Erin & Chad 8: Hasbro Paine, Cleveland Paine, Labour Paine

[SassyPants]

2 hours ago, Hazelbunny said:

Preemies and eyeproblems: 

I think it also helps, that they have different methods of ventilating (is that the right word?) the babies if they are premature and don't always need to put them on quite as much oxygene as they used to. 

My eye doctor says the number of preemies with severe eye problems is significantly lower than it used to be. (Former 29 weeker here, born 1984, was on 100% Oxygene for the first 3 weeks or so after birth, which damaged my eyes petty badly.. Right eye blind, left eye 4 - 5 % vision,  but otherwise no medical issus, so I count myself very lucky  )

Yes, true. I started working in the Nicu in 1980 and therapies changed dramatically in the 80s and 90s. In earlier years not as much was known about the caustic side effects of many therapies and medications. Oxygen can be damaging to tissues and blood vessels, and certain antibiotics are toxic to the kidneys and nerves in the ears. 

[Melissa1977]

I think that none of Erin's kids was in the NICU and all them were healthy newborns. Tiny, but enough developed.

I know 2 girls who needed glasses before turning 2 years old. They had a very noticeable myopia. Looking at them playing was enough to notice something was off. They weren't preemies. Sometimes, things happen for no reason (just genetics and bad luck). 

[nausicaa]

On 2/5/2022 at 3:54 PM, SassyPants said:

Prematurity is not necessarily the risk factor for eye problems, it’s the therapies that many premature babies require, mainly oxygen, witch damages eyes. So preterm babies can have undeveloped lungs which then requires breathing assistance, including supplement oxygen, which can scar lung tissue and blood vessels in the eyes. Also, periods of hypoxia (decreased oxygen level) can cause constriction of blood vessels leading to further issues with the eyes. 

Yes, my aunt was blind for this reason. She was born premature in the late forties and was put in one of the new miraculous incubators with piped in oxygen. It *was* miraculous in that she probably wouldn't have survived if born a decade earlier in rural Appalachia, but they used to just crank the oxygen in, not realizing the downsides.

I've noticed a lot of early baby boomers with blindness have a similar story. My aunt's classmates at the school for the blind she attended often were fellow premies. 

[Jackie3]

45 minutes ago, Melissa1977 said:

I know 2 girls who needed glasses before turning 2 years old. They had a very noticeable myopia. Looking at them playing was enough to notice something was off. They weren't preemies. Sometimes, things happen for no reason (just genetics and bad luck). 

They watched a one-year old play and suspected myopia? That must have been pretty bad myopia.  One year olds "play" by doing  things like banging on pots, scribbling in books, chasing a sibling, splashing in water, climb on sofas. I don't know how you'd spot myopia from those things, unless it was very severe indeed.

On top of that, it's difficult to figure out their prescription, since they can't sit still, don't follow directions, have poor communication skills and generally can't read letters (I know there are eye charts with symbols, but again, these are difficult to use with toddlers. You don't know if the toddler is silent because he doesn't see the giraffe, or doesn't know the word "giraffe.")

A one-year old also can't answer the question, "Is this better. . . or this? 1. . . .or 2?" I know they can use a retinoscope but even with that, it is hard, since toddlers don't stay still for very long.

This makes me worried for Everly. I hope she doesn't have a serious vision problem.

Edited February 7, 2022 by Jackie3

[CaptainFunderpants]

4 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

They watched a one-year old play and suspected myopia? That must have been very severe myopia.

If both parents wore glasses from the time they were young, it would make sense that they'd be on the lookout (no pun intended). I would guess it could also be a close-in-age older sibling that notices. If a 3-year-old sees their two-year-old sibling unable to do what they could do at the same age, it's going to seem very stark to that child.

Also, I went through Erin's IG and not smiling for pics seems to just be something her girls go through. Plenty with Everly and Holland not smiling through toddlerhood either.

And one more clarification: It doesn't look like Brooklyn is screaming in the picture generating discussion. None of the other kids are reacting to it at all; pretty sure she's just making a ridiculous face. Reminds me of Missy on Young Sheldon.

 

[Grandma D]

13 hours ago, Hazelbunny said:

Preemies and eyeproblems: 

I think it also helps, that they have different methods of ventilating (is that the right word?) the babies if they are premature and don't always need to put them on quite as much oxygene as they used to. 

