Remnant Fellowship 20: Popping Popcorn, Waiting for the Bewigged Tiger King....

[nelliebelle1197]

15 minutes ago, GreenBeans said:

After seeing that picture, this song played in my head before I even got to that part of your post! 😂

Didn't it though!

[Alisamer]

14 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Can I offer just a suggestion on where I think the doc ... I don't want to say failed but I guess missed a narrative thread? It was sort of lost in all the drama, but I never got a sense of exactly how WD transitioned to RF. I mean, after years of following Gwen, I still don't know. I am sure a lot of viewers who had no clue about the Bewigged Tiger King's path might be confused as well! It would be lovely if the filmmaker could pop in 2-4 minutes on the transition years.

I haven't watched the doc but I agree... I feel like there's a step missing. It's like the underpants gnomes from South Park: Step 1, steal underpants. Step 2, ?????????.  Step 3, Profit!

Right now what I see is Step 1: successful Christian weight-loss program in mainstream churches. Step 2: ???????????????  Step 3: Cult + Profit!

I get that the denial of the trinity probably knocked out step 1, leading to step 2. But what is step 2? How did the cult start? From the outside it looks like things went straight from classes in churches all over, to a big single church calling all other ones counterfeit. That's a big jump. Were there small church meetings first? Did she use her Weigh Down mailing list to market her new church/cult? How did she get all these people to join up in the very beginning?

For me, forbidding Halloween would push me away from any church. I think mine does a "Trunk-or-treat" thing and that's about it, but I've never heard anyone forbidding Halloween. I buy home decor during Halloween that stays out year-round. Creepy stuff is fun, IMO! And beautiful, too, in many cases. Which Gwen and Elizabeth seem to agree with, at least when it comes to clothing and makeup. 

[TDHuggies]

2 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I haven't watched the doc but I agree... I feel like there's a step missing. It's like the underpants gnomes from South Park: Step 1, steal underpants. Step 2, ?????????.  Step 3, Profit!

Right now what I see is Step 1: successful Christian weight-loss program in mainstream churches. Step 2: ???????????????  Step 3: Cult + Profit!

I get that the denial of the trinity probably knocked out step 1, leading to step 2. But what is step 2? How did the cult start? From the outside it looks like things went straight from classes in churches all over, to a big single church calling all other ones counterfeit. That's a big jump. Were there small church meetings first? Did she use her Weigh Down mailing list to market her new church/cult? How did she get all these people to join up in the very beginning?

For me, forbidding Halloween would push me away from any church. I think mine does a "Trunk-or-treat" thing and that's about it, but I've never heard anyone forbidding Halloween. I buy home decor during Halloween that stays out year-round. Creepy stuff is fun, IMO! And beautiful, too, in many cases. Which Gwen and Elizabeth seem to agree with, at least when it comes to clothing and makeup. 

Gwen had been a member of one of the area Church of Christs or something like that. She took issue with the hypocrisy etc and began meeting with the Martins and another two couples (can't remember off-hand who it was). They began meeting on the regular. This is when things were going big for WD and they started the church...this had huge advantages (taxes being a big one). Along with financially being a factor it also allowed her to "correct" all the things she saw wrong with the other church (which I believe her main focus at the beginning was the "authority line").  She used WD to promote her new church and the growth happened pretty quick. 

[Tibby]

36 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

I haven't watched the doc but I agree... I feel like there's a step missing. It's like the underpants gnomes from South Park: Step 1, steal underpants. Step 2, ?????????.  Step 3, Profit!

Right now what I see is Step 1: successful Christian weight-loss program in mainstream churches. Step 2: ???????????????  Step 3: Cult + Profit!

I get that the denial of the trinity probably knocked out step 1, leading to step 2. But what is step 2? How did the cult start? From the outside it looks like things went straight from classes in churches all over, to a big single church calling all other ones counterfeit. That's a big jump. Were there small church meetings first? Did she use her Weigh Down mailing list to market her new church/cult? How did she get all these people to join up in the very beginning?

 

Weighdown is still separate from Remnant. You can participate in Weighdown and belong to a different church. They encourage you to join Remnant, but you do not have to. Recently some Roman Catholic people posted on the Weighdown FB page in support of Gwen.

[JermajestyDuggar]

1 minute ago, Tibby said:

Weighdown is still separate from Remnant. You can participate in Weighdown and belong to a different church. They encourage you to join Remnant, but you do not have to. Recently some Roman Catholic people posted on the Weighdown FB page in support of Gwen.

