Josiah & Lauren 17: Proud parents to Lauren's hat...and Bella

[Jana814]

14 minutes ago, Sullie06 said:

 

My sister and her husband were high school sweethearts as well. They had no intention of getting married. They had two children before they did. Then they started a business and realized it would be much easier if they were married so a couple years ago they just went down to the court house, with just two friends, and tied the knot. 

Your sister is like my cousin & his wife. They had been together for years had their older son but didn’t get married till she was pregnant with their second son & just went down to a courthouse to get married. 

[lumpentheologie]

On 9/17/2020 at 6:21 PM, Mama Mia said:

So interesting reading everyone’s different experiences and takes on marriage/childbearing ages! 

My family doesn’t do long term marriage well as a rule. Something sadly generational it seems. Bad communication skills? Poor impulse control?  Lack of role models? Willingness to move on if things aren’t right? General atmosphere of not considering marriage necessarily permanent? A combination? I really don’t know. 

I know everyone goes into it with high hopes of course and expecting until death do you part - and tries to work through things - but damn, we have a bad track record. And that seems regardless of age at marriage, length of time together first, etc.... Great grandma who got married a ton of times. One set of grandparents who were married multiple times - same with both my exes. My Parents ( born in the 40’s) and exeses parents ( born in the late 30’s )  - also multiple marriages / relationships.
My generation ( born in the 60’s ) divorces and / or multiple relationships w various kids. 1 - ONE! stable long term one time marriage with just their own kids out of the half dozen family members in my generation I can think of . 

My kids generation so far ( born ‘80-‘90) includes one stable long time marriage w kids, 3 divorces w kids, 1 long term stable relationship ( no marriage ) w kids, 1 very nice 2 nd marriage, 3 no marriage or kids yet. Their cousins And friends are along similar lines. 
 

Also, is getting married before you have the kids seen as a vital step where you are? Here it seems to be about 50/50 which comes 1st ( or at all ) . 
 

 

This is great thread drift. I'd also be interested in hearing people's takes on divorce in their social circles and having kids before/after marriage. 

I think one of the reasons I got married on the older side is because divorce would still be such a scandal in my Catholic family. My family is kind of the opposite of @Mama Mia's. They really do not approve of divorce and talk a lot about how Jesus hates it. My grandparents were all married their whole lives, and my parents and their siblings too, except for one aunt who takes pains to remind people that her marriage was annulled (not divorce!!) in the 70s because she discovered her husband was bisexual. ?  Of the 17 of us in the cousin generation, the vast majority are married and only two have been divorced (both men). For one it was a big scandal in the family and the other one was so scared to get divorced he lived separately from his wife and supported her and their son for about 9 years before actually getting a divorce. I think it would be even more of a scandal for a female cousin. (To illustrate just how serious this is: husband and I have an open marriage and while my extended family doesn't know, if they found out I think they would take it way better than a divorce). 

For me and most of the people I know, marriage is necessary before kids. I know a lot of couples who had lived together for years and got married once they wanted to have children. I think for most of us it's not a religious thing but about legal protections for the woman and children. Although it would be a scandal in my Catholic family if anyone got pregnant (or even worse had the child) without being married.  They do accept living together without marriage and abortion, though, so they're not that conservative. 

One of the biggest differences I've seen here in Germany is that most people seem to get married only after having kids. I think that's in part because people aren't religious and in part because the legal protections of marriage don't matter as much here -- there's no alimony, and everyone has health insurance and a right to their own apartment and welfare income if they don't have any money. And having children is much less expensive than in the US. So my husband and his friends think I'm conservative for expecting marriage before children. 

I agree with everyone saying generic marriage advice isn't very helpful. Every couple is so different. My best friend and I have pretty much constantly turned to each other for relationship advice during our 18-year friendship, but the only other person I ask for advice is my therapist (who always takes my husband's side, lol). 

 

[IReallyAmHopewell]

What is the deal with the hat?? She's still wearing the stupid thing in the S12/ep 11. I get it that she's a teenager [bascially] but wtaf?

[clueliss]

Maybe she really likes/loves the hat and doesn't care what fans/haters think of it?

[viii]

I feel like we need to lay off the hat. This board is supposed to encourage these young girls that are trapped in such a toxic religion to find themselves, to free themselves and make their own choices, but the moment one of them steps out of line and doesn't conform, we criticize her. Lauren clearly loves her hats, it's probably a way she finds confidence and identity, and railing on it constantly just seems the opposite of what this board is supposed to be about. 

[Bluebirdbluebell]

Yeah I agree Lauren should wear the hat if it makes her happy.

Even the title of this thread bothers me, Bella is clearly loved and appreciated (based on social media picks). It's not wearing a hat interferes with your ability to parent. 

There's fair bit of misogyny to it all, including in the thread title. 

[OrchidBlossom]

I find Lauren's obsession with hats kind of funny, but in a lighthearted way. I was obsessed with heels around her age, no matter how impractical, and I owned dozens of pairs. A little before that in high school, I loved band tees. In my mid 20s, I got super into athletic-wear. Nothing wrong with diving in on a trend you enjoy. So I was reading the thread title in that sort of playful way that I often talk about my old shoe collection (I've pared down quite a bit since then). However, I do agree that in this thread, things get awfully heated about her choice of headwear.

[AussieKrissy]

Next thread title “lay off the hats”. Lol don’t know if that’s just an Aussie thing but it means “leave the hats alone.” A reminder to us. 

[Not that josh's mom]

I'm not a hat wearer. In fact I dont ever put anything on my head - hood, scarf, cap or hat. But I do question wearing a hat in the house. Do women really do that? Why? No criticism. Just a sincere question.