My eye doctor says the number of preemies with severe eye problems is significantly lower than it used to be. (Former 29 weeker here, born 1984, was on 100% Oxygene for the first 3 weeks or so after birth, which damaged my eyes petty badly.. Right eye blind, left eye 4 - 5 % vision,  but otherwise no medical issus, so I count myself very lucky  )

It also helps because they are using g donor milk instead of formula for preemies which contains what the babies need to finish eye development. Formula doesn't provide what they need to the same degree.

[JermajestyDuggar]

14 hours ago, Hazelbunny said:

Preemies and eyeproblems: 

I think it also helps, that they have different methods of ventilating (is that the right word?) the babies if they are premature and don't always need to put them on quite as much oxygene as they used to. 

My eye doctor says the number of preemies with severe eye problems is significantly lower than it used to be. (Former 29 weeker here, born 1984, was on 100% Oxygene for the first 3 weeks or so after birth, which damaged my eyes petty badly.. Right eye blind, left eye 4 - 5 % vision,  but otherwise no medical issus, so I count myself very lucky  )

My mom was born in 55 and got too much oxygen at birth and has terrible eyesight. She was the only one in her kindergarten class with glasses and she hated it. I can’t imagine her without glasses tbh. I doubt most people would even recognize her without her glasses. 

[front hugs > duggs]

Not a pre-term baby and was born totally healthy, and was also in glasses around age 3 . I am so lucky and privileged to have had a cross eye my whole life!

90's glasses for children were NOT cute, btw.

[Hazelbunny]

28 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

My mom was born in 55 and got too much oxygen at birth and has terrible eyesight. She was the only one in her kindergarten class with glasses and she hated it. I can’t imagine her without glasses tbh. I doubt most people would even recognize her without her glasses. 

I have worn glasses all my life.(from about age 3) and always wished I didn*t need them (as a child/teen)  Then in 2014 I had another retinal detachment, was operated on multiple times. I lost half my sight (from 10% down to 4), but I now only wear glasses for reading with a sort of magnifying glass in them. So I now have what I wished for as a child.  Kind of ironic isn't it? And 8 years later I still get moments when I panic, because I am outside withourmy glasses!!  

[JermajestyDuggar]

28 minutes ago, front hugs > duggs said:

Not a pre-term baby and was born totally healthy, and was also in glasses around age 3 . I am so lucky and privileged to have had a cross eye my whole life!

90's glasses for children were NOT cute, btw.

Oh I think they were cute! 90s glasses were so huge on little faces. It was adorable. 

[imokit]

A big difference between now and the olden days re eye problems is that people know about it.

All NICUs should have screening criteria, babies born under 32 weeks should all have eye checks in NICU, other babies will meet criteria.  Retinopathy of prematurity (the prem baby eye issue) is detectable in NICU and easily treatable in NICU.  Thus the numbers should be down.

Prem eye issues are different from focusing/other sight problems as its due to oxygen causing lots of growth of blood vessels at the back of the eye. All the blood vessels at the back of eye, mean less eye room for nerve cells to detect light, which means less sight.  It can be treated with laser.

None of Erin's kids have met criteria for prem screening, they've all been big enough and old enough to not need NICU/oxygen/IVs.

[Jackie3]

13 hours ago, CaptainFunderpants said:

 I would guess it could also be a close-in-age older sibling that notices. If a 3-year-old sees their two-year-old sibling unable to do what they could do at the same age, it's going to seem very stark to that child.

 

Maybe 3-year olds have changed in the last few years. My three-year olds were very wrapped up in their own play. They didn't notice or care what their younger siblings were doing, as long as the siblings weren't touching their stuff.

There are other reasons this would not happen. A three-year old doesn't understand developmental skill levels at various ages of toddlerhood. A 3-year old has only a foggy idea of what's developmentally appropriate for a 23-month old younger sibling, for example.

They certainly can't pull up a memory of themselves at 23 months, compare the different skill levels, and make an assessment that their sibling is developmentally behind.  ("Let's see, when I was 23 months, that would've been the  December before last...I could definitely do puzzles then, but I couldn't really make a block tower yet. . ")

Basically, you can't expect them to say, "I think Lilly should be able to fit that puzzle piece into the space at her age. It might be her eyes. Are they bad?" You're more likely to get, "Lilly doesn't like puzzles, she wants the playdoh. Also she pooped."

No, I don't think many vision problems are identified by 3-year old siblings. 

 

 

Edited February 7, 2022 by Jackie3

[HerNameIsBuffy]

2 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

Maybe 3-year olds have changed in the last few years. My three-year olds were very wrapped up in their own play. They didn't notice or care what their younger siblings were doing, as long as the siblings weren't touching their stuff.

