(CW: Possible CSA) Josh & Anna 37: Saving the Cocktail Dresses for Court

[patsymae]

On 11/25/2021 at 11:06 AM, Mama Mia said:

From what we have seen, and know? They wouldn’t. Assuming they interviewed the kids, as I believe the court ordered, and assuming those interviews didn’t find anything sketchy —- she isn’t doing anything that rises to the level of CPS involvement no matter who she is. The kids aren’t neglected in any visible sense. They seem well-nourished and healthy. They aren’t living on a park bench or in a crowded car. Any physical punishment she does likely fits within the guidelines of their state (which allows kids to be hit with boards in public school - so seems pretty damn lenient in what is allowed ) The court has only required supervised contact with their father, not a total ban, and as far as we know that’s what has happened. They have aunts/uncles/grandparents in the vicinity if Anna needs to go somewhere, There’s zero surface reason they’d be required to have a CPS plan. 
I’ve worked with CPS as a social worker helping to design programs —- Anna and family would be soooooo far down the list, regardless of skin color or religion…..

Now once Pedo*dad is released, if there are any restrictions on his interactions with the kids, and she allows him to break them —- that’s a reason to step in. But I think she’s just one of those women who loves her man far more than her kids and will put him over them. And I know she’s been brainwashed etc etc —- but I don’t think she’d lose all the people in her life if she left him. I don’t think she’d lose approval of the community, I don’t think she’d even lose the support of (most) of his own family.

 She  has religion as an excuse to try to justify her actions, but I think — given her behavior since his arrest— she’d be acting exactly the same no matter who or what her wider community was.

And I definitely don’t get comparing her to the Turpins. She has a huge variety of resources and knowledge of the world and her own siblings have chosen different paths. 

 

 

 

I know of quite a few people who've been targeted by CPS for less. I guess it's regional, and/or it seems like offices and social workers have a wide latitude in what they want to do. But nobody's going to go after Anna so I guess it's a moot point.

[Mama Mia]

12 minutes ago, patsymae said:

I know of quite a few people who've been targeted by CPS for less. I guess it's regional, and/or it seems like offices and social workers have a wide latitude in what they want to do. But nobody's going to go after Anna so I guess it's a moot point.

Maybe you’re in a particularly housing secure, low-drug, low crime, low-poverty area? I just can’t imagine a county CPS having the resources to go to court over things like low-job skills, or depending on relatives, or having an asshole husband who the judge says the kids can have supervised visits with, or what the justification would be? 

[Cults-r-us]

6 hours ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

 

Yes, no way will he allow Anna to end up with anything.

Wrong! She will end up with 7 kids!

[BensAllergies]

Prison pen pals is an angle I hadn’t considered. I predict that Anna will stay faithful to Josh and will visit him wherever he is while he is incarcerated. I imagine that Michelle, concerned about Josh’s mental health, would approach Anna after conviction/sentencing and discuss with her strategies to help Josh remember what he has to look forward to when he is released. But what if Josh gladly accepts all the commissary comforts and visits but then files for divorce and moves in with a childless girlfriend as soon as he is out? He might feel that Anna would place a lot of expectations on him since he would have missed so many dates, holidays, and birthdays. The pressure to be a reformed husband and father after prison life might be too much for a man who would be at the prime age for a midlife crisis. He might be ready to shed his former family life completely and move to the Florida coast, buy a motorcycle, and be financially supported by his new girlfriend.

However, I do believe it’s probable that Josh would get at least a couple years of supervised release. I’m not sure what the federal restrictions are for that regarding residency.

[Queeen Victoria]

How would this scenario play out?  While in prison JB dies.  Which son wuld step into the role of patriarch?  There's not much Josh could do to prevent this.  How willing would the new patriarch be to support Josh after being released from prison?  

Enquiring minds want to know.

 

[SassyPants]

JB dies when Josh is in jail? Josh walks away. No way is he sticking around to be a husband to Anna and a headship to anyone! 

[BensAllergies]

There was an old clip that I re-watched recently when Josh repeated the family line about leaving it up to God, but then he added that he would be happy with a small family too. Maybe it’s bias and hindsight, but I get the sense when watching these old clips that Josh has been parroting the beliefs for a while out of comfort and convenience. He would not need to hide his true feelings as much while in prison, and if he found another financial source then he would jump at the first chance.

I think the next Duggar patriarch is a toss up between JD and Joe. Kendra and Abbie are both supportive wives, but since Abbie/JD are older and will have fewer kids then it might tip in their favor if they want it.

