Meghan and Harry 7: Recollections May Vary

[EmCatlyn]

40 minutes ago, MomJeans said:

In truth, though the Queen sees it differently because of her father's ill health, Edward's abdication saved the monarchy.

If Edward had remained King, with his pro-Nazi feelings and pro-Nazi mistress, the monarchy would not have survived WWII.  (I know, speculation, but I stand by it.)

(I don't really see Meghan as a Wallis- Meghan had a very specific agenda from early on, while I think Wallis just enjoyed having an affair with a royal at first.  I really do think Meghan and Harry could have stepped back without hurting William, Kate and Charles.)

We can’t know whether, if he had remained king, Edward would have continued pro-Nazi once the Nazis started conquering big chunks of Europe. A lot of people who liked the Nazis at a distance didn’t like the idea of Hitler and the German Nazis taking over England.  Possibly, if he had done “his duty” and broken with Wallis and married someone else, Edward would have been anti-Nazi when it counted.  Whether Edward would have had the good sense and leadership of George (who refused to leave London during the Blitz, for example) is another matter.  In any case Edward did abdicate and it was probably good for England as well as the monarchy.

As for Meghan, I don’t think she had an agenda initially.  I think she was attracted to Harry in part because of his position, but I don’t think she was any different from Wallis in this.  Of course, once Harry started talking marriage and it seemed a possibility, she liked the idea not only for Harry’s sake but because of the status she would gain.

Some people say that she always meant to move back to America, but I don’t think so.  I think she probably began to make plans to go back when she became so unhappy during her pregnancy.  Initially she seemed to be ready to commit to life in England as part of the Royal Family.

I suppose you could say that “making Meghan important” is an agenda, though, so in that sense she did have one. ?

[MomJeans]

In the 1950's, Edward was quoted as blaming Jews for World War II.  

He abdicated less than three years before the U.K. entered the war, so as King he was fully briefed on the inner workings of the Nazi government.  After abdication he leaked classified information to German officials that the U.S. had Germany's French invasion plans. 

Edward's pro-Nazi beliefs were enthusiastic before, during, and after World War II.   Immediately after the war he tried to walk back his support of Hitler.  (After Germany lost.  Not during the war, when his former subjects were dying in combat and from German bombings.  But he was upset about dealing with wartime rations in Bermuda, and complained bitterly about them.)  But by the 1950's he was back to privately telling acquaintances that Hitler wasn't that bad, and the war was the Jews' fault.  

I just can't see someone like that being so radically changed by the power of true love, a younger brother's example, or something else, before the U.K. entered the war.  I think his legacy has greatly benefitted from the royal family and U.K. government hiding further damaging information on his behalf, and to also protect the memory of Queen Mary. Personally, I think it was so much worse than we know.

 

 

[just_ordinary]

32 minutes ago, MomJeans said:

In the 1950's, Edward was quoted as blaming Jews for World War II.  

He abdicated less than three years before the U.K. entered the war, so as King he was fully briefed on the inner workings of the Nazi government.  After abdication he leaked classified information to German officials that the U.S. had Germany's French invasion plans. 

Edward's pro-Nazi beliefs were enthusiastic before, during, and after World War II.   Immediately after the war he tried to walk back his support of Hitler.  (After Germany lost.  Not during the war, when his former subjects were dying in combat and from German bombings.  But he was upset about dealing with wartime rations in Bermuda, and complained bitterly about them.)  But by the 1950's he was back to privately telling acquaintances that Hitler wasn't that bad, and the war was the Jews' fault.  

I just can't see someone like that being so radically changed by the power of true love, a younger brother's example, or something else, before the U.K. entered the war.  I think his legacy has greatly benefitted from the royal family and U.K. government hiding further damaging information on his behalf, and to also protect the memory of Queen Mary. Personally, I think it was so much worse than we know.