I imagine they suck people in most frequently in this way. They are interested in weigh down. And the more they get Tom is everyone, the more they are probably love bombed and asked to visit the church with them. 

[Tibby]

13 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I imagine they suck people in most frequently in this way. They are interested in weigh down. And the more they get Tom is everyone, the more they are probably love bombed and asked to visit the church with them. 

If a person approves of the message and the theology, that person could watch all of the services online, participate in Weighdown classes and avoid the membership s*&t show. Easy to do when far away.

Edited October 4, 2021 by Tibby
fixed cuss word

[nelliebelle1197]

42 minutes ago, TDHuggies said:

Gwen had been a member of one of the area Church of Christs or something like that. She took issue with the hypocrisy etc and began meeting with the Martins and another two couples (can't remember off-hand who it was). They began meeting on the regular. This is when things were going big for WD and they started the church...this had huge advantages (taxes being a big one). Along with financially being a factor it also allowed her to "correct" all the things she saw wrong with the other church (which I believe her main focus at the beginning was the "authority line").  She used WD to promote her new church and the growth happened pretty quick. 

It's just so hard to get the old head around how this diet plan led to a church- I mean, I see what you are saying but there just seems to be a... reason??? for this missing!

[throwaway9988]

1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Can I offer just a suggestion on where I think the doc ... I don't want to say failed but I guess missed a narrative thread? It was sort of lost in all the drama, but I never got a sense of exactly how WD transitioned to RF. I mean, after years of following Gwen, I still don't know. I am sure a lot of viewers who had no clue about the Bewigged Tiger King's path might be confused as well! It would be lovely if the filmmaker could pop in 2-4 minutes on the transition years.

You’re right that it wasn’t explained a ton.  It’s not the most straightforward subject. Opinions on exactly how the WD to RF transition happened also might vary. Of the people in the documentary, Gina Wilson would know the best. I wasn’t there in person so I might be wrong, but this is my understanding of it.

In her original audiotapes, and then in her early videos such as “Weigh Down Workshop” and “Exodus Out of Egypt,” Gwen did an amazing job of selling herself as happy, healthy, and having an amazing and fulfilling relationship with God.  In these early videos you can see how a lot of people out there instantly wanted what Gwen was selling for themselves. Even in these early products, Gwen was telling people that they need to follow God's will at all times in their daily life, interpreting incidents in their normal lives as signs from God that will lead them towards blessings.  People wanted the amazing relationship with God that Gwen was selling, so they tried out what she said to do.  And what Gwen was telling people to do was to convince themselves that every little coincidence in their life was God guiding them and loving them (or cursing them for disobedience, but most of the focus was on love originally). So of course when people are biasing themselves and convincing themselves that God is constantly acting in their lives, God started to feel real to them like never before.  It is a good feeling.  Suddenly the world isn't a scary random place where evil things might happen to you; instead, God is guiding you constantly, and obeying him will help more good things happen to you.  Even though it's contradictory, feeling like God is in full control of your life actually makes you feel like you yourself have more control over your life.  Suddenly you have a secret best friend who just happens to also be omnipotent.  Plus, convincing yourself that if you eat too much you will burn in Hell does tend to help you lose a bit of weight, at least at first.  So people tend to think to themselves, "Wow, this really works, and if Gwen is right about this, then maybe she is right about everything else; I'm gonna give it a try." In summary, people were favorably  predisposed because they desperately wanted to be skinny and also to have the amazing relationship with God that Gwen was selling them, then they tried it out and it felt really good to accept the beliefs that Gwen was selling, and then they got some concrete results from starving themselves which confirmed what they already wanted to believe.

Keep in mind that taking a Weigh Down class and starting to accept all of Gwen's beliefs usually happens while people are still attending their normal churches, so there is often no reason for alarm bells to be going off in anyone's head.  But even in these early videos, Gwen had already laid out most or all of her core RF beliefs.  Even in the early videos she was telling people they needed to obey God's leadings and purify themselves 100% in all areas (lust, greed, anger, etc.; not just food, although since it was a diet, food was talked about the most). All of the core beliefs of Remnant were there early on, but Gwen hadn't started her own church yet so people usually didn't react negatively to those beliefs, they mostly reacted positively or just didn't care about the theological differences since they were all still going to their usual churches while participating in the weight down diet. 

