(CW: Possible CSA) Josh & Anna 37: Saving the Cocktail Dresses for Court

[Sister Mozz]

25 minutes ago, BensAllergies said:

This article offers a slightly different take. It has me seriously questioning the Holts’ judgment when they invited him into their home. However it does sound like Bobye is willing to be candid. If they are both allowed to testify then it will be clear which witness is credible to the jurors. Here’s one notable quote:

https://www.nwahomepage.com/northwest-arkansas-news/josh-duggar-trial-judge-to-rule-tuesday-on-allowing-testimony-about-duggars-prior-allegations/amp/
 

  Reveal hidden contents

At several points, Jim Bob appeared to get flustered with the prosecution’s questioning. There were issues where he would extrapolate further on his answers beyond the questions the prosecution asked. Judge Brooks took a moment to pause the questioning when it got to a more heated moment. 

The judge addressed Jim Bob saying this is a “difficult and unfair situation” that he’s in and that he needs to just answer the questions being asked.

 

It sounds like perhaps there was the original 2003 conversation and then Jim and Bobye didn't know of any other molestation until 2005. It's still not smart parenting to ask Josh to live with them, but if it had been two years and they hadn't heard anything, plus they believed Jim Bob had dealt with it... I can see some fundie logic, even if I don't agree with it.

I think Josh must have a similar personality to James Ference. Somehow many people want to believe them and trust them, but they are the scum of the earth. Most of us don't see the appeal, but there has to be something for these guys to have reached this point in their lives.

[Dandruff]

2 hours ago, Giraffe said:

I'm glad at least Bobye has the integrity to tell the truth. Here's to JB's "forgetfulness" backfiring on him in both the election and his eldest's trial!

And anytime he wants money to lecture about conservative family values.

Wonder how good JB's memory would have been if the person who molested his daughters hadn't been his son.

[EmCatlyn]

As I read the reports of Bobye Holt’s testimony, I am struck by how the Duggars downplayed the extent of what Josh had been doing even when they were upset enough that they brought the Holts in on the matter.  They must have known that Jane Doe 4 didn’t just get “touched over clothing.” (The police report makes it clear the kid jumped up and there were other siblings in the room, one of whom called the parents.) 

They must have known that Josh had been touching his sisters over a period of time.  Their implication that it only happened a couple of times and he immediately confessed is patently false.

We know that one sister caught him and told the parents.  I was struck that Bobye remembered that he used the word “snitched.”  This is not a word you use when you don’t blame the victim for reporting what you did.  I suspect it bothered Bobye even in 2005, when she was trying to think the best of Josh, and that is why she remembered.

However, the JB and Michelle version is that Josh freely confessed before anyone caught him.  Yeah, right. He confessed only when he knew he was going to get reported or had already been reported.

That being said, he does seem to have confessed more than he needed to when he talked to the Holts in 2005.  Was he looking for help or was he just relishing the attention that he got?  

 

[Natalie22]

3 hours ago, SPHASH said:

After reading about Boob's "testimony" the prosecution really needs to get Jill on the stand.

See this is what I wonder about.  It's obviously really bad for the prosecution to force a victim to testify.  But Jim Bob's testimony might have the opposite impact he was hoping for.  The other victims in his family might not see anything wrong with what he did or just ignore their feelings, but he doesn't have that relationship with Jill anymore.  That, and she's not the 24 year old who had just left home for the first time like she was when it first came out.  It's hard to know how anyone would react.  I'm sure she will definitely be in pain dealing with Jim Bob's comments.  But his comments may also drive her to action and to offer to testify for the prosecution.  What could possibly be worse than having your sister who was a victim of your abuse on the opposite side of your legal case.  

Jill seems to be driven by a need to do good, although sometimes I don't like what she defines as 'good'.  She may feel like she needs to act now that Jim Bob has denied what really happened. 

[MomJeans]

Reading the testimony of Bobbye Holt, I am again so sorry that Josh's sisters had to grow up in that house.  They deserved a home where they were protected and cherished, with parents that would fight for them and protect them. 

I am relieved that justice may be served, but I acknowledge that this trial comes at a terrible price for his victims.