There are other reasons this would not happen. A three-year old doesn't understand developmental skill levels at various ages of toddlerhood. A 3-year old has only a foggy idea of what's developmentally appropriate for a 23-month old younger sibling. They certainly can't pull up a memory of themselves at 23 months, compare the different skill levels, and make an assessment that their sibling is developmentally behind.  ("Let's see, when I was 23 months, that would've been the  December before last. . . I could definitely do puzzles then. . .")

Basically, you can't expect them to say, "I think Lilly should be able to fit that puzzle piece into the space at her age. It might be her eyes. Are they bad?" You're more likely to get, "Lilly doesn't like puzzles, she wants the playdoh."

No, I don't think many vision problems are identified by 3-year old siblings. 

 

 

I doubt very much @CaptainFunderpants was suggesting the toddler write up an formal assessment and referral for their sibling.

But in a general way kids knowing what they liked to do and pointing it out that their sibling can't/doesn't which can trigger a parent into noticing is certainly plausible.  

[CaptainFunderpants]

 

@Jackie3 One of my favorite parts of toddler development is them musing about and referencing the time before they could talk.

One of my favorite stories my mom tells about my own early childhood is how apparently my parents did an easter egg hunt for me when I was 15 months old, and then the next year when I could toddle and talk more confidently, I was very confused that the eggs weren't hidden in the same places they had been in the prior year.

I have no recollection of either event, but kids remember things vividly. The neuroplasticity of babies and toddlers is nuts.

And yes, as @HerNameIsBuffy suggested, I wasn't saying the siblings would give a clinical report, just a 'Why can't/doesn't Everly do x?' would be a tip-off for Erin. If Everly is nearsighted as I would expect, standing increasingly closer to the TV on a consistent basis would be another good tip-off. Guessing the Paine kids do a fair bit of looking for wildlife; if she can't see the birds or squirrels and/or doesn't initiate pointing them out, that's a good clue that something is wrong.

[CanadianMamam]

This is really interesting about preemie eye problems, because it was something we were told to look out for, I just assumed it had to do with gestation. I was kind of in a fog then and just followed the checklist they gave us. I am lucky that we had really good healthcare and that she was followed up by a neonatal clinic until 2.

[backyard sylph]

I seem to recall reading quite awhile ago about a mother who noticed her toddler sort of bumping into the edges of things, having some trouble on stairs, that sort of thing. She thought he was clumsy, but mentioned it to a doctor, and they figured out it was severe myopia. I think he was very excited when he saw the difference in things with glasses on. 

[just_ordinary]

8 hours ago, CaptainFunderpants said:

 

@Jackie3 One of my favorite parts of toddler development is them musing about and referencing the time before they could talk.

One of my favorite stories my mom tells about my own early childhood is how apparently my parents did an easter egg hunt for me when I was 15 months old, and then the next year when I could toddle and talk more confidently, I was very confused that the eggs weren't hidden in the same places they had been in the prior year.

I have no recollection of either event, but kids remember things vividly. The neuroplasticity of babies and toddlers is nuts.

And yes, as @HerNameIsBuffy suggested, I wasn't saying the siblings would give a clinical report, just a 'Why can't/doesn't Everly do x?' would be a tip-off for Erin. If Everly is nearsighted as I would expect, standing increasingly closer to the TV on a consistent basis would be another good tip-off. Guessing the Paine kids do a fair bit of looking for wildlife; if she can't see the birds or squirrels and/or doesn't initiate pointing them out, that's a good clue that something is wrong.

But children developed so individually. The time span when they should be able to do stuff is massive. Some one year olds talk in two word sentences from their first birthday but won’t let go of your hand to walk freely down the stairs at age three. Some children are just slow on the motor skill side. 
And while young children love this kind of talking about the past, it’s all very focused on their own interests. If the child in question just doesn’t like puzzles or still doesn’t get them it won’t help if the older sibling points out that they loved them when they were two.  Not spotting something can be a good indicator, but they just might look slightly at the wrong angle, or are focused on something else. Especially if it’s over a longer distance.

In my experience all young children try to stand close to the tv. How do you differentiate between “can’t see” and just „wanting to be closer”. But I think Erin’s children are too young to have so much tv time to spot such a difference. I mean Everly is 3, almost 4. That’s like 10-30min a day max. if at all?