Due to the popularity of Weigh Down, Gwen reportedly had tons of people calling her and coming up to her at events saying how their lives had been changed, their relationships with God had been changed, and asking why hadn't they ever been taught how to have a relationship with God in their other churches. (And as one of the people in the documentary noted, the tax benefits from transitioning from a business into a church are too good to pass up, which may also have played a role in Gwen’s decision to start her own church.) I can't speculate any further on Gwen's motivations and the exact details about how things went down because I wasn't there, but around this time Gwen started Remnant Fellowship with a very small group of people. 

Soon afterwards, Gwen held a large Weigh Down convention called Desert Oasis, which served as a "coming out" party and made it unmistakeably clear that her beliefs were different from conventional christian beliefs and that she had felt called by God to start a true church--Remnant Fellowship. Desert Oasis is also where Gwen made it clear that she felt people were gaining their weight back because their normal churches weren’t reinforcing that people needed to obey god 100%. Gina Wilson said some of this in the documentary but I have a feeling that a lot of what she said on the subject wasn’t included, probably just due to time contraints and the documentary having so many more juicy things to talk about in other areas. Anyways, Desert Oasis finally made people notice that Gwen's beliefs and their normal church's beliefs might not be able to coexist. Some people left, but others enthusiastically stayed under Gwen's teachings which had changed their lives so much. The same thing happened with the Trinity controversy and Gwen getting dropped by her publisher. But again, the people who stayed were obviously the most zealous and drinking the Kool-aid the most, so that is who eventually contributed to the early Remnant Fellowship. 

And even after all these years as the Remnant has gotten weirder and more extreme, and despite lots of people started leaving or getting kicked out here and there, there has always been a steady influx of newcomers who get hooked by the weigh down videos and don't realize what they are getting themselves into.  And just like the original members, all of those people start out by taking a relatively innocuous class, feeling like they have an amazing relationship with God for the first time in their lives, and thinking to themselves: "Why didnt my original church teach me to have this kind of relationship with God? Gwen must really be hitting on ideas that everyone else has been missing." And a subset of those people can be convinced to visit RF where they get lovebombed and have the time of their lives...and I'm sure you know the rest.

As a teenager in RF, I repeatedly heard these origin stories that Gwen and RF would tell themselves about themselves. It all starts to sound a bit mythical after a while. And there wasn’t any outside commentary on how exactly it all transpired, so it was biased because you can’t expect them to focus on unpalatable/cynical subjects like tax benefits. But this is what RF tells themselves about their own origins. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by throwaway9988

[Tibby]

4 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

It's just so hard to get the old head around how this diet plan led to a church- I mean, I see what you are saying but there just seems to be a... reason??? for this missing!

IMHO the persecution after the denial of the Trinity led to the church. It's very Biblical. Gwen said many times that she wanted Remnant modeled after the early Christian churches. When Christians were being fed to lions, they had to hang together and take care of each other. This theme is common in Paul's letters to the early churches in Corinth, Thessalonica, and Ephesus.

[Roscoe]

40 minutes ago, throwaway9988 said:

Suddenly the world isn't a scary random place where evil things might happen to you; instead, God is guiding you constantly, and obeying him will help more good things happen to you.  Even though it's contradictory, feeling like God is in full control of your life actually makes you feel like you yourself have more control over your life.  Suddenly you have a secret best friend who just happens to also be omnipotent.  Plus, convincing yourself that if you eat too much you will burn in Hell does tend to help you lose a bit of weight, at least at first.  So people tend to think to themselves, "Wow, this really works, and if Gwen is right about this, then maybe she is right about everything else; I'm gonna give it a try." In summary, people were favorably  predisposed because they desperately wanted to be skinny and also to have the amazing relationship with God that Gwen was selling them, then they tried it out and it felt really good to accept the beliefs that Gwen was selling, and then they got some concrete results from starving themselves which confirmed what they already wanted to believe.

You hit the nail on the head. THIS is why RF is so seductive. This is why normal, intelligent, kind, and thoughtful people get completely sucked in. It's also why I feel kind of skeptical of people who say "I'm too smart to join a cult."

This world is such a painful and confusing place. So many people (even seemingly successful, put-together people) feel a fundamental emptiness and loneliness in their hearts. Gwen pointed out that emptiness and capitalized on it, selling people on this miracle cure for the deep pain of the human condition. The worst part of her grift is that it often seems to work at first. For the first time in many people's lives they have a community that seems to love them. They are feeling the love of God and every moment seems heightened to this marvelous ecstasy. You think, "this is how people should be." It's intoxicating and addictive, especially if your previous life was mundane and grinding.