[Not that josh's mom]

12 minutes ago, BensAllergies said:

There was an old clip that I re-watched recently when Josh repeated the family line about leaving it up to God, but then he added that he would be happy with a small family too. Maybe it’s bias and hindsight, but I get the sense when watching these old clips that Josh has been parroting the beliefs for a while out of comfort and convenience. He would not need to hide his true feelings as much while in prison, and if he found another financial source then he would jump at the first chance.

I think the next Duggar patriarch is a toss up between JD and Joe. Kendra and Abbie are both supportive wives, but since Abbie/JD are older and will have fewer kids then it might tip in their favor if they want it.

Why would anyone really want that role? Possibly to control finances, but I wonder if they wouldn't just want to divide everything up and everyone go their own way. I think we are seeing some of them breaking away now. They don't have to toe the family line without the show and for some of them I think that's a relief.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

20 minutes ago, BensAllergies said:

I think the next Duggar patriarch is a toss up between JD and Joe. Kendra and Abbie are both supportive wives, but since Abbie/JD are older and will have fewer kids then it might tip in their favor if they want it.

I think the next Patriarch will be appointed and it will be Joe or Jed! Joe and Jed! are the golden boys. JD is nice, but he may not be fundie enough to take the role. Kendra is the true heir to Michelle. She and Joe are the only ones having kids fast enough (so far!) to be next Michelle and JB; (Anna and Josh were slow compared to his parents). Jed! seems to be a golden boy since he was the one tapped to be a politician. Katey seems happy for now. I doubt JB will die soon. I hope he and Michelle continue to live and watch their empire crumple.

Edited November 27, 2021 by Bluebirdbluebell

[SassyPants]

I think when JB passes and Michelle is older and possibly declining, no one will be the male leader. I’m not seeing any of them interested in maintaining JB and M’s BS. JD and Abbie, no. Joe, the plate licker? No, he doesn’t have the personality suited to lead. I see M moving to a smaller house, and visiting as she sees fit. If Jana remains single, which I’m strongly leaning towards, she’ll be the main overseer of her mom. 

[Anne Of Gray Gables]

6 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I think when JB passes and Michelle is older and possibly declining, no one will be the male leader. I’m not seeing any of them interested in maintaining JB and M’s BS. JD and Abbie, no. Joe, the plate licker? No, he doesn’t have the personality suited to lead. I see M moving to a smaller house, and visiting as she sees fit. If Jana remains single, which I’m strongly leaning towards, she’ll be the main overseer of her mom. 

Once the parents are gone, the story ends with all of the siblings suing each other until 19 lawyers all walk away fat, rich and happy. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Anne Of Gray Gables

[socalrules]

If Jim Bob dies, and Michelle is still alive, she will be in control of all the money and assets because she is his wife and that’s all her money too. What would be there to split up? Most people who die and leave a living spouse don’t have a Will that divides up all their assets, they leave their portion to their spouse. That’s if they even have a Will. Jim Bob can’t will away anything that is Michelle’s asset anyway. He can give away his portion if he wants but that’s it. I have always thought Michelle was in control of her marriage and family anyway. I highly doubt she will be under the control of anyone. I think a woman needing a headship is used for unmarried daughters to keep them in line but I doubt Jim Bob is expecting JD to control Michelle and be her master. 

[PinkGreyBrown]

For those who want to avoid estate taxes, trusts are the way to go. No idea how they're actually dealing with that, but there could be a Duggar family trust established to care for Michelle after JB passes & that protects whatever assets they have from the estate tax. Avoiding taxes is big with these types, I'm of the impression.

[Bluebirdbluebell]

20 minutes ago, socalrules said:

If Jim Bob dies, and Michelle is still alive, she will be in control of all the money and assets because she is his wife and that’s all her money too. What would be there to split up? Most people who die and leave a living spouse don’t have a Will that divides up all their assets, they leave their portion to their spouse. That’s if they even have a Will. Jim Bob can’t will away anything that is Michelle’s asset anyway. He can give away his portion if he wants but that’s it. I have always thought Michelle was in control of her marriage and family anyway. I highly doubt she will be under the control of anyone. I think a woman needing a headship is used for unmarried daughters to keep them in line but I doubt Jim Bob is expecting JD to control Michelle and be her master. 

I think JB handles the money, and Michelle makes some of the rules. I think she would be fine if someone else handles the money as she has what she needs including a little spending money. I hope neither JB or Michelle dies for a while, but it seems likely to me that he will outlive her.

[Dandruff]

4 minutes ago, PinkGreyBrown said:

For those who want to avoid estate taxes, trusts are the way to go. No idea how they're actually dealing with that, but there could be a Duggar family trust established to care for Michelle after JB passes & that protects whatever assets they have from the estate tax. Avoiding taxes is big with these types, I'm of the impression.

I believe there's at least one family Trust.  If JB passed, I'd guess whoever they have assisting now (e.g., lawyers, accountants) would continue to do so, and nothing would substantially change until Michelle passed.  I could see one or more of the kids being given some limited decision-making authority but I can't see JB willing to hand full authority to any one of them.

[onekidanddone]

52 minutes ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Once the parents are gone, the story ends with all of the siblings suing each other until 19 lawyers all walk away fat, rich and happy. 

Josh is probably wanting to take over for JB only I can’t see many of the siblings giving a rat’s ass

What would happen if there were any unmarried daughters if JB is gone? Who would take over as authority?

Edited November 27, 2021 by onekidanddone

[Giraffe]

I've finished reading the last few pages. I don't remember who said it but someone mentioned Anna won't believe the charges until/unless she sees the actual videos he downloaded. I disagree. She seems to believe he's innocent of the charges so if she sees the videos all it's going to do is prove (to her, not to others!) that he's innocent because she'll justify it as "there's no way my husband did this because it's too evil to believe that he did this, therefore this is all a set up to bring him down." She's stuck it out this far. I don't expect there's anything that will cause her to walk away. 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Giraffe
spelling

[onekidanddone]

3 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

I've finished reading the last few pages. I don't remember who said it but someone mentioned Anna won't believe the charges until/unless she sees the actual videos he downloaded. I disagree. She seems to believe he's innocent of the charges so if she sees the videos all it's going to do is prove (to her, not to others!) that he's innocent because she'll justify it as "there's no way my husband did this because it's too evil to believe that he did this, therefore this is all a set up to bring him down." She's stuck it out this far. I don't expect there's anything that will cause her to walk away. 

This is a cult which blames victims so I shudder to think what is going on in her mind 

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, BensAllergies said:

I think the next Duggar patriarch is a toss up between JD and Joe. Kendra and Abbie are both supportive wives, but since Abbie/JD are older and will have fewer kids then it might tip in their favor if they want it.

While it is possible that JB will die while Josh is in prison, it is equally possible that he will not.  He is not really that old.

As far as who will be the “patriarch” after him, I would guess that it depends on what we mean by patriarch.  If we mean who will pay the bills, I would guess that will depend on how the Duggar property is left.  If JB and Michelle create a trust and put one of the sons in charge, that son will be the one to be the “patriarch” because he will pay the bills.  If JB’s will divides the property more-or-less equally, then there will be no one person in the position to pay the bills, so there may be no “patriarch” in that sense.  (I don’t want to complicate things, but if Michelle outlives JB, she may end up controlling the bulk of the family’s resources unless there is a trust and someone else is designated as the primary trustee. Then the question may be who controls the property after she dies.)

If, on the other hand, by “patriarch” we mean the leader and/or the one others in the family turn to for advice and support,  that may be JD, who seems a fairly solid person his siblings trust.   My (very vague) impression of Joe makes me think that he won’t want to be the “one the others turn to,” but will, instead, want to be the patriarch to his own children and grandchildren.

Truly, I don’t see the family going on with a strong “patriarch” who calls the shots much longer than 5 or 10 years, Josh or no Josh.  Some (who are dependent on JB financially) may obey JB until he dies, but most are naturally moving on.

In any case, we all know it won’t be Josh who takes on the patriarch role. 😉

2 hours ago, Anne Of Gray Gables said:

Once the parents are gone, the story ends with all of the siblings suing each other until 19 lawyers all walk away fat, rich and happy. 

I tend to agree with this (maybe not 19, but at least 5 lawyers) unless JB has done a good job tying up the money or there just isn’t enough left to fight about. 😉

Edited November 27, 2021 by EmCatlyn
Clarify.

[Karma]

42 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

While it is possible that JB will die while Josh is in prison, it is equally possible that he will not.  He is not really that old.

Quite a few posters have commented on the possibility of JB or M dying while Josh is in prison.  Unless he’s convicted for a long time it’s highly unlikely.  They’re only in their mid 50’s, not 70’s or 80’s.  

Granted, you never know what is around the corner - I was diagnosed with an aggressive form of breast cancer last year, all good now, but it did make me realise that a long life isn’t guaranteed.  Even so, it’s highly unlikely JB will be handing over the reins any time soon.

[PinkGreyBrown]

Generally women outlive men but I'm very curious how longevity will play out with these mothers of a dozen or more children, that's really hard on the body. Sure, can't really die of osteoporosis directly but it can have significant impacts on ones quality of life & that can eat into longevity in subtle ways. Having a baby every year or two doesn't allow a person's body to fully recuperate between pregnancies. Michelle, for example, has quite the dowager's hump & back curvature. &, as mentioned, those two are only in their mid-50s. She's got the skeletal bearing of someone a lot older. Pure isb but very curious whether that level of child-bearing will impact that population's longevity outcomes.

[Melissa1977]

JB and Michelle are business partners. They are owners of several properties (there are public records). Michelle is not a woman without economical resources. JB has a milion faults, but I have the feeling that (1) he loves Michelle and (2) he sees her as a partner and as the family bee-queen. I can see some patriarchal families leaving the widow without properties and depending on a son, but frankly, I doubt Duggars are like that. Mom and dad have always been over the children and once the children were adults, keeping the financial power is the way to stay on charge. JB has always considered himself superior than his sons, he is not leaving them all the power while putting Michelle in "danger". Finally, Michelle may have a dumb voice and stupid smile, but she is not a fool at all, she worked for years to start their business after getting married when she was just 16, she worked to keep the show going, etc. I bet she knows how to keep her own money in case of being widow.

[TheWayTheWorldWorks]

My experience when my dad passed after nearly 57 years of marriage is that everything they owned is now solely my mom's. They do have a trust but even without one, I can't imagine how a long time spouse wouldn't naturally be owner of all assets. I suppose, JB could have assets solely in his name that he could specify in a will to someone but I don't see that happening. Also, to be clear, I happily let the sis and bro that are co-executors of their shared will  help her deal with the trust. I help mom pay her bills, etc as she hasn't worked outside of home since '68 and computers are not her thing.

Edited November 27, 2021 by TheWayTheWorldWorks
Riffles

[Howl]

Does jury selection in Josh's trial start Monday? 

[BensAllergies]

1 hour ago, Howl said:

Does jury selection in Josh's trial start Monday? 

I’ll quote it in a spoiler below the link, but it says that jury selection will begin Tuesday, after the evidentiary hearing on Monday. The judge also speculated that jury selection could spill into Wednesday.

https://kfor.com/news/trial-protocols-jury-selection-procedures-outlined-in-josh-duggar-child-porn-pretrial-hearing/amp/

Spoiler

In addition to calling for an evidentiary hearing during a November 18 pretrial conference, Judge Timothy L. Brooks also outlined trial protocols and jury selection procedures for the upcoming Josh Duggar child porn trial.

The evidentiary hearing is scheduled for November 29 in the Western District Court of Arkansas in Fayetteville, with jury selection to begin the following day.

The judge covered COVID-19 protocol for the trial, noting that members of the public in the gallery will be required to wear masks, but there will be a mask exception for “trial participants in speaking roles.” He added that testifying witnesses will be encouraged to remove masks while talking, but will not be forced to do so.

He continued by making a distinction between the expected courtroom access and availability for jury selection and the trial itself. During jury selection, the judge expects that there will be no room for the public or media in the courtroom.

He stated that an overflow courtroom will be used for those purposes, with audio and possibly video played.

After jury selection, the court anticipates a limit of “between 40 to 48 people” in the gallery due to spacing protocols. If more room is needed, the overflow courtroom will once again be used.

The jury selection process consists of selecting from two panels of 60 members each. The judge noted his hopes that approximately 48 will appear from each panel, with others excused for various reasons.

He anticipated that the lists will be “winnowed” before November 30. A maximum of 48 can be seated for the final selection process, according to the judge.

The final jury will consist of 12 members, with the judge still to decide on whether there will be two or three alternates. He speculated that the selection process could continue into a second day, December 1.

Regarding preliminary instructions to the jury, the judge feels the case is “in pretty good shape,” with the two sides having minor differences. He stated that the goal is to “make things as understandable as possible,” and that the government’s version is “much clearer.”

The judge stated that he will blend the two and include jury instructions in an upcoming Statement of the Case.

Judge Brooks scheduled an evidentiary hearing for November 29 that will include the witnesses at issue in opposing court filings. Jury selection is scheduled to begin on November 30 at the Fayetteville District Court.

Duggar faces up to 20 years in prison and fines of up to $250,000 on each count if convicted.

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by BensAllergies