I always knew that Jim Bob and Michelle were terrible parents.  But now I realize that Jim Bob and Michelle don't deserve the titles of mom and dad.  They failed their daughters when they needed them most, and they are failing their daughters again.  The cover-up and gaslighting is as evil as the crime itself. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know everyone here already knows what evil hypocrites these people are, but on his 2002 campaign website, Jim Bob advocated that rape and incest should be capital crimes, while his son was actively molesting children. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Idlewild]

It may be nothing, probably is, but Ben has posted Thanksgiving photos and the first one is him and Jessa kissing and she is clearly wearing trousers. Now I know we have spotted her wearing them before but in posed family pictures they usually try to hide it. I may be reading too much into it but is this their way of saying they won’t and don’t uphold the family brand any more? 
 

Jed was out campaigning with JB the other night- he’s probably arrogant enough to think he still stands a chance at a later election. It will be interesting to see if any of the daughters endorse JB’s campaign.

[EmCatlyn]

I don’t think the prosecution will call any of the victims for the trial.  I think they might have called one of the sisters who went on TV to talk about being molested, but only to determine whether mention of the abuse should be allowed.  As I understand it, the only reason to mention the abuse would be to argue against the defense’s claim that someone else downloaded the csa porn.  It increases the probability that he did it when he had a history of inappropriate behavior toward minor females.

However, the focus in this trial has to be on the CSA porn.  If they start making a big deal about a prior crime, Josh could appeal a conviction more easily.

For this reason, I would not be surprised if the judge rules against bringing up the abuse unless the defense tries to pretend that Josh would be incapable of seeing children in an erotic context.  He has a.ready ruled the same about the “porn addiction” confession.

[Smee]

I am unsurprised by JB’s approach. Disgusted at the pathetic excuse for a father he was and continues to be, but not surprised that he went the “I don’t recall” route. He’s a smug asshole who like most narcissists cannot possibly entertain the notion that he might have been wrong.

Bobye’s testimony is so sad. I too was struck by the mention of “snitched” and reminded of how Jill? Or Jessa? One of the victims, anyway - was said to be the family tattletale. I too think it is mind blowingly naive for the Holts to take Josh into their home with minor children after knowing how long he’d been molesting children. But I wish Pa Keller had felt the same about it being a relationship dealbreaker. 

All this testimony refers to “Jane Does 1, 2 3 and 4” which we know are the Duggar sisters, but they also brought up the police report and doesn’t that mention victim #5 (outside the Duggar household)? I appreciate there are many reasons they wouldn’t want to call the victims themselves, but if the prosecution argument is “this establishes a pattern of behaviour” and the police report is part of their evidence, then why leave off all mention of the unnamed victim? 

I REALLY wonder what is being said in the Dillard household these days. Thank God Jill has a proper qualified therapist she’s not afraid to use. I only hope some of the other young women can find similar support.

[BlackberryGirl]

Oops

 

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by BlackberryGirl
Wrong text window

[formergothardite]

The Duggar daughters grew up in a nightmare. They were sexually abused, not allowed to get help, had it beat into their head that they must forgive him and then watched their parents hold their abuser up as a golden child. It would take years of therapy to begin to getting a grasp on what was done to them. 

My heart is broken for them. It just tragic what JB and Michelle did to their kids. Also Bobby should have reported it immediately to the authorities. Every adult in the situation failed in protecting these girls.

[Bethy]

8 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Bobye testified that Josh left their home after an incident occurred (not inappropriate touching). What other skeletons are still rattling around in his closet?

The thing is, it could literally be anything - doesn't have to be molestation or even porn. He could've started secretly seeing some other same-age girl and kissed her. He could've stolen money from the Hoyts. Heck, as legalistic as these groups are, it could've been as simple as him surreptitiously listening to rock music. But because of the things that we know that DID happen, when Bobye mentions "an incident" and doesn't do much to clarify, our minds go to the very worst places.

[seraaa]

I cannot believe that Jim Bob said he "didn't recall" events properly?

You don't recall?!?? You sent your son away to camp and made your daughters do a TV interview about it!

I hope the girls have access to a good support system, because my God.

[quiversR4hunting]

@Anne Of Gray Gables posted the people link. For all those that can't get to the People article here it is (no pictures)

Spoiler

Quote

Josh Duggar Admitted He First Molested Girls at Age 12, Family Friend Says in Emotional Testimony

Monday's three-hour hearing turned on what may be a key matter: whether or not the judge should admit evidence that Josh Duggar previously committed child molestation

By Adam CarlsonNovember 29, 2021 08:35 PM

It was March 30, 2003, and Josh Duggar — not for the first time — had something to confess.

This was just a few weeks past his 15th birthday and a few years before his family found reality TV fame. Behind closed doors, however, he had fondled four younger girls since the age of 12.

That startling admission — which he first made in 2002 and again in a 2003 meeting with parents Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar and two of their best friends, Jim and Bobye Holt, and then again in a 2005 conversation with the Holts — was publicly detailed for the first time on Monday, in emotional testimony at a hearing ahead of Josh's trial on federal charges he received and possessed child pornography two years ago. 

Josh, 33, has pleaded not guilty and vowed to "fight back in the courtroom."

In court papers, Josh's attorneys have suggested several other people also had access to the computer at his work where the material was found but that police didn't sufficiently investigate.

Monday's three-hour hearing, in court in Arkansas, turned on what may be a key matter at his trial later this week: whether or not the judge should admit evidence that Josh previously committed child molestation. While his defense maintains that Monday's testimony about his actions two decades ago was not definitive, the only major factual dispute at the hearing was about the extent of his conduct and not whether any molestation occurred.

Josh's illicit history first burst into public view in 2015 when the tabloid In Touch published a 2006 police report (later confirmed by PEOPLE) about an investigation into whether Josh had molested five underage girls, including a few of his sisters. 

Josh acknowledged to PEOPLE in a statement at the time that "as a young teenager, I acted inexcusably for which I am extremely sorry and deeply regret. I hurt others, including my family and close friends …. I would do anything to go back to those teen years and take different actions. I sought forgiveness from those I had wronged and asked Christ to forgive me and come into my life."

But none of that, his defense insists, should be relevant today.

"Let's have a trial about what actually happened in May of 2019," Justin Gelfand urged the judge, contending that the prosecution had "a lot of mountains" to climb in proving the admissibility of Josh's past conduct to help them convict.

Gelfand conceded that the testimony on Monday largely agreed on what Josh did to the minor girls (referred to as Jane Does one through four) when he was a teenager. But Gelfand argued that the prosecution was so far relying only on a sole witness to prove Josh had digitally penetrated one of the girls' genitals — the most serious conduct described in court so far.

And while prosecutors pressed the two witnesses, including Josh's dad Jim Bob Duggar, over what Josh had admitted to them all those years ago, the defense argued that Josh's statements were made in the context of "spiritual counseling" with Bobye and Jim Holt, and so should be shielded by the religious privilege between clergy and parishioners.

Gelfand said religious liberty existed to protect certain disclosures in certain contexts — and "this is the epitome of those conversations." 

The matter remains pending before Judge Timothy L. Brooks, who questioned Gelfand about where such a privilege would begin and end, including in the context of mandatory reporting laws about child abuse.

Brooks requested further briefings from both prosecutors and the defense by Tuesday, amid jury selection, in hopes of a ruling before the trial is underway.

Prosecutors, for their part, called the testimony damning: "as close to a formal admission of guilt in a courtroom setting as you can get," William Clayman told the judge.

Here is how the day unfolded. (Josh's wife, Anna Duggar, watched from the front row.)

The Duggars' 'Best Friend' Speaks

First to testify for the prosecution was Bobye Holt, whose husband, Jim, has known Jim Bob since the two were in the seventh grade. Bobye said their families were close for decades, attending Bible Grace Fellowship together for nearly 10 years and going on ski trips. "We loved them," she said, adding, "We loved Josh." He called her "aunt Bobye," she said.

The Holts' oldest daughter dated Josh for several months, in 2002 and 2003, though their relationship was chaperoned and more emotional than physical, in keeping with the families' custom. They all hoped, one day, the two might marry.