People will give anything for a slice of joy. I've watched college professors, scientists, doctors, and theologians get sucked into Gwen's message and become devoted followers. You'd think they'd get turned off, that their rational brain would see the signs and see it was just an illusion, but they don't. Even the "most intelligent" among us can feel lonely, can feel like their lives are meaningless. Gwen offered them the sense of meaning they were craving and that emotional connection overrides the rational warning bells 9 times out of 10.

Anyone can get sucked into a cult. It takes an active sense of skepticism to avoid it and even skeptical people can be sucked in if they are at a low enough point in their lives.

[RTR]

I was attending a Church of Christ (a relatively liberal one, by C of C standards) in the mid-90s, and that is where I first participated  in the Weighdown Workshop.  What she was saying back then didn’t seem particularly unscriptural, but something that REALLY rubbed me the wrong way was the session where she referred to depression as a “legalized pout”.  Even as a young woman who didn’t have much knowledge about mental health issues, I knew that was a load of horse crap, but I overlooked it because I had dropped some weight quickly and was happy with my body.  Watching the documentary brought Gwen’s ridiculous statement to mind.  I feel so sorry for the people who suffered because of Gwen’s warped theology and lust for power and wealth.  I can totally see how people could get sucked in, because she was very charismatic.  I am beyond thankful my involvement (and that of my friends/family) was limited to doing the class, prior to Gwen leaving Otter Creek C of C (if I remember correctly - it may have been a different one) and starting RF. 

Edited October 4, 2021 by RTR
Clarity

[rabbitholejulie]

I wonder if Joe Lara ever saw Gwen without big hair and makeup.  These are the important questions that come to mind...

[Destiny]

2 hours ago, Tibby said:

If a person approves of the message and the theology, that person could watch all of the services online, participate in Weighdown classes and avoid the membership s*&t show. Easy to do when far away.

You are allowed to swear here. Gods knows if we weren't I would have been shown the door years ago. Except for hate speech, you can use whatever words you like.

[Pathologic Antagonist]

3 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I haven't watched the doc but I agree... I feel like there's a step missing. It's like the underpants gnomes from South Park: Step 1, steal underpants. Step 2, ?????????.  Step 3, Profit!

Right now what I see is Step 1: successful Christian weight-loss program in mainstream churches. Step 2: ???????????????  Step 3: Cult + Profit!

I get that the denial of the trinity probably knocked out step 1, leading to step 2. But what is step 2? How did the cult start? From the outside it looks like things went straight from classes in churches all over, to a big single church calling all other ones counterfeit. That's a big jump. Were there small church meetings first? Did she use her Weigh Down mailing list to market her new church/cult? How did she get all these people to join up in the very beginning?
 

You are hitting on the answer.

The linearity of the narrative is loaded, but the discussion was in in ep 1.  It was well established in the documentary how massive the WDW had grown (I observed that people within the church at large were looking for an alternative outlet). Then at the point just before the Desert Oasis video clip with Gwen was shown, at height of her popularity, Gwen decided to use her bully pulpit as a recruitment platform for her 1999 Remnant Fellowship church plant. 

The video of her DO talk in 2000 was the shot across the bow of the church by Lara before thousands of stunned people. She shocked her rapt audiences with her Remnant vision and basically demanded they make their minds up and follow her to purity or stick with the counterfeit church and face God's wrath, The video was called "The State Of The Church" and a clip of the talk shown in the doc is brief but telling.

She repeated this same throwing down of the gauntlet in other cities on the tour that year. The sudden hardening of  her verbiage is what stunned everyone outside of her WDW business and church that formed the year before in Franklin (they knew what she was doing).

In her delusional arrogance (or if we want to be nice, her blind naivete), she really thought all of those thousands of women she preached to were all just going to line up and sign the dotted line and drink the kool aid.  Most of them responded .. by abandoning her trainwreck of newly hatched legalism. This drew the remark about half leaving and half staying .. 