[Daisy0322]

6 hours ago, viii said:

I feel like we need to lay off the hat. This board is supposed to encourage these young girls that are trapped in such a toxic religion to find themselves, to free themselves and make their own choices, but the moment one of them steps out of line and doesn't conform, we criticize her. Lauren clearly loves her hats, it's probably a way she finds confidence and identity, and railing on it constantly just seems the opposite of what this board is supposed to be about. 

While I am not a hat person I agree. It’s not that big of a deal. I think it’s odd to wear such a large hat inside and it would be cumbersome but the hats are NOT HURTING ANYONE, their beliefs are. I do think they love Bella and they are both very young with a long road ahead of them. I hope watching their child grow softens them some and sheds light on the cult to them. A lot of their political stances I disagree with but I don’t claim to know everything, they can have their opinions. The extremism and harshness of fundamentalism and the abuse that they may not even realize they were victim to and could inflict on their child(ren) is what I think is the real issue. 

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

I want to know when we got to St. Lauren? I must have missed that memo, I still find her annoying, hat or no hat. 

As for marriage advice, DH & I celebrated 24 years on Monday, I'm not keen on giving advice even when asked. I generally say everyone is different, just talk when you're upset, your SO isn't a mind reader, and listen when they talk think about how you want them to listen to you and do that, and remember to still date each other after you have kids. 

As for being married before kids, in my family it is a big deal, and for my area it is still a big deal, but once you get outside of my ultra conservative county and family, others are much more what ever. Personally 25 years ago I would have said YES you should be married 1st, now I think as long as you are either in a position to do it on your own emotionally & financially, or make sure you are in a good enough relationship that you two can co parent well. Of course if you are fortunate enough to get pregnant only when you plan it. 

[seraaa]

21 hours ago, viii said:

I feel like we need to lay off the hat. This board is supposed to encourage these young girls that are trapped in such a toxic religion to find themselves, to free themselves and make their own choices, but the moment one of them steps out of line and doesn't conform, we criticize her. Lauren clearly loves her hats, it's probably a way she finds confidence and identity, and railing on it constantly just seems the opposite of what this board is supposed to be about. 

I agree. She's in her early 20s, let her have her hat phase!

[WarriorJane]

I think Lauren probably wore her hat on the zoom call because she wanted to be a little dressed up.  Though I'm sure they are not properly social distancing, I doubt they're going to many events these days and she might just feel like putting on nicer clothes once in a while.  I have a coworker who puts on a blouse and pearls everyday just to feel more like she's at work.   Me, after 6 months of WFH I'm in a tshirt everyday.   I'm lucky I throw on a bra most days.   

[TheRadleyPorch]

I think people dislike Lauren more than the average fundy wife because people tend to react negatively to those who are kind of immature and try-hard-y and attention seeking, the same reason immature, attention seeking kids get bullied in school. And I think we should monitor and be critical of that reaction in ourselves (I react that way sometimes, too!) Lauren is very young and, pretty typical for someone who is very young and more on the immature side, she very much wants to be perceived as mature and womanly, which makes her act kind of pretentious and awkward. I also have a hunch that Lauren sort of wants to be seen as sexy (again, very normal for a 20 year old woman) but obviously doesn't have a way to express this. I think if Lauren were like, a secular college student, she would be the kind who carries around books that make her look smart and cool and dresses in kind of a sexy hipster way that's engineered to look effortless and likes to talk about how "comfortable with her sexuality" she is and that she's a "very sexual person" and stuff like that. And that would be kind of eye roll-y but totally developmentally normal and she would eventually grow out of it. Because she is a fundy, she expresses that need for approval and validation in different ways but I think it's pretty much fits that pattern. And hopefully she will eventually grow out of it, although it might be harder since her emotional maturation has been completely stunted by her upbringing. Either way, I think we could be a little more charitable about it.

[adidas]

I don’t care whether or not she wears a hat and I think a better focus could be on other aspects of their lifestyle. But at the same time, I honestly don’t think that wearing a hat means she is trying to free herself, that she is stepping out of line or that she is refusing to conform. 

[fundiesarefascinating]

I've often thought that Lauren would have fit in really well with the Bates family. She strikes me like she would love to be part of Josie's make-up/hair team or modelling with the Bates Boutique. I could have also seen her getting into a small fundie interior design or staging business with Whitney or Erin. And while I have no idea what happens behind closed doors, the Bates present their older daughters/siblings as close, fun, supportive and their lives are quite exciting with some limited opportunities to work. In contrast, the Older Duggar siblings don't have that same presentation of easy connection or fun. I imagine that instagram and social media access has become a bit of a double edge sword for 2nd Gen fundies, so Lauren can see that this is possible and is something she could have had/is missing out on. In response she does what she can (hats, make up Q&A, house tours) to fit in and feel like she belongs to that world too. It could also serve to help ease feelings of resentment, sadness etc over what her daily life is really like compared to what she sees presented on other fundie wives instagrams. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

3 hours ago, fundiesarefascinating said:

I've often thought that Lauren would have fit in really well with the Bates family. She strikes me like she would love to be part of Josie's make-up/hair team or modelling with the Bates Boutique. I could have also seen her getting into a small fundie interior design or staging business with Whitney or Erin. And while I have no idea what happens behind closed doors, the Bates present their older daughters/siblings as close, fun, supportive and their lives are quite exciting with some limited opportunities to work. In contrast, the Older Duggar siblings don't have that same presentation of easy connection or fun. I imagine that instagram and social media access has become a bit of a double edge sword for 2nd Gen fundies, so Lauren can see that this is possible and is something she could have had/is missing out on. In response she does what she can (hats, make up Q&A, house tours) to fit in and feel like she belongs to that world too. It could also serve to help ease feelings of resentment, sadness etc over what her daