Seewalds 46: Arugula, Rhododendrom, Milkweed, Dandelion, Foxglove, Dogwood, Nasturtium, Rhubarb...

[Nothing if not critical]

My MIL tried to make up for our sad lack of religious education as well - taking the kids to church services whenever we weren’t around, telling them about baby Jesus bringing presents instead of Santa, the occasional sappy book, etc. I‘m proud to say that my kids have proven to be perfectly resistant little heathens who think Grandma is super weird for believing all that stuff. They are completely respectful with her, but then afterwards will come to me and roll their eyes as they tell me about her latest shenanigans. My little one also got through Lutheran daycare without lasting damage. Don’t underestimate your own influence on your kids. Plus, I always say I was born without the religious authoritarian gene, and it seems so were my kids.

[imokit]

6 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

Just curious, how does that work out to have your child go to a religious school - but not be religious? Like, does he ask you about religious things? Or want to pray at home, or? What do you say? Ignore me if that’s too personal, it’s just interesting to me.

I think it depends where you are and how religious the school is.

Where I am (the UK) a huge portion of public schools are religious, some more so than others.  The religious ones are often better academically.  But they all follow the national curriculum.  In my old school (Church of England), we learned about God and we said prayers in the morning and in assembly.  We were allowed to ask questions and didn't have to believe.  My sister's school (Catholic) was similar.  A lot of these schools are easier to get into if you go to the affiliated house of worship (my brother was baptised aged 3 to get into to his local church school) but they still teach the same things. 

I went through a phase of being religious and wanting to go to church and then temple (my mum's family is Jewish) but didn't stick with it.

None of the 3 Christian schools me and my siblings went to (all different) objected to children not claiming that faith,  All taught mainstream things along with God.  My stepfather is a devout evangelical atheist and struggled with sending my sisters to catholic school but came around, because academically it was the best option for them.  Kids in school still spend far more time at home, home still influences more.

[Mama Mia]

45 minutes ago, imokit said:

I think it depends where you are and how religious the school is.

Where I am (the UK) a huge portion of public schools are religious, some more so than others.  The religious ones are often better academically.  But they all follow the national curriculum.  In my old school (Church of England), we learned about God and we said prayers in the morning and in assembly.  We were allowed to ask questions and didn't have to believe.  My sister's school (Catholic) was similar.  A lot of these schools are easier to get into if you go to the affiliated house of worship (my brother was baptised aged 3 to get into to his local church school) but they still teach the same things. 

I went through a phase of being religious and wanting to go to church and then temple (my mum's family is Jewish) but didn't stick with it.

None of the 3 Christian schools me and my siblings went to (all different) objected to children not claiming that faith,  All taught mainstream things along with God.  My stepfather is a devout evangelical atheist and struggled with sending my sisters to catholic school but came around, because academically it was the best option for them.  Kids in school still spend far more time at home, home still influences more.

That’s something that is just mind blowing to me. The U.S. is always portrayed as more religious than most other countries-and we seem to have a lot of extremists - but so many other countries seem to be ok with and take for granted that government paid schools can also be  religious schools - which only the most hard-core conservatives advocate for here. Really fascinating the differences! 

[Meggo]

9 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

Just curious, how does that work out to have your child go to a religious school - but not be religious? Like, does he ask you about religious things? Or want to pray at home, or? What do you say? Ignore me if that’s too personal, it’s just interesting to me.

 It hasn’t been too weird yet. He did say Grace at Christmas (much to my mother’s joy) but he doesn’t generally want to pray or go to church etc. If he asks about God or heaven or whatever- I can answer mostly with what school says (I am not anti-Catholic but am more likely a bit Protestant than Catholic) I don’t mind him having religion as a moral compass but we aren’t practicing.

part of the reason he goes there is it’s RIGHT there. The houses across the street from me back onto school property. And in Ontario- Catholic and public (non religious) are both free. So it was just convenient.

[nelliebelle1197]

3 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

That’s something that is just mind blowing to me. The U.S. is always portrayed as more religious than most other countries-and we seem to have a lot of extremists - but so many other countries seem to be ok with and take for granted that government paid schools can also be  religious schools - which only the most hard-core conservatives advocate for here. Really fascinating the differences! 

In my husband’s country, New Zealand, to receive public funding private schools have to follow national standards. And private schools that serve underserved populations - either learning differences, ethnic/racial minorities or income - get more funding than those that mostly serve higher income or performing  students.

[Mama Mia]

55 minutes ago, Meggo said:

 It hasn’t been too weird yet. He did say Grace at Christmas (much to my mother’s joy) but he doesn’t generally want to pray or go to church etc. If he asks about God or heaven or whatever- I can answer mostly with what school says (I am not anti-Catholic but am more likely a bit Protestant than Catholic) I don’t mind him having religion as a moral compass but we aren’t practicing.

part of the reason he goes there is it’s RIGHT there. The houses across the street from me back onto school property. And in Ontario- Catholic and public (non religious) are both free. So it was just convenient.