But Josh and the Holts' daughter instead stopped seeing each other on March 30, 2003, Bobye said: She remembered the exact day because that's when she and Jim went to the Duggars' home, after a call from Jim Bob, 56, to Jim, to learn "what Josh had done."

The Holts and the Duggars — Jim Bob, Michelle and Josh — gathered in the Duggar parents' bedroom for an hours-long session, Bobye said on the stand. Jim Bob paced around the floor and sometimes the group prayed.

As Bobye recalled Josh telling her he had touched the four girls, she choked up.

One specific incident had led to the meeting that March, Bobye said. Something happened earlier that day. "[Josh] explained that Jane Doe four was sitting on his lap during Bible time and he touched her inappropriately," she said. "He said it happened that day. On that date, he told us that he touched her vaginal area," she continued. Only later did she learn, Bobye said, that Josh touched the girl under her clothes.

Josh also admitted to touching three other girls, Bobye said, each of them on their breasts and genitals. 

In one instance, Bobye testified, he inappropriately touched one of the girls in February 2002 and "she went and told his parents what he had done and he confessed." Bobye added that each of the girls was at least three years younger than Josh.

As a pattern of behavior, she said, "From when he told me … it started at [age] 12 until March 30, 2003."

Bobye grew more distraught later in her testimony, describing how in early 2005, between January and April, Josh had come to live with the Holts in Little Rock. Jim, a state senator as well as an ordained minister, chaplain and one of their church's elders, was regularly counseling Josh. The Holts had offered to help Josh unburden himself of any "temptations he wanted to confess." 

And so in one evening conversation with Jim and Bobye, that is what Josh did, according to Bobye who testified that Josh shared more details about how he touched Jane Doe four in 2003. "When she was sitting on his lap he put his hand under her pantaloons and under her panties," said Bobye, who was crying and had to pause to gather herself, apologizing to the court.

Josh touched the girl outside and then inside her genitals, said Bobye, whose voice began to hitch.

In yet another incident, Bobye said, Josh "said that he went to [one of the girls] as she was sleeping and got up under her blanket to start touching her and she woke up and hit him." Then, the girl told his parents.

"He told me she snitched on him," Bobye recalled.

"I went to go tell Jim Bob and Michelle but they said they didn't want to hear it," Bobye said, later adding, "People began to be aware. … Something else happened in Little Rock that made Josh leave our home." (She clarified that it was unrelated to inappropriate touching.)

Under cross-examination, Bobye said she had kept no records of what she said Josh told her but pushed back when the defense focused on her failure to remember what word Josh used for genitals. "I know what he told me," she said.

Like Josh did previously, Bobye said during her testimony, "I'm confessing now."

Jim Bob Takes the Stand

Weeks after prosecutors told the judge it had been difficult to serve Josh's father with a subpoena, the Duggar patriarch took the stand on Monday after Bobye Holt. 

Early in his testimony, Jim Bob quickly took issue with the prosecution bringing up In Touch obtaining the 2006 police report. "This was something for a young man to come forward," he said, insisting it was a "juvenile record" and a "sealed case." (Local authorities have said they were obliged to release the redacted police report after In Touch made a freedom of information request.)

Unlike Bobye, Jim Bob avoided giving almost any specifics of what Josh had told him of the past molestation beyond describing it as "inappropriate touching" of girls' breasts. Jim Bob repeatedly said "I don't remember": "It's been like 18, 19 years ago. … a long time ago." 

Jim Bob said that around 2002, Josh did come to him and Michelle about inappropriate touching of a minor. "We were shocked this had happened," Jim Bob said, "but we were thankful he came on his own and told us."

"He had told me that he had touched some of the girls when they were sleeping on their breasts … they didn't wake up," said Jim Bob, who clarified that he didn't remember Josh's wording. But, the Duggar patriarch said, he and his wife Michelle took action in their home after that and believed Josh had behaved inappropriately.

He also confirmed in his testimony that problems continued: "There was, yes, an incident that he told us about … after the first incident."

In 2003, Jim Bob said, an incident made them send Josh from their home.

"We tried to handle things in house," he said, continuing, "It was a very difficult time in our family's life." He did not elaborate further in his testimony. 