In case you're interested, I get into this a lot more in depth in this article on the Spiritwatch site:

https://www.spiritwatch.org/remnantcultism.htm

 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Pathologic Antagonist

[formergothardite]

It seems like it was a perfect storm of things that brought about the rise of Gwen. Waif thin and starvation diets were popular, prosperity gospel was popular, mental illness was still viewed as a moral failure by many churches, and the idea of a God who rewards and punishes you wasn't too different than mainstream theology. So many Christians were already trained by their churches to easily accept what Gwen was saying. Plus people love an easy fix to their problems.

It must have frustrated her so much that she couldn't be seen as an equal to other church leaders because she lacked a penis. I can easily see why she would form her own church where the patriarchal notions of  mainstream Christianity wouldn't hold her back. And like entirely too many religious leaders, once she had thar power, she wanted more no matter who she hurt. 

I can understand how she made the leap to a cult, I just can't wrap my mind around her hair. How did she get to that point?

[Destiny]

1 minute ago, formergothardite said:

I can understand how she made the leap to a cult, I just can't wrap my mind around her hair. How did she get to that point?

The hair and the makeup, just how and why? I don't have many friends, but even I have a couple people in my life that would send me home for a hairbrush, shampoo, and a facewash if i showed up in public even close to looking like that.

[formergothardite]

10 minutes ago, Destiny said:

The hair and the makeup, just how and why? I don't have many friends, but even I have a couple people in my life that would send me home for a hairbrush, shampoo, and a facewash if i showed up in public even close to looking like that.

What even caused her to think that looked good? How did she go from a fairly normal appearance to looking like she is dressed for Halloween? 

[Destiny]

Just now, formergothardite said:

What even caused her to think that looked good? How did she go from a fairly normal appearance to looking like she is dressed for Halloween? 

These are questions I very much want the answer to but I fear we will never know.

[JermajestyDuggar]

17 minutes ago, Destiny said:

The hair and the makeup, just how and why? I don't have many friends, but even I have a couple people in my life that would send me home for a hairbrush, shampoo, and a facewash if i showed up in public even close to looking like that.

Because Gwen had NO ONE who would question her. This is exactly the kind of thing you get when no one around you says your hair looks like a bird’s nest. This is how you know she’s a cult leader. She’s surrounded by people who only tell her how great she is all the time. My friends would definitely tell me to brush my damn hair. 

[Roscoe]

Lol, like everything else, the hair was a gradual decline (or I suppose voluming) into insanity. Just got a little bigger every year. When I say I did not even notice it, I mean it. I was there for a very long time and I simply could not grasp people calling it crazy because it was always so subtle in how it got bigger and I simply did not see it.

You could make a very interesting infographic showing the positive correlation between the ever-increasing height of Gwen's hair and the cultiness of the church.

[Destiny]

Just now, JermajestyDuggar said:

Because Gwen had NO ONE who would question her. This is exactly the kind of thing you get when no one around you says your hair looks like a bird’s nest. This is how you know she’s a cult leader. She’s surrounded by people who only tell her how great she is all the time. My friends would definitely tell me to brush my damn hair. 

I mean, yeah, agreed, but still, WHY? I go whole days without brushing my hair, but I don't go places like that and even i know my foundation should match my skin and themax hair height should be an inch or two ... in the 90s. Which we aren't.

Just now, Roscoe said:

I was there for a very long time and I simply could not grasp people calling it crazy because it was always so subtle in how it got bigger and I simply did not see it.

There's points in the Doc where you could literally see whatever underneath support structure keeps it up. Just WHYYYYYYYY?

[JermajestyDuggar]

Just now, Destiny said:

I mean, yeah, agreed, but still, WHY? I go whole days without brushing my hair, but I don't go places like that and even i know my foundation should match my skin and themax hair height should be an inch or two ... in the 90s. Which we aren't.

I think she likes standing out. I bet she would get annoyed if someone copied her exact hair, makeup and clothing in the cult. 

[DietCherryCoke76]

7 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Every bite you take kills Jesus all over again.

Perfect.

It is perfect!  She wanted  you to stop eating for real!

[Roscoe]

3 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I think she likes standing out. I bet she would get annoyed if someone copied her exact hair, makeup and clothing in the cult. 

She was also massively insecure about her height. She frequently told tall women *jokingly* that their height was why they struggled so much with pride and self focus.

[JermajestyDuggar]

4 minutes ago, Roscoe said:

She was also massively insecure about her height. She frequently told tall women *jokingly* that their height was why they struggled so much with pride and self focus.

I bet. Those 6 inch heels and big hair screams, “I wish god had made me taller.”