 

 

Oh I don’t think Edward would have had a big awakening just like that. But even then, the government decided on what side the UK was going to sit- not the monarch. He would have had to follow or risk a constitutional crisis that would have ended in his removal. But in the end, the UK didn’t actively join a side in the war till 1939 when George VI. was already king. Chamberlain became Prime Minister and tried an appeasement policy regarding Nazi Germany for some time and King George VI. supported his Prime Minister as it was his job, no matter what he personally might have thought. 

[EmCatlyn]

3 hours ago, MomJeans said:

In the 1950's, Edward was quoted as blaming Jews for World War II.  

He abdicated less than three years before the U.K. entered the war, so as King he was fully briefed on the inner workings of the Nazi government.  After abdication he leaked classified information to German officials that the U.S. had Germany's French invasion plans. 

Edward's pro-Nazi beliefs were enthusiastic before, during, and after World War II.   Immediately after the war he tried to walk back his support of Hitler.  (After Germany lost.  Not during the war, when his former subjects were dying in combat and from German bombings.  But he was upset about dealing with wartime rations in Bermuda, and complained bitterly about them.)  But by the 1950's he was back to privately telling acquaintances that Hitler wasn't that bad, and the war was the Jews' fault.  

I just can't see someone like that being so radically changed by the power of true love, a younger brother's example, or something else, before the U.K. entered the war.  I think his legacy has greatly benefitted from the royal family and U.K. government hiding further damaging information on his behalf, and to also protect the memory of Queen Mary. Personally, I think it was so much worse than we know.

Most of what we know of Edward’s pro-Nazi behavior (leaking classified information, for example) is from after the abdication.  Earlier he certainly praised Hitler, but he was not alone in his enthusiasm for Hitler and most Britons who had liked Hitler at first changed their minds when they saw him as a threat to the country.  I think if Edward had not had Wallis (whose Nazi connections seem to have been strong) and remained king he might have become anti-Nazi when it became clear that Hitler wanted to control all of Europe (for starters).  But that’s just speculation. ??‍♀️

From what I gather, Edward regretted having abdicated and resented that he was forced to do so.  He was angry, and the Germans played on this.  A major reason he was sent off to Bermuda by the British was to get him where he could not do much harm. There was concern about a plot by Hitler to return him to the throne as part of Hitler’s conquest of England.  His saying in the 1950s that Hitler wasn’t such a bad chap reminds me of his great-nephew’s difficulty seeing what was so bad about Epstein. ?

Anyway, I think the important point is that when you talk about entitled, self-centered, easily-led, and not-terribly-bright princes, Harry is hardly the first. ?

Harry does seem to be a more decent person than Edward and Andrew.

Edited August 5, 2021 by EmCatlyn
Fix spelling and clarify something.

[tabitha2]

Harry is very similar to his great uncle:Darling of the public, dashing, not that bright, massive parental issues, selfish, impulsive  ETC.Will he end up just as bitter, regretful  and having just as useless and wasted life with a family who wants nothing to do with him who can tell. 
 

I suppose two Kids and an actual source of income might be the difference but those things are no guarantees by a long shot. 

[louisa05]

11 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

We can’t know whether, if he had remained king, Edward would have continued pro-Nazi once the Nazis started conquering big chunks of Europe. A lot of people who liked the Nazis at a distance didn’t like the idea of Hitler and the German Nazis taking over England.  Possibly, if he had done “his duty” and broken with Wallis and married someone else, Edward would have been anti-Nazi when it counted.  Whether Edward would have had the good sense and leadership of George (who refused to leave London during the Blitz, for example) is another matter.  In any case Edward did abdicate and it was probably good for England as well as the monarchy.

As for Meghan, I don’t think she had an agenda initially.  I think she was attracted to Harry in part because of his position, but I don’t think she was any different from Wallis in this.  Of course, once Harry started talking marriage and it seemed a possibility, she liked the idea not only for Harry’s sake but because of the status she would gain.