Josh, he insisted, "had crossed some line right at that age of curiosity, at 14, your hormones are kicking in."

But they had taken steps to address the issues, Jim Bob said: "We did even take Josh to the Arkansas State Police on the recommendation of Jim Holt. … Josh confessed everything to Arkansas State Police."

The police report from that period shows that the investigation actually began another way, after an anonymous tip to Oprah Winfrey's show ahead of a scheduled Duggar appearance. The report shows that Josh also spent three months, from March to May 2003, in a controversial treatment program and, in 2004, got a "stern" lecture from a state trooper, whom Jim Bob knew. (Charges from the 2006 investigation were never brought as the statute of limitations had expired.)

On the stand, however, Jim Bob said he couldn't recall many of the details. And when prosecutor Carly Marshall brought him the police report — apparently still watermarked with In Touch's logo — he complained about the tabloid connection. 

"I'm not gonna allow it. Are you gonna allow for that?" Jim Bob asked the judge with his hands raised as the judge reminded him, "If there is [an] objection to be made, someone will make it but it won't be you."

Still, Jim Bob said, "For you guys to use a tabloid to bring it back up is very unprofessional."

The judge offered some sympathy: "Mr. Duggar, I recognize this is perhaps a very unfair position that you're placed in and I appreciate that."

But the judge told him, "This is not a debate."

As Jim Bob's testimony wound down, he addressed what seemed to be a subtext of the argument over priestly protection: that because Bobye Holt said women weren't elders in their church and so wasn't an elder, her presence undercut claims of privilege.

"I'm not a male chauvinist," Jim Bob said. "My wife is wiser than I am."

Jury selection in Josh's trial begins Tuesday. He is freed on bail, with restrictions.

 

 

 

[Peaches-n-Beans]

"I don't recall"

THat is so blatantly a lie. You do not forget what your son did to your daughters. However he clearly doesn't care.

Does anyone know if he can face any charges or fines for this given he obviously does recall and has given a TV interview about it in the past? 

[quiversR4hunting]

15 hours ago, quiversR4hunting said:

Those quotes show how much a jab thinks he is above the law.

I missed the edit time period by a lot. jab is supposed to be JB. I think we should start saying Jim Bob Duggar so it comes up on google and people realize that Jim Bob Duggar's testimony against his son was to "not remember" thus not protecting his daughters and showing that Bobye remembers a lot and has very damning testimony to what type of person Josh Duggar is and that Anna Duggar (by staying with him) is enabling his behavior Josh's appearance of a good christian guy. 

Edited November 30, 2021 by quiversR4hunting
better description of what Anna is enabling.

[Jinderella]

9 minutes ago, quiversR4hunting said:

 I think we should start saying Jim Bob Duggar so it comes up on google and people realize that Jim Bob Duggar's testimony against his son was to "not remember" thus not protecting his daughters and showing that Bobye remembers a lot and has very damning testimony to what type of person Josh Duggar is and that Anna Duggar (by staying with him) is enabling his behavior Josh's appearance of a good christian guy. 

I think we should start saying abuse enabler Jim Bob Duggar as often as possible. 
 

The abuse of his daughters lasted three years and when Bobye came to him with details about the confessions of the Pest he didn’t want to hear about it. 
 

Whenever someone searches his name into google, it should be totally clear that Jim Bob Duggar enabled the abuse of his daughters. 
 

I’m so mad…

[punkiepie]

Just saw Anna and Josh walking into the courthouse this morning- and she is clinging to him with both hands, like the jaws of life couldn’t pry her off. Reminds me of their early courtship/engagement and all the weird hand sex.  Video is on Garrett Fergeson’s Twitter. 

[quiversR4hunting]

Here is a link and a screenshot of the video as Josh comes around the corner of the building. 

[snickerz]

It's a beautiful day to go to prison! 

[Antimony]

19 minutes ago, quiversR4hunting said:

Here is a link and a screenshot of the video as Josh comes around the corner of the building. 

I know this is like the smallest issue right now imaginable, but I hate this double-hand-holding thing Anna is doing here. It's so clingy and strange and just doesn't make sense -- it's clearly making it harder for her to walk. It's reminiscent of their hand-sex courting days. 

