(CW: Possible CSA) Josh & Anna 37: Saving the Cocktail Dresses for Court

[Mama Mia]

2 hours ago, BensAllergies said:

I can see that. It's clear that fundies have their normal meters broken in regards to incest and assaults against children. However, I don't think the Holts deserve praise for ending the courtship on March 30, 2003 when they changed their minds by 2005 (see my bolding below). And they may have saved their daughter in the end, but I doubt that Anna knew the level of detail that the Holts knew. Others are right - so many people failed in taking the proper action back in the early 2000s, and while I believe a testimony on stand is the right step, it does little to absolve responsibility. JB is even more reprehensible and I hope his campaign suffers for it.

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Bobye said she and her family were staying at their home in Little Rock in the early months of 2005 when they invited Josh to come and stay with them. Her husband was working in the legislative session at the time. Bobye said she still held out hope that Josh and her daughter could reconnect and get married someday, and she wanted Josh to be able to confide in them so they could help get him back on the right path.

 

That part was so weird! I get that she was very fond of Josh as a child. I get that they only knew the very sanitized version of what Josh did, that he hadn’t admitted to a lot of the worst of it at that time. That she would hope that he figured things out and it was no longer an issue and wanted to be a support for him - all understandable. BUT - why on earth would you draw him back in 2 years later to hopefully court and marry your daughter? After a brief young teen courtship? WTF are you thinking? So many other guys out there, and for some reason the one who at MINIMUM had repeatedly demonstrated serious inappropriate sexual impulse control problems - that’s the one you think is a good bet?? 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Mama Mia

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Natalie22 said:

Yup, it was Jill.  Josh mentioned it in her wedding special.  Jana then clarified that Jill just cared about people being right with God or something.  I think at the time everyone thought it was if they put a toe out of line.  Now with this context, it's insane to think he would ever refer to her publicly as a tattletale.

I think he may have been referring to other instances where Jill “tattled” as well, since his statement implied she “tattled” a lot.  What strikes me is that to Josh the incident when she reported him trying to touch her is on the same level as her reporting him for eating the last piece of pie or not doing his chores.  She “snitched.”

BTW - Wasn’t it Jill who remembered hiding in the bathroom (or somewhere) to eat a treat because there wasn’t enough to go around and she didn’t want to share?  The older girls really had a hard life.

[So-Virgin-It-Hurts]

2 hours ago, livinginthelight said:

This is not true in all states. I am not sure about the Arkansas law. In some states, as recently as in statutes enacted in 2019, mandated reporters are only required to report abuse which they learn about in an official capacity. For example, below is the law in New York. Here is the link to the page: https://law.justia.com/codes/new-york/2019/sos/article-6/title-6/413/

but to summarize, the phrase "official capacity" is repeated several times throughout the document.

2019 New York Laws
SOS - Social Services

§ 413. Persons and officials required to report cases of suspected child abuse or maltreatment. 1. (a) The following persons and officials are required to report or cause a report to be made in accordance with this title when they have reasonable cause to suspect that a child coming before them in their professional or official capacity is an abused or maltreated child, or when they have reasonable cause to suspect that a child is an abused or maltreated child where the parent, guardian, custodian or other person legally responsible for such child comes before them in their professional or official capacity and states from personal knowledge facts, conditions or circumstances which, if correct, would render the child an abused or maltreated child: (goes on to give very long list of mandated reporters) 

Edited to add: I just found what I think is the current Arkansas code. @Bassett Ladyis correct for Arkansas, in that a mandated reporter must report ANY abuse they learn of, whether in an official or unofficial capacity. https://law.justia.com/codes/arkansas/2019/title-12/subtitle-2/chapter-18/subchapter-4/section-12-18-402/

So it is different from state to state.

State law is the law and represents the minimum standard of behavior. Ethically, it should be reported. 

[Mama Mia]

49 minutes ago, onekidanddone said:

I thought women in the cult didn’t vote so how did she get onto the jury roles

They definitely vote. They go out an campaign and then post their I voted stickers. I don’t know about Arkansas, but you don’t have to be registered to vote to be called for Jury Duty in my state. They go off the DMV records.

[Alisamer]

The women most definitely vote. As do their kidults once they are 18. 

Think about that. About how many 18+ year olds Jim Bob had at home at some points. All of them, plus Michelle, voting how he told them to. I'd expect Josh and Anna, and some of the other married kids, also still vote how they're told. Normal people get one vote each. Jim Bob gets several, as do the other "patriarchs" of these big fundie families. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I believe prisoners should be able to vote. But I’m not sorry that Josh won’t get to vote during the time he’s locked up. 

[Satan'sFortress]

If Jill testifies, I hope it is 100% of her own volition.  She is hella courageous. 

At the time of Josh Duggar's molestation crimes, Joy was basically Jill's own baby, and the first of her buddy team. She must have felt bad being molested by Josh Duggar, but 1,000 worse that he molested " her" baby. 

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, theotherelise said:

It sounds like Josh confessing to the Holts had far more to do with the fact that they are the parents of the girl he was betrothed to, not that they were church leaders. Jim Bob said they needed to share something that was "relationship ending" and the only relationship that ended was Josh and the Holt girl (whose name I am specifically not writing fyi). The parents remained friends. 

