testified to and lawyers should instruct their witnesses to not discuss their testimony with other witnesses. Sometimes the Judge will also instruct witnesses to not discuss their testimony. Of course, who knows whether JB and Josh had a chance to chat or JB had a chance to quiz Anna about Bobye’s testimony before he testified & we’ve seen how the Duggars believe they are above the law.

 

[church_of_dog]

21 minutes ago, Bethy said:

I'm not a lawyer and I don't even WATCH very many of them on TV. Would Jim-Bob have been able to hear Bobye's testimony, or been briefed on what she'd said? Because if he could (or otherwise knew beforehand that she wasn't going to lie to protect the Duggar name) I wonder if he got on the stand and played the "I don't recall" card the whole time to try to discredit HER testimony (by making the judge doubt how in the world some unrelated woman could remember all those details, and dates even, when the father of the young man in question doesn't really remember any of it.

I have been a witnes in a very minor legal case -- it was a bench trial (judge only, no jury) with one citizen accusing another of harassment or something similar.

There were three of us witnesses who had been present when the argument occurred and we were not permitted to hear each other's testimony.  If they separate witnesses for something as minor as this case was, I feel confident they do so for all cases.

[PinkGreyBrown]

There's strategic & tactical considerations to how a case is litigated. On the part of the prosecutors I could see all this Josh's-past stuff being a feint to keep the defense focused on stuff that's not really germane to the prosecution case. I expect the prosecution's case to be mostly technical, ping-backs from cellphones & similar. But the defense has had to put a bunch of effort into this subpoena stuff, might have their eyes off the real ball that is the technology part. Pure isb on my part, but putting it out there for the I-told-you-so rights.

[snickerz]

Interesting Bible verse just posted by Bobye Holt on her FB: 

Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
Gal 4:16

Whatever could that be about? Hmmm? 

[SPHASH]

After reading about Boob's "testimony" the prosecution really needs to get Jill on the stand.

[sndral]

8 minutes ago, SPHASH said:

After reading about Boob's "testimony" the prosecution really needs to get Jill on the stand.

And after reading Jim Bob’s testimony that ‘we told the Arkansas state police’ maybe they should bring in the currently incarcerated for CSA police officer Josh allegedly confessed to.

Edited November 30, 2021 by sndral

[EmCatlyn]

55 minutes ago, Expectopatronus said:

Josh was a kid though and in their cult adults have authority over kids so she technically could have been. Isn’t Jim Holt the arrogant jerk who said he lost an election due to Josh looking at porn whilst helping out with his campaign? The famous “sin in the camp” dude? And if Bobye and Jim both knew about Josh, can they be charged now with child endangerment since they said nothing? 

The “sin in the camp” turned out to be the molestation, I think, not just porn.  I believe everyone else was led to believe it was just porn.

I think that before the Holts get in trouble for not reporting, the Duggar parents would get in trouble.  However, it all happened long ago and no one wants to go there.

It seems to me, however, that the Holts didn’t report Josh back then because he was a kid and the son of a good friend, and Holt did tell JB (according to JB's own account) to take Josh to the police. They probably assumed/told themselves the prayer-and-work camp would fix the problem. (Though they weren’t willing to let Josh marry their daughter.)  Even when the Ashley Madison scandal happened, they may have believed that Josh (though still a sexual sinner) was not a danger to children because the AM site was for committing adultery with women.   They may have been flabbergasted when the child porn stuff came out, and Bobye seems to feel that it is time to speak up. (I am assuming that she was subpoenaed and not her husband because he is a clergyman.)

I have no desire to defend the Holts—who definitely participate in a type of “Christianity” I find wanting, but I have to give Bobye credit for drawing a line. You can forgive as a Christian, but you should not lie or enable.  

[ifosterkittens]

I imagine JB can justify anything to himself in any situation. I wouldn't be surprised if Jim Bob thinks I can't remember the exact words Josh used when I confronted him, maybe it was yes, maybe it was yeah, I'm not sure, can't remember; therefore, I can't remember. 

For a political opponent of JB I don't know that including Jim Bob's testimony would be helpful. Perhaps just acknowledging the Duggar family has quite a bit going on, wish the Duggars your best, and say I (insert political opponent's name here) am 100% available and committed to the role of state senator (or whatever it is).

Some families may think JB's son may have committed these awful crimes, but that isn't the parents fault, and it could seem like a low blow from an opponent. I can see JB quoting the opponent and screaming persecution. JB could probably spin it as Michelle and I did our best as parents, and I know many of you did your best and your child walked a different path, and manage to garner some sympathy. Not everyone follows these cases as closely as we do, and while if people had the facts on how JB handled things I don't think he would get many votes I doubt people who don't know him are going to investigate him that closely. 

[livinginthelight]

The Holts cannot get in trouble for not reporting, as they are not mandated reporters. Or at least Bobye isn't. I'm not sure of Jim's role at the church but it's a gray area if he wasn't a pastor. It also seems the confession came in the context of the friendship and not in an official church capacity. So I'm not seeing liability for either of the Holts.

Edited November 30, 2021 by livinginthelight

[AussieKrissy]

5 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

Heads up. Her account is private so you’ll have to delete that picture. 

Ok thanks I didn't realise thank you 

I can not edit it now hopefully a mod will spot it and do it for me and not put me in the prayer cupboard right before the trial begins and I am gunna be all over fj like a pash rash

Edited November 30, 2021 by AussieKrissy
add stuff

[Bassett Lady]

8 minutes ago, livinginthelight said:

It also seems the confession came in the context of the friendship and not in an official church capacity.

If you are a mandatory reporter, then you are a mandatory reporter, period. Where or how you learn the information is immaterial. 

[kesmom]

I wonder if it sunk in with Anna at all that the Holts instantly ended things with Josh and their daughter when the truth came out.

(edited because my original quote messed up)

Edited November 30, 2021 by kesmom

[QuiverFullofBooks]

Bobye testified that Josh left their home after an incident occurred (not inappropriate touching). What other skeletons are still rattling around in his closet?

[Queen Of Hearts]

8 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Bobye testified that Josh left their home after an incident occurred (not inappropriate touching). What other skeletons are still rattling around in his closet?

My guess maybe that was when he got caught watching porn and the whole 'sin in the camp' story came about.

[BensAllergies]

This article offers a slightly different take. It has me seriously questioning the Holts’ judgment when they invited him into their home. However it does sound like Bobye is willing to be candid. If they are both allowed to testify then it will be clear which witness is credible to the jurors. Here’s one notable quote:

https://www.nwahomepage.com/northwest-arkansas-news/josh-duggar-trial-judge-to-rule-tuesday-on-allowing-testimony-about-duggars-prior-allegations/amp/
 

Spoiler

At several points, Jim Bob appeared to get flustered with the prosecution’s questioning. There were issues where he would extrapolate further on his answers beyond the questions the prosecution asked. Judge Brooks took a moment to pause the questioning when it got to a more heated moment. 

The judge addressed Jim Bob saying this is a “difficult and unfair situation” that he’s in and that he needs to just answer the questions being asked.

 

[Anna Bolinas]

2 hours ago, socalrules said:

I think Jim Bob has finally figured out they screwed up big time and that the argument that Josh’s behavior was “normal” touching by a curious boy line doesn’t fly with regular, decent people. This is why he tried to say as little as possible on the stand. He knows he is backed into a corner and there is no coming back from it. 

Unfortunately, he seems to still be making the argument that Josh was just a curious boy. A quote from the People's article reads:

Quote

"We tried to handle things in house," he said, continuing, "It was a very difficult time in our family's life." He did not elaborate further in his testimony. 

Josh, he insisted, "had crossed some line right at that age of curiosity, at 14, your hormones are kicking in."

 

[Antimony]

It seems to me, that if Bobye says she's not a spiritual leader, she's not, based on the loose rules of their home church system. The case might be different if Bobye was claiming she was a spiritual leader, but she's not claiming that and it's weird for Jim Bob to insist that she actually is when she says she isn't. Like, can you imagine if somebody in court insisted that you were a therapist because you'd talk about a friend's problems with them over a beer? It's bananas.