[Hane]

She’s clinging to him, and he’s strolling along as if she doesn’t even exist.

[Idlewild]

I can’t see her footwear today but yesterday she had pretty high shoes - I cling on to anything trying to walk in high shoes, though I’d probably draw the line at Josh Duggar. 

[ILoveJellybeans]

Its awful how if you compare JB's testimony to Bobye's, you'd not think he was the one who is the parent of the girls he molested, and she is just a family friend and the parent of a girl Josh courted for a few months as a teenager. How can he not remember? He's obviously lying, you dont forget such an awful thing. He's clearly lying, which is so awful for his poor daughters. He's protecting his son, who molested his younger sisters and one family friend as a teenager and then turned into an adult who gets off to children being abused and raped, yet he wont protect his daughters who were the victims of his sexual abuse when they were children.

I wonder what this other incident was, that Bobye mentioned. As she's been cooperative and has told the truth so far, I believe her that it was not connected to him molesting anyone. Could be anything though, including a lot of things a normal teenage boy would do.

I question why Josh would be sent to the Holts after he was caught molesting his sisters. I dont know much about them, but wouldnt they also have minor children in the home? Would be better to have chosen a family like the Rebers are now, an older couple with only grown up children? 

I kind of guessed that the story that Josh only touched the girls a few times and then confessed to it immediately after wasnt entirely true. Ive always suspected that it happened more times than Josh confessed to and he only confessed when he thought he had been caught and lied about how often he did it. It seems more likely that it was a pattern of behaviour that happened frequently, including between the time he confessed to touching his sisters in their sleep and the incident when he touched one of them while she sat on his lap. This seems to be what Bobye is saying in her testimony.

As for whether Anna will leave Josh, at this point, Im not suprised she hasnt. Its a horrible thing, but she's probably still in denial about it. At the moment, she probably feels she's in the best place for herself to be as she processes it. She's got a house, she lives near family so has lots of people to help her out with the kids, especially as she has just given birth. We may think the religious beliefs she was raised in are oppressive and harmful, but she does not. Im going to imagine that CPS have been involved to speak to the children, and theyve not found any evidence that they have been harmed by Josh. Wouldnt expect them to have any further actions as Josh is now out of the house (however if he gets out when the younger kids are still minors, it could be an issue later on). Im sure there was mention that it would happen in a case like this and I think it would have been mentioned by now if there was evidence he had physically touched a child as an adult. Josh is out of the way for now, and hopefully will get a long jail sentence, but she's at least got a few years to think about things. I wouldnt expect her to act now, because leaving someone, especially in her culture and overcoming all this conditioning, possibly having to cut ties with people she's close to, is a lot to do. It takes a lot to leave, and its harder than people think.

She can play the godly wife, and not have to deal with him. I imagine if she does too much to piss off JB, she'd lose all of what she has, which wouldnt be good at such an unstable time in her life. She's got no job skills, has never worked a day in her life, and daycare for so many children under school age would be too expensive.  I hope once he's been sentenced, and she's had a few years of living without him, she realises that she's better off without him and moves on with her life, and starts making plans. I would be completely disgusted if he gets like 10 years, and she welcomes him back into the house and allows him around their youngest daughters as if nothing happened.  I hope she leaves him eventually.

[Four is Enough]

Jim Bob Duggar is a fucking lying liar who lies.

It's been ten years, here, and I can still remember every item about my child's molestation accusations, from the very first one until the end of therapy nearly four years later. How could anyone forget? Would I want to speak them in front of a courtroom full of people? no, but I remember.

[Alisamer]

8 minutes ago, Four is Enough said:

Jim Bob Duggar is a fucking lying liar who lies.

It's been ten years, here, and I can still remember every item about my child's molestation accusations, from the very first one until the end of therapy nearly four years later. How could anyone forget? Would I want to speak them in front of a courtroom full of people? no, but I remember.

Especially considering it was his own daughters who were being molested. I can't believe he really can't remember what he claims not to remember. Maybe they should have subpoena'd Michelle. I don't think much of her, but I'd bet she remembers what happened. How could she not? Her own daughters were assaulted by their brother!