I didn’t read it that way.  I read it as Jim Bob turned to the Holts as friends because he was so appalled at what Josh had done that he wanted help dealing with Josh.  He realized this would end the “pre-courtship” with the Holt girl, but he needed his friends’ input.

My take is JB turned to the Holts because he trusted them to be sympathetic to Josh and supportive towards himself.  He may have hoped that even if the relationship between the kids was broken at this point the Holts would reconsider after Josh had been “straightened out.”  It appears that the Holts considered the resumption of the courtship a possibility also.

While I can’t imagine facilitating a courtship between my daughter and a guy who had molested his own sisters, I think it is possible the Holts truly loved Josh and wanted to believe it had just been a brief aberration (Satan tempts the Godly), a teenage mistake that was caught in time and corrected.  The Holts may have brought him into their house in part to get to know him better and see if he had worked through his problems enough that they could encourage/allow a courtship with their daughter again.

If they kept an eye on Josh and made sure he had no unsupervised contact with their daughters—which they probably would do anyway because of the “chaperoning” thing in their culture—they may not have seen a risk even if Josh wasn’t totally reformed.   In any case, what Josh’s visit showed was that he had done worse things than they’d known, and then apparently he did something else that caused them to send him home. (We are guessing this was watching porn and connected to the “sin in the camp.”)

Back to Jim Bob, I am guessing he is furious at what he must see as a betrayal by the Holts.

[Sops2]

My mind is boggling at the thought of Jim and Bobbye Holt having a late night discussion with Jim Bob and Michelle in their bedroom about the problem.

And Jim Holt fell asleep.

[fundiewatch]

I think when Jim fell asleep it was just with Bobye and Josh, in Little Rock. The four parents + Josh in the Duggar bedroom was when they were in a tiny rental right? How awkward. Just painful for the other kids. 

[Letgo]

2 hours ago, Natalie22 said:

Yup, it was Jill.  Josh mentioned it in her wedding special.  Jana then clarified that Jill just cared about people being right with God or something.  I think at the time everyone thought it was if they put a toe out of line.  Now with this context, it's insane to think he would ever refer to her publicly as a tattletale.

I read somewhere that it was Jinger who woke up, hit Josh, and told her parents. I can't remember where it was that I read that. Jill would definitely tell though. It sounds like Jill. JB and Michelle must be just astounded that of all their children it was Jill who has fallen out with them. I'd have voted her least likely to ever leave the cult/family.

[Snowless]

7 hours ago, formergothardite said:

The Duggar daughters grew up in a nightmare. They were sexually abused, not allowed to get help, had it beat into their head that they must forgive him and then watched their parents hold their abuser up as a golden child. It would take years of therapy to begin to getting a grasp on what was done to them. 

My heart is broken for them. It just tragic what JB and Michelle did to their kids. Also Bobby should have reported it immediately to the authorities. Every adult in the situation failed in protecting these girls.

You’re so on the mark here.  And not just sexual abuse, but religious abuse as well (which can be just as cruel as physical or sexual abuse).  And their religious beliefs enabled the sexual abuse, placed the blame on the victims, and basically turned a blind eye to the abuser.

[Smee]

I still hold out hope that Jill is just the first of many (to break away from JB and J’Chelle that is).

 

Fundie names are so confusing. As if there weren’t enough Duggar-adjacent Laurens, we now have Jim Bob’s friends Jim and Bob (ye).

[Jinderella]

2 hours ago, Antimony said:

And Jim Bob now off the witness list.

I feel so sorry for Jill, the position her abuse enabling liar Jim Bob placed her in is beyond horrible. She may again need to tell the whole world about her deepest trauma, again this is forced upon her, and she knows that by doing so she she will probably alienate her family even more, but not doing so goes against her believes. And her father, who could have pevented at least some of the abuse and all of this new trauma throws her under the bus while protecting the rapist of her sister-child. 

I feel so very sorry for Jill, it actually hurts my stomic.

[Snowless]

3 hours ago, RosyDaisy said:

No.  According to the podcast "I Pray You Put This Journal Away", he implies that Josh was caught looking at porn while with the Holts.  It was the incident that led to Josh's head being shaved.  He was also punished by being made to dig out a pond on someone's property.  The molestations occured before this.

I recommend everyone listen to that podcast.  Justin was friends with Josh and JD.  He gives a lot of insight on Josh.

Thanks for recommending that one.  I’ve added it to my podcasts library and I’ll try to start listening this evening.  (I don’t have just Duggar-related stuff in my feed; I’ve also been listening to Leah Remini and Mike Rinder’s Fair Game and iHeart Radio’s Was I in a Cult? lately.  Would definitely recommend both.)

[Antimony]

6 minutes ago, Jinderella said:

I feel so sorry for Jill, the position her abuse enabling liar Jim Bob placed her in is beyond horrible. She may again need to tell the whole world about her deepest trauma, again this is forced upon her, and she knows that by doing so she she will probably alienate her family even more, but not doing so goes against her believes. And her father, who could have pevented at least some of the abuse and all of this new trauma throws her under the bus while protecting the rapist of her sister-child. 

I feel so very sorry for Jill, it actually hurts my stomic.

We can't know but Amy has been posting some pretty clear "Justice will be served" stuff on her instagram and I think Jill and Amy are close. In the theatre of my mind, she called up the government herself and said, "Hello, government, have I got a testimony for you..."

I still think it would look really bad to have her testify against her will, and probably wouldn't be worth it to the prosecution, so it's possible she was very agreeable to it. I mean, I hope. She wouldn't be the first person on Earth to opt-in to such a testimony. 

Edit: It was unclear -- I mention Amy's story because I suspect she could be hyping up Jill and playing Right Hand Man in terms of support.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Antimony

[Tatar-tot]

22 hours ago, FiveAcres said:

Are clergy mandated reporters in Arkansas?

They have a weird out in certain circumstances.  See attached under Arkansas:

https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubPDFs/manda.pdf

[Jinderella]

6 minutes ago, Antimony said:

 

I still think it would look really bad to have her testify against her will, and probably wouldn't be worth it to the prosecution, so it's possible she was very agreeable to it. I mean, I hope. She wouldn't be the first person on Earth to opt-in to such a testimony. 

 

I agree, I think she did let the prosecution know she would be available if necessary, but giving testimony about abuse against your familie will always be very very very painfull. I don’t even want to think about any cross-examination. And it was not necessary, Jim Bob could have been honest and then there would not have been a need to put Jill trough it. And I really hate him for that.

[Natalie22]

1 minute ago, Tatar-tot said:

They have a weird out in certain circumstances.  See attached under Arkansas:

https://www.childwelfare.gov/pubPDFs/manda.pdf

I think this is a common exception.  It's what let the catholic church cover up a lot of their abuse in the past.  I think in general most faith organizations actually lobby for these exceptions, so I think it's quite common since many of these religious groups are throughout the entire country and not a specific local area.

[SassyPants]

Abused by their brother and simultaneously bathed in the purity culture where front hugging a fiancé is “giving away a piece of your heart.” How did the girls reconcile Josh’s abuse in this environment? What a mind screw-

 

[Kjaerringa]

I'll admit to not following Anna's insta very intently, but....is today actually the first day the entire world saw her bare knees? I shouldn't have been dumbfounded, but I really was. Is the strategy to portray her as a godly Duggar wife backfiring, so they are styling her as more...well, slightly more...sophisticated and stylish, less girly, more mature, yet with an undertone of MILF... implying why would JoshyBoy have looked elsewhere, because THIS is his taste? I mean, obviously, what she wears has nothing to do with pedophilia or his crimes in actual fact, but there is serious research done on the way court hair and fashion choices of all concerned with the case could affect the jury. 

Thoughts? Or am I reaching?

[libgirl2]

5 minutes ago, Kjaerringa said:

I'll admit to not following Anna's insta very intently, but....is today actually the first day the entire world saw her bare knees? I shouldn't have been dumbfounded, but I really was. Is the strategy to portray her as a godly Duggar wife backfiring, so they are styling her as more...well, slightly more...sophisticated and stylish, less girly, more mature, yet with an undertone of MILF... implying why would JoshyBoy have looked elsewhere, because THIS is his taste? I mean, obviously, what she wears has nothing to do with pedophilia or his crimes in actual fact, but there is serious research done on the way court hair and fashion choices of all concerned with the case could affect the jury. 

Thoughts? Or am I reaching?

I think that is a really valid point. Show her as being somewhat sexy and sophisticated looking.... why would he look at CSA? 

[Howl]

11 minutes ago, Kjaerringa said:

I mean, obviously, what she wears has nothing to do with pedophilia or his crimes in actual fact, but there is serious research done on the way court hair and fashion choices of all concerned with the case could affect the jury. 

This is true and those amenable to instructions from Josh's attorneys  will be coached on those aspects. The jury is watching and impression management of Josh-adjacent folks is a huge deal. 

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Letgo said:

I read somewhere that it was Jinger who woke up, hit Josh, and told her parents. I can't remember where it was that I read that. Jill would definitely tell though. It sounds like Jill. JB and Michelle must be just astounded that of all their children it was Jill who has fallen out with them. I'd have voted her least likely to ever leave the cult/family.

I don’t think it was Jinger.  In the police report the unidentified child who was probably Jinger seems to have been the worst traumatized of the girls who were interviewed and her main story is about something that happened in the daytime.

Bobbye’s report states that Josh admitted that he had been touching sisters while they slept from the time he was 12, and Jinger appears to have been one of the sisters he touched, but the one who woke up was one of the older ones, and if I remember correctly, in the Meghan Kelly interview Jessa said she never woke and had to be told afterwards.  So that leaves Jill.

[JermajestyDuggar]

Jill was the oldest of all the girls molested by him. I’m betting because of that, she would go tell. Then after she told, he molested the youngest. It’s like he knew the older ones were wise enough to know to tell and the youngest might not tell because she doesn’t understand. His behavior was calculated in my opinion. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by JermajestyDuggar