Some people say that she always meant to move back to America, but I don’t think so.  I think she probably began to make plans to go back when she became so unhappy during her pregnancy.  Initially she seemed to be ready to commit to life in England as part of the Royal Family.

I suppose you could say that “making Meghan important” is an agenda, though, so in that sense she did have one. ?

It’s recently been leaked that they started pursuing Hollywood deals in 2018. So I think it was the plan all along. The media stuff was their excuse. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by louisa05

[viii]

4 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

Harry is very similar to his great uncle:Darling of the public, dashing, not that bright, massive parental issues, selfish, impulsive  ETC.Will he end up just as bitter, regretful  and having just as useless and wasted life with a family who wants nothing to do with him who can tell. 
 

I suppose two Kids and an actual source of income might be the difference but those things are no guarantees by a long shot. 

I know your nonsensical hatred of Harry blinds you to everything else, but comparing Harry to Andrew is ridiculous. 

[tabitha2]

I just thinks it’s Naive to think Meghan fell so madly in love she dropped everything moved to foreign country and into a very Alien  way of living,  working and raising a family without a back up plan if she did not get exactly what she wanted from being a British Royal. She is an operator and as dumb as fox.

 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by tabitha2

[louisa05]

11 minutes ago, viii said:

I know your nonsensical hatred of Harry blinds you to everything else, but comparing Harry to Andrew is ridiculous. 

Andrew is Harry’s uncle not his great uncle. I believe the comparison is to the Duke of Windsor who was his great great uncle (his grandmother’s uncle). If you read the previous posts, that is obvious. 

 

4 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

Harry is very similar to his great uncle:Darling of the public, dashing, not that bright, massive parental issues, selfish, impulsive  ETC.Will he end up just as bitter, regretful  and having just as useless and wasted life with a family who wants nothing to do with him who can tell. 
 

I suppose two Kids and an actual source of income might be the difference but those things are no guarantees by a long shot. 

Let’s not pretend that having kids fixes dysfunctional people. They just become dysfunctional people who have kids. 

[tabitha2]

11 minutes ago, viii said:

I know your nonsensical hatred of Harry blinds you to everything else, but comparing Harry to Andrew is ridiculous. 

Grand Uncle ,dear. Actually great grand uncle As in King Edward VIII. Andrew is his uncle

 

[just_ordinary]

2 hours ago, louisa05 said:

It’s recently been leaked that they started pursuing Hollywood deals in 2018. So I think it was the plan all along. The media stuff was their excuse. 

I am not sure though they wanted to be out. They had probably some ridiculous ideas about how they were going to change their roles and very possible thought in a modern monarchy their positions would be more important/more equal to W&K. I think H had some grounds to believe his role could be different than the usual spare. The young royals had already tried to built a different approach to charity work/campaigns (Heads together) and W&K didn’t seem to keen to work their butt off. This outlook might have opened his mind for Ms grand ideas of celebrity royals and he failed to mention that this was not set in stone yet. I think she was shocked when she realised how much he left out or only just touched on lightly. She should have done her research but in the case of her being not prepared both are pretty much at fault. As we all know, the monarchy has some strict guidelines and grey zones they have to balance to not get abolished by Parliament. So when their plans fell on deaf ears, they got tons of negative coverage and harsh (and sometimes racist) comment sections, and it became clear that the BRF was happy to work with them but that there would be no high profile plan for their children they threw a fit and we all saw how it ended. They tried to force their way and it backfired spectacularly. 

[viii]

1 hour ago, tabitha2 said:

I just thinks it’s Naive to think Meghan fell so madly in love she dropped everything moved to foreign country and into a very Alien  way of living,  working and raising a family without a back up plan if she did not get exactly what she wanted from being a British Royal. She is an operator and as dumb as fox.

 

 

I actually know several people who uprooted their entire lives because of love. I’m not sure why you think Meghan isn’t capable of it. 