At Everly’s age clumsiness is still a good warning sign. And some children are extremely good at communicating at three so she might be able to express problems by now. But that’s not a given. While my three year old would tell me in a very differentiated way she can’t see well and how, I definitely cannot rely on her motor skills to detect something.
There some general signs for babies and small children. When they generally have shown the consistent ability to do something but it doesn’t work consistently. Bumping into things. Being extra careful with heights or in unfamiliar places (still vague because they might just be hyper careful children). Like grabbing but missing objects. Squinting, rubbing the eyes a lot, rolling eyes a lot, a ton of face making (hard to notice because she might just do it for fun), being sensitive to light, permanently watery or sticky eyes, tilting the head compulsively. I would also think that at Baby check ups (do you have some in the US?) a paediatrician checks the eyes and looks for signs a parent is unable to spot: pupil reaction to light, colouring, clouded cornea…

Our doctors test their eyes eyes at all check ups (8 till their are 36months). Obviously the testing methods change/get more advanced as they get older. You can also opt for a refractometre test from 6months on. And we definitely check preemies more. So seeing children age 2/3+ onwards with glasses is not unusual.

I don’t think Everly has necessarily a severe case of anything. Maybe she even won’t need the glasses forever if it’s more about a correction than a consistent problem. Has Erin said what they are for?

In any case, it’s good to see that they are either perceptive enough to realise they need a doctors opinion or get their children regular check ups. And that they are willing to money into a glass prescription.

Edited February 8, 2022 by just_ordinary

[GreenBeans]

9 hours ago, CanadianMamam said:

This is really interesting about preemie eye problems, because it was something we were told to look out for, I just assumed it had to do with gestation. I was kind of in a fog then and just followed the checklist they gave us. I am lucky that we had really good healthcare and that she was followed up by a neonatal clinic until 2.

A friend of my mom’s had a preemie in the 80s, and they asked her if she wanted to participate in a long-term study on developmental delays of preemies, so her son had follow-up appointments every year (usually an interview and certain age-specific activities) until he was 18 and aged out of the study. At their last appointment, they received copies of all the videos taken throughout the years, and she said it’s such a cool thing to have!

[zee_four]

15 hours ago, front hugs > duggs said:

Not a pre-term baby and was born totally healthy, and was also in glasses around age 3 . I am so lucky and privileged to have had a cross eye my whole life!

90's glasses for children were NOT cute, btw.

I'm with you girl! I had glasses around age 4-5. I rocked these gigantic big pink glasses from 91/92-98 when I finally was able to get smaller frames and then by grade 5 I got contacts because ice hockey, skiing and snowboarding with glasses is hard and I was a very mature and responsible little kid. By middle school I went off the deep end but I already had my contacts. But between the awful glasses, giant noticeable hearing aids and being so tall I was 6' by 11.... elementary school was hell other than the actual learning which I adored. 

[Marly]

18 hours ago, front hugs > duggs said:

Not a pre-term baby and was born totally healthy, and was also in glasses around age 3 . I am so lucky and privileged to have had a cross eye my whole life!

90's glasses for children were NOT cute, btw.

Same here. Though I am farsighted and not near-sighted.
At the age of 2,5, I was extremely cross-eyed, which is how they noticed it. Far-sightedness doesn't happen a lot in children, and at that time doctors didn't like to prescribe glasses for far-sightedness to children. I think because they thought it would make the issue worse.
I also had a lazy eye (the cross-eyed eye), so I had to put patches on my good eye everyday from age 2 to 12. From age 6 and up that really sucked because classmates really teased me about it. 
I got contacts at age 14, but because my eyesight was so bad, plus far-sighted, plus astigmatism in my bad eye, plus dry eyes, I could only wear hard contactlenses, and I could only wear those for a maximum of 10 hours a day on good days.
Due to side effects of medication over time my eyes became drier and drier, and contact lenses were no longer an option. So at 24 I went back to glasses permanently. Sometimes, mostly when exercising, I wish I could still wear contacts, but overall I like how glasses look on me, plus my hb thinks glasses are very hot so I got that going for me 😂

My mom felt really guilty that it took them until I was 2,5 to discover that I needed glasses. She said that when they put the glasses on me in the store I started looking around and noticing details. Same when we went home; I told them that I could see leaves on the trees (instead of just a green mass on top) (I still can't see details like that without glasses). She felt bad that I hadn't been able to see any details for so long and that they hadn't noticed it. The doctor reassured her that it is really difficult to spot in young children because 1) they can't articulate yet that they can't see, and 2) they don't know any better, and it's hard to address something you don't know isn't supposed to be a certain way.
She doesn't feel guilty anymore, but I have noticed that she is kind of vigilant about it in my baby niece. 

[rosamundi]

36 minutes ago, Marly said:

My mom felt really guilty that it took them until I was 2,5 to discover that I needed glasses. She said that when they put the glasses on me in the store I started looking around and noticing details. Same when we went home; I told them that I could see leaves on the trees (instead of just a green mass on top) (I still can't see details like that without glasses). She felt bad that I hadn't been able to see any details for so long and that they hadn't noticed it. The doctor reassured her that it is really difficult to spot in young children because 1) they can't articulate yet that they can't see, and 2) they don't know any better, and it's hard to address something you don't know isn't supposed to be a certain way.
She doesn't feel guilty anymore, but I have noticed that she is kind of vigilant about it in my baby niece. 

My parents realised when I was 11 that maybe I needed an eye test. Dad pointed out a massive flowering bush out on the other side of the road and my reaction made it extremely obvious that I couldn't see the detail.

The optician said it's really common for parents to not realise and kids to not complain, because the kid thinks it's normal, and if they're not struggling in class there's not often any clues that something is wrong. I'd always sat at the front in class, never had any problems following the teacher, and if you're used to the world being fuzzy blobs, it's just not something you mention - you assume everyone is the same.

[clueliss]

In third grade (8, earlier in the same month I turned 9) I was sick a lot in third grade. Multiple rounds of things like strep throat. And when I missed school I would call classmates to get homework assignments so I can try to stay up-to-date. My parents noticed I was miss dialing phone numbers. I couldn’t tell the difference between a one and a seven in the phonebook. Off to the eye doctor I went in back with glasses I came. Nearsighted.

[front hugs > duggs]

4 hours ago, Marly said:

Same here. Though I am farsighted and not near-sighted.
At the age of 2,5, I was extremely cross-eyed, which is how they noticed it. Far-sightedness doesn't happen a lot in children, and at that time doctors didn't like to prescribe glasses for far-sightedness to children. I think because they thought it would make the issue worse.
I also had a lazy eye (the cross-eyed eye), so I had to put patches on my good eye everyday from age 2 to 12. From age 6 and up that really sucked because classmates really teased me about it. 
I got contacts at age 14, but because my eyesight was so bad, plus far-sighted, plus astigmatism in my bad eye, plus dry eyes, I could only wear hard contactlenses, and I could only wear those for a maximum of 10 hours a day on good days.
Due to side effects of medication over time my eyes became drier and drier, and contact lenses were no longer an option. So at 24 I went back to glasses permanently. Sometimes, mostly when exercising, I wish I could still wear contacts, but overall I like how glasses look on me, plus my hb thinks glasses are very hot so I got that going for me 😂

My mom felt really guilty that it took them until I was 2,5 to discover that I needed glasses. She said that when they put the glasses on me in the store I started looking around and noticing details. Same when we went home; I told them that I could see leaves on the trees (instead of just a green mass on top) (I still can't see details like that without glasses). She felt bad that I hadn't been able to see any details for so long and that they hadn't noticed it. The doctor reassured her that it is really difficult to spot in young children because 1) they can't articulate yet that they can't see, and 2) they don't know any better, and it's hard to address something you don't know isn't supposed to be a certain way.
She doesn't feel guilty anymore, but I have noticed that she is kind of vigilant about it in my baby niece. 

I think we actually may have the same eye issue! My parents asked me, at 3, if I wanted glasses or the patches, instead of being responsible and making the decision on their own. The doctors were hesitant about the glasses, because technically my left eye didn't need help, but that is the route we went. I got contacts around 5th grade for the same reason @zee_four mentioned- sports, and being done with awkward big glasses (my lenses were very thick, needing even bigger frames). I actually have been fine until very very recently, where I realize sometimes my eyes aren't working together- if the right is focusing on something, the left stops "seeing" and vice versa.

[Expectopatronus]

We’re monitoring my two year old for vision issues and have been since she was 8 months. Her eyes pull up and out when she tries to focus on things. She was a bit early, small and seized so it could be due to that or just rotten luck. There are lots of things to snark about with Erin but glasses on a three year old aren’t one of them. Brooklyn making a face in the photo is kinda reassuring as it means the kids aren’t been beaten into complete submission. 

[CanadianMamam]

Erin has had major health issues from Covid and had a newborn and yet seems to have no issues with relatives coming by straight after travel. Josie came over the day aft were coming back from Colorado, now Gil and Kelly came back straight after coming back from Florida. Kelly has been in like 4 states in the last 10 days. I really don't think Covid protocols are at the root of Erin's issues with her family.