Oh for sure, having a school right there makes a HUGE positive difference as far as just daily living, socialization, stress level. I would 100% opt for that if the school was decent. It’s just always surprising to me when people mention religious schools being a common - and free! option. Really, I think in some ways that might be useful in the U.S. 

[nelliebelle1197]

I don’t know what I just did here but I posted jibberish!

Edited December 30, 2021 by nelliebelle1197

[Expectopatronus]

1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

In my husband’s country, New Zealand, to receive public funding private schools have to follow national standards. And private schools that serve underserved populations - either learning differences, ethnic/racial minorities or income - get more funding than those that mostly serve higher income or performing  students.

Now that’s a country with its head on straight. Schools in lower income areas need more resources which requires more funds. School should be about equity not continuing the status quo and teachers should not be putting out thousands of their own dollars to have a stash of granola bars for hungry students, putting books in the classroom library and buying hands-on tools for learners. 

[imokit]

5 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

That’s something that is just mind blowing to me. The U.S. is always portrayed as more religious than most other countries-and we seem to have a lot of extremists - but so many other countries seem to be ok with and take for granted that government paid schools can also be  religious schools - which only the most hard-core conservatives advocate for here. Really fascinating the differences! 

I think the key difference is that our religious schools still have to follow national curriculum and still get inspected.  Children take national exams at 11y, 16y and 18y.   The 16y exams include science which includes evolution.  Schools not teaching "British values" get in trouble.  While our private schools don't have to follow the national curriculum, they still get inspected and would be in trouble for teaching extremism.  In order to get any job you need either GSCEs, A-Levels or an IB (international baccalaureate) all of which involves standardised secular exams.  You don't graduate from high school, you leave with specific qualifications.

Its different from the US where private Christian schools can teach their own non accredited curriculums and make everything fit with their values. Our kids in religious schools are fare more integrated with their peers.

[nelliebelle1197]

2 hours ago, Expectopatronus said:

Now that’s a country with its head on straight. Schools in lower income areas need more resources which requires more funds. School should be about equity not continuing the status quo and teachers should not be putting out thousands of their own dollars to have a stash of granola bars for hungry students, putting books in the classroom library and buying hands-on tools for learners. 

I totally agree. Our niece is in university here and we were just talking about this. One of my SILs is head of a low-income Māori school (and married to a Māori man) in Auckland so this is totally a family issue!

[Meggo]

3 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

Oh for sure, having a school right there makes a HUGE positive difference as far as just daily living, socialization, stress level. I would 100% opt for that if the school was decent. It’s just always surprising to me when people mention religious schools being a common - and free! option. Really, I think in some ways that might be useful in the U.S. 

it’s interesting (and weird) to me as a Yank to have a publicly funded school teaching religion. And it’s ONLY Catholic. There is no Protestant school board etc- so how the Catholics got this- I have NO idea. I did have to sign some paper agreeing to pay my husband $2 a year or something for picking a Catholic school (I guess as the other property owner? No idea) but we laughed about it.

but they are held to the same curriculum standards that the public school down the street is. And teach religion- but things like First Communion prep are being done outside of the school day- and I don’t know why but it works for us.
 

 

[Natalie22]

2 hours ago, Meggo said:

it’s interesting (and weird) to me as a Yank to have a publicly funded school teaching religion. And it’s ONLY Catholic. There is no Protestant school board etc- so how the Catholics got this- I have NO idea. I did have to sign some paper agreeing to pay my husband $2 a year or something for picking a Catholic school (I guess as the other property owner? No idea) but we laughed about it.

but they are held to the same curriculum standards that the public school down the street is. And teach religion- but things like First Communion prep are being done outside of the school day- and I don’t know why but it works for us.
 

 

So it goes back to agreements signed at the beginning of the country and even before that between England and France and their respective colonizers.  It's written into the constitution of the province that catholic education will be allowed to allow for the large minority francophone community to continue to exist.  I believe over time they adapted from french only catholic schools into majority english catholic schools.  I believe that our regular public schools are descended from english protestant schools.  This is still a pretty hot topic and you'll find groups of people who want to discontinue financial support of catholic schools and others who feel strongly for supporting catholic schools.  I believe that the political calculus is that it would look horrible and require amending the constitution of Ontario so that's why it isn't done.

[Meggo]

1 hour ago, Natalie22 said:

So it goes back to agreements signed at the beginning of the country and even before that between England and France and their respective colonizers.  It's written into the constitution of the province that catholic education will be allowed to allow for the large minority francophone community to continue to exist.  I believe over time they adapted from french only catholic schools into majority english catholic schools.  I believe that our regular public schools are descended from english protestant schools.  This is still a pretty hot topic and you'll find groups of people who want to discontinue financial support of catholic schools and others who feel strongly for supporting catholic schools.  I believe that the political calculus is that it would look horrible and require amending the constitution of Ontario so that's why it isn't done.

Awesome! Thanks!! I wonder if that’s why the $2 charge for non Catholic property owner. 
 

[just_ordinary]

5 hours ago, imokit said:

I think the key difference is that our religious schools still have to follow national curriculum and still get inspected.  Children take national exams at 11y, 16y and 18y.   The 16y exams include science which includes evolution.  Schools not teaching "British values" get in trouble.  While our private schools don't have to follow the national curriculum, they still get inspected and would be in trouble for teaching extremism.  In order to get any job you need either GSCEs, A-Levels or an IB (international baccalaureate) all of which involves standardised secular exams.  You don't graduate from high school, you leave with specific qualifications.

Its different from the US where private Christian schools can teach their own non accredited curriculums and make everything fit with their values. Our kids in religious schools are fare more integrated with their peers.

I think another difference is that in many countries religion and faith play a far less prominent role in lives of people. The vast majority of Christians are cultural Christians. They might be christened, confirmed/firmed, married with a service led by a priest/pastor and celebrate Easter and Christmas with maybe going to church. They know certain stories and there are ton of little things in our lives that date back to bible stories or traditions from times when church and religion played a bigger role. But they will not read the bible and pray, or even own on. They won’t go to church and even if they do it somewhat regularly they don’t give a damn about the „rules“. No one cares what the church says about clothes (outside of showing up acceptable in a house of worship, which would include jeans and t-Shirt/jumper) or modesty. About contraception, abortion or evolution. And afasik the CoE, bigger Protestant churches and even the RCC don’t push their agenda in those areas anymore. At least not outside some general statements that no one reads. Most don’t even know the name of the person preaching. Much less their family status. 
The religious schools do often better academically, are open to all faiths or atheists and the religious part is actually pretty small. They follow the official public curriculum. So the fact that they do offer some extra religious classes or activities really is no big thing. They also mostly offer a historical reading of their religion as well, so while you don’t come out as a new faith member just because, you definitely have a profound understanding of the religion. 
For example, I don’t think it hurts people to have a prayer at morning assembly any more than having to pledge allegiance. But even prayers are not necessarily part of a religious schools profile and they often offer alternative courses for children from other/non faiths which would be open to everyone (more ethics based for example).

Edited December 30, 2021 by just_ordinary

[Jigsaw3]

@Natalie22 is correct. Where I am in Ontario, parents choose between 4 publicly-funded school boards: public (secular) English, public French, separate (Catholic) English or separate French. Each school board teaches the same provincial curriculum, although the Catholic boards teach religion as well -- their grade 11 course is the same World Religions course that is offered in the public boards, and obviously the French school boards teach everything in French. Children in the English boards can do French immersion, where a majority of courses are taught in French with the aim of producing bilingual students.

Obviously there's a huge duplication of resources, but due to the aforementioned compacts it would be very hard to get rid of all of the overlap. French children have the right to an education in their first language (langue maternelle), which I support, and having French school boards provides that.  I am less thrilled about the Catholic boards. But interestingly, many new Canadian families of Muslim faith choose to put their children in the Catholic boards, I guess for the theoretically-more "faith-based" education?

Private schools offer the same Ontario curriculum in order to have their students graduate with an Ontario Secondary School Diploma, but will have smaller classes or support learning disabilities or have a specific faith-based orientation. Some offer the IB, but usually those schools manage it so that students also get the Ontario diploma.

[Expectopatronus]

5 hours ago, Natalie22 said:

So it goes back to agreements signed at the beginning of the country and even before that between England and France and their respective colonizers.  It's written into the constitution of the province that catholic education will be allowed to allow for the large minority francophone community to continue to exist.  I believe over time they adapted from french only catholic schools into majority english catholic schools.  I believe that our regular public schools are descended from english protestant schools.  This is still a pretty hot topic and you'll find groups of people who want to discontinue financial support of catholic schools and others who feel strongly for supporting catholic schools.  I believe that the political calculus is that it would look horrible and require amending the constitution of Ontario so that's why it isn't done.

My province is in contravention of the BNA because in 1870 if you were French Catholic, you were likely Métis so they axed funding to the Catholic schools. When the bilingualism act was passed Francophone, immersion and English schools had to be funded but Catholic schools still only receive 1/3 of the provincial funds granted to public schools. That said, because they receive any public monies they have to teach provincial curriculum (as well as religion). Parents pay tuition to send their kids to Catholic schools but many kids are on bursary. My sister pays $500 a year to send my niece to Catholic school. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

On 12/30/2021 at 12:06 PM, imokit said:

Schools not teaching "British values" get in trouble. 

And those are what? 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

5 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

And those are what? 

Imperialism? Racism? Tea and literature?

Edited December 31, 2021 by Father Son Holy Goat

[Bad Wolf]

3 hours ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

Imperialism? Racism? Tea and literature?

Definitely tea, toast with Marmite, and Christmas cake, to name a few.

[imokit]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

Definitely tea, toast with Marmite, and Christmas cake, to name a few.

That!

But officially multiculturalism & tolerance (i think).  Ie - a Muslim school got in trouble for a textbook showing hands being chopped off as part of a legitimate criminal justice system.  A couple of religious schools (muslim and christian) have been in trouble for not giving equal opportunities to girls (in mixed schools, single sex schools are allowed, but if you're mixed you need to properly mixed) and treating female teachers differently to male teachers.

They all have to follow national curriculum as well and that includes acknowledging multiple faiths exist and evolution and science.

[sixcatatty]

On 12/26/2021 at 10:09 PM, Mama Mia said:

For real. My kid and I were remarking how sweet it was that her two tween kids were singing Deck the Halls together. Until they came in and sang us their kid version they got from friends or YouTube or wherever kids get songs —-it was not sweet, and involved a lot of threats of violence towards Santa and houses on fire. But at least they were getting along lol. 

Then there's

Jingle bells, Batman smells

Robin laid an egg

The Batmobile lost its wheels

And I can't remember this line....

[dawbs]

30 minutes ago, sixcatatty said:

Then there's

Jingle bells, Batman smells

Robin laid an egg

The Batmobile lost its wheels

And I can't remember this line....

ANd Joker ran away.
Or
ANd Joker said "oy Vey!"

 

[Expectopatronus]

2 hours ago, sixcatatty said:

Then there's

Jingle bells, Batman smells

Robin laid an egg

The Batmobile lost its wheels

And I can't remember this line....

We sang it as”and Joker took ballet”

[DMouse007]

7 hours ago, dawbs said:

ANd Joker ran away.
Or
ANd Joker said "oy Vey!"

 

In my house, and more widely from their school, it is "Uncle Billy lost his willy on the motorway".

[GreenBeans]

On 12/30/2021 at 11:24 PM, just_ordinary said:

I think another difference is that in many countries religion and faith play a far less prominent role in lives of people. The vast majority of Christians are cultural Christians. They might be christened, confirmed/firmed, married with a service led by a priest/pastor and celebrate Easter and Christmas with maybe going to church. They know certain stories and there are ton of little things in our lives that date back to bible stories or traditions from times when church and religion played a bigger role. But they will not read the bible and pray, or even own on. They won’t go to church and even if they do it somewhat regularly they don’t give a damn about the „rules“. No one cares what the church says about clothes (outside of showing up acceptable in a house of worship, which would include jeans and t-Shirt/jumper) or modesty. About contraception, abortion or evolution. And afasik the CoE, bigger Protestant churches and even the RCC don’t push their agenda in those areas anymore. At least not outside some general statements that no one reads. Most don’t even know the name of the person preaching. Much less their family status. 
The religious schools do often better academically, are open to all faiths or atheists and the religious part is actually pretty small. They follow the official public curriculum. So the fact that they do offer some extra religious classes or activities really is no big thing. They also mostly offer a historical reading of their religion as well, so while you don’t come out as a new faith member just because, you definitely have a profound understanding of the religion. 
For example, I don’t think it hurts people to have a prayer at morning assembly any more than having to pledge allegiance. But even prayers are not necessarily part of a religious schools profile and they often offer alternative courses for children from other/non faiths which would be open to everyone (more ethics based for example).

This! 

I went to public school, and we did have “religion” as a subject (either catholic or protestant, but I think parents could either opt out or those kids went to an “ethics” class instead). You did not have to be baptized or believe in God to attend religion class of either denomination, I think.

I went to protestant religion class, and as @just_ordinary said, it just wasn’t that big of a deal. We did learn about the bible, to some extent, but we also learned about different religions, how religions developed historically, and critical thinking was much encouraged. For example, we were encouraged to discuss how many stories in the bible can not be taken literally, how to interpret texts taking into account the historical and cultural context at the time and place they were written, to discover parallels between different religions (eg certain concepts and historic backgrounds in the bible and the Quran), discussing philosophical principles (eg free will vs an omnipotent god) etc… There is no way any teacher would ever have claimed that the earth was only 5000 years old, or otherwise argued that the bible should be taken literally, no teaching of no sex before marriage either. Faith and religion on the one hand and science on the other just weren’t seen as contradictory, but rather as complementary. 

So yes, we did have religion as a subject in a public school, but it was entirely different from what fundie Americans would like to establish in US schools.