1 hour ago, tabitha2 said:

Grand Uncle ,dear. Actually great grand uncle As in King Edward VIII. Andrew is his uncle

 

I like that you responded to me but then once my error was pointed out, you had to reply to me again just to get your two cents in ??????????

[tabitha2]

Seriously? You were the one being rude and insulting me when you didn’t even bother to actually read what I wrote!  Now you trying to start a fight again?  You should apologize to me actually. 
 

You are  being kind of jerk  right now. 

[klein_roeschen]

10 hours ago, MomJeans said:

In the 1950's, Edward was quoted as blaming Jews for World War II.  

He abdicated less than three years before the U.K. entered the war, so as King he was fully briefed on the inner workings of the Nazi government.  After abdication he leaked classified information to German officials that the U.S. had Germany's French invasion plans. 

Edward's pro-Nazi beliefs were enthusiastic before, during, and after World War II.   Immediately after the war he tried to walk back his support of Hitler.  (After Germany lost.  Not during the war, when his former subjects were dying in combat and from German bombings.  But he was upset about dealing with wartime rations in Bermuda, and complained bitterly about them.)  But by the 1950's he was back to privately telling acquaintances that Hitler wasn't that bad, and the war was the Jews' fault.  

I just can't see someone like that being so radically changed by the power of true love, a younger brother's example, or something else, before the U.K. entered the war.  I think his legacy has greatly benefitted from the royal family and U.K. government hiding further damaging information on his behalf, and to also protect the memory of Queen Mary. Personally, I think it was so much worse than we know.

Edward is a prime example for the major downside of any monarchy, in you can't choose the best candite, you are stuck with the first born. He was lucky that he lived in the 20th century, because a lot of unfit monarchs before him couldn't just abdicate and live their lifes as wealthy socialites. They where just killed as a solution to that problem.

As others have said, before the WWII a lot of people found the Nazis great. When they rose to power, the political climate in Germany was very stormy. The democratic foundation of the Weimarer Republic was not very solid and eroded away more and more during that time. There where various political fractions who wanted it gone and they fought openly and violently until the Nazis as one of these fractions got handed the country over on a silver plate and wasted no time to get rid of their enemies to be the only political power. They where seen as the force to clean house and bring back law and order and end the unrest and streetfights. But finding them great before they scorched half of Europe, killed millions of people during that war and esp killed millions of jews and other undesirable groups and ethnicities in concentration camps and still finding them great after that are two very different pairs of shoes and show your nasty true colours.

[EmCatlyn]

6 hours ago, louisa05 said:

It’s recently been leaked that they started pursuing Hollywood deals in 2018. So I think it was the plan all along. The media stuff was their excuse. 

My impression is that Meghan and Harry initially thought they could pursue some of these projects while working within the Royal Family.  If Meghan’s long-term goal was to get Harry to move to California with her, I can’t imagine why she got into the “Full-time Royal” gig in the first place. 

I think she gave royal life a try, didn’t like it, and started looking for ways to tweak her situation so it suited her.  Even then, I think her initial plan was to combine some sort of royal life with projects that let them “shine” and allowed them to pursue more options than just being “the spare and his wife.” 

To be sure, blaming their exit on the media, on the RFs lack of support, etc. is largely an exaggeration to justify themselves.  I just don’t think Meghan came into the RF planning an exit.  

[EmCatlyn]

6 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

I just thinks it’s Naive to think Meghan fell so madly in love she dropped everything moved to foreign country and into a very Alien  way of living,  working and raising a family without a back up plan if she did not get exactly what she wanted from being a British Royal. She is an operator and as dumb as fox.

I don’t think Meghan fell “madly in love” with Harry.  I think she fell “madly in love” with the increase in status that their relationship gave her.  I think he is a pleasant guy, charming, etc. — but for someone like her, part of the turn-on was probably his perceived “celebrity power.”  I don’t think she was necessarily at fault in this.  Most of us fall in love with (or are turned off by) a “package” and being royal was part of Harry’s “package.”

As for uprooting herself and moving to a new country and social level, I have met a number of people who are unable to imagine that they wouldn’t fit in anywhere and/or believe their vision of how to do things “right” is the correct one and will triumph in all circumstances. (My life has made me acquainted with a fair number of expatriates who underestimated how much they needed to adjust and in some cases insisted the new society needed to adjust to them.) Meghan may have thought that she would have the status to set the rules for everyone except maybe Charles and the Queen.

In short, I don’t think Meghan was all starry-eyed about Harry, but I do think she was probably unprepared for what she found. As for a “back up plan,” I think she probably had a range of options in the back of her mind, but I doubt it was a formulated plan or an “agenda.”    

Edited August 5, 2021 by EmCatlyn
Close parenthesis

[QuiverFullofBooks]

How did we get so far into this without me realizing that Meghan has the same birthday as the Queen Mother? I wonder if the royals (mainly Charles) are sufficiently into astrology that they found that reassuring. They’re quite a bit alike -superficially nice, but very strong-willed and rather selfish.

[Four is Enough]

On 8/4/2021 at 1:47 PM, EmCatlyn said:

.  They weren’t pushed out. Wallis did not want Edward to abdicate and would have not married him at this point if it hadn’t been that it would make her look bad. But that’s another subject.)

I believe Wallis wanted to be the power behind the throne, no matter what form it took. She'd have been Queen if Edward could have swung it. She'd happily have been his mistress in a Diane de Poitiers sort of way..  she wanted power and influence, and money.

On 8/4/2021 at 3:13 PM, tabitha2 said:

Wallis did try to step away, break up a couple of times for the good  of ,well, Everybody.She knew it was no win situation for her and his family would never allow it But he turned on the manipulative emotional black mail .His obsession and need for her was total. 

And that is how Wallis operated Edward. He, like Harry, was a weak unit, a puppet on a string, and Wallis knew exactly how to make him her pawn. She said she'd step away, knowing that Edward would throw a royal fit. She absolutely counted on him chipping away at the power of the Parliament, and her getting what she wanted. What Wallis didn't count on, I believe, was the absolutely implacable hatred borne against her by the Queen Mother, George's wife. She could in no way weasel herself into the BRF.

 

AFA the German connection? I believe that if Edward had stayed on the throne, England would look much different today.

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, Four is Enough said:

I believe Wallis wanted to be the power behind the throne, no matter what form it took. She'd have been Queen if Edward could have swung it. She'd happily have been his mistress in a Diane de Poitiers sort of way..  she wanted power and influence, and money.

And that is how Wallis operated Edward. He, like Harry, was a weak unit, a puppet on a string, and Wallis knew exactly how to make him her pawn. She said she'd step away, knowing that Edward would throw a royal fit. She absolutely counted on him chipping away at the power of the Parliament, and her getting what she wanted. What Wallis didn't count on, I believe, was the absolutely implacable hatred borne against her by the Queen Mother, George's wife. She could in no way weasel herself into the BRF.

 

AFA the German connection? I believe that if Edward had stayed on the throne, England would look much different today.

I think that the last thing Wallis wanted was for Edward to abdicate.  Once he abdicated, she was stuck: they had no real wealth, no power, very limited influence —but she couldn’t break it off without looking bad.  I do believe she would have loved it if Hitler had conquered England and put them on the throne.

For what it’s worth, if there had been no Wallis, Edward might have made a mediocre but acceptable king in spite of his original admiration for the Nazis.  We can’t know for sure, but just as his father had repudiated their German connections during WWI, Edward might have found that there is a difference between admiring Hitler and allowing Hitler to make his country a vassal state.  However, since there was Wallis and he abdicated, he was clearly more than happy to play with the Nazis, especially since they flattered him and may have promised him things.

The Queen Mother did indeed hate Wallis, and she certainly prevented the acceptance of Edward back into the family as time passed, but I am not sure that anything she did affected the Duke and Duchess of Windsor’s access to power. Maybe they would have had more influence if they had been “received” back in England (instead of quietly paid to stay away). In general, however, I think they would have been largely shut out from power even if the QM hadn’t been so implacable.

 

[Four is Enough]

5 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

The Queen Mother did indeed hate Wallis, and she certainly prevented the acceptance of Edward back into the family as time passed, but I am not sure that anything she did affected the Duke and Duchess of Windsor’s access to power. Maybe they would have had more influence if they had been “received” back in England (instead of quietly paid to stay away). In general, however, I think they would have been largely shut out from power even if the QM hadn’t been so implacable.

Actually, that's what I meant but didn't say well.. that QM kept them from having influence. What a family...

[SoSoNosy]

I read somewhere that Wallis didn't want to marry Edward; she wanted him to be on the throne, and she would be his mistress and be able to influence him.  The article said she was bitter about it for the rest of her life.

[just_ordinary]

15 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

Actually, that's what I meant but didn't say well.. that QM kept them from having influence. What a family...

Right? If you only educate yourself a little bit of the history of the country you are moving to, you are going to represent, the family you are marrying into…. just say only the last 100 years… and you come out of it thinking Queenie will give you a kiss on the cheek, Camilla offering you tea and Kate giving you a hug and than you all nibble biscuits and watch The Great British Bake Off together… you didn’t do your homework. And yes, H obviously didn’t think to prepare her properly for a family that had completely neglected him. It looks as if he prepared her for the family HE never had. 

I am not against quick marriages and starting a family straight at your wedding night (or before- don’t want to give the wrong impression) but I do think this marriage is strained. At the moment they have a common enemy but jumping from LONG distance to marriage, adjusting to a new country, pregnancy, depressing, suicidal episodes, breaks downs, permanent criticism and racist abuse (I don’t see it in the articles but boy some SM and comment sections were really showing the ugly face of humanity), family relationships turning sour, breaking with your father, trying to half quit the family business only to be kicked out, adjusting to a new country, finding a new life purpose, putting massive pressure on yourself with a insanely expensive house and contracts that have yet to be fulfilled, a second baby, selling your life story and your family out in public…..

all of that in 4 years? I think only a long couples and individual therapies can keep that going another 5 years. The second they don’t get their massive headlines anymore and the pressure of normal life gets their focus they might find out they are not as compatible as they think. Let’s hope everything that the future brings will go ok and the children will be fine. I still hope that they see the light, stop talking about the BRF, make their friends and mouthpieces stop doing so and actually produce the content they promised with their websites and contracts. Giving unheard voices a stage, support charities (Hubb was fantastic), make educational content for Netflix….. that has real merit. Much more than H‘a sob life story or a lifestyle/self help book by M. 

Edited August 7, 2021 by just_ordinary

[WiseGirl]

8 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

I still hope that they see the light, stop talking about the BRF, make their friends and mouthpieces stop doing so and actually produce the content they promised with their websites and contracts. 

This! A thousand times this! The proof is in the pudding. 

[viii]

I wonder what would happen if they did split. Would Harry go back home to England? Would he retract everything he’s said? Would Meghan turn on him? It’d be interesting to watch. 

[EmCatlyn]

18 hours ago, Four is Enough said:

Actually, that's what I meant but didn't say well.. that QM kept them from having influence. What a family...

It’s actually no crazier than a lot of other families, they’re just more visible. 😉

I blame the QM for a lot of things (especially for the way “Crawfie” —Miss Crawford, the Princesses’ governess— was treated in the end.)   However, I blame her least for her dislike of Wallis and her determination to keep Edward and Wallis away after the abdication.  The abdication put her family in the cross hairs, and although she genuinely enjoyed being queen, she also felt the burden on her family was not what she had signed up for.  From her perspective, Wallis came in and selfishly made a mess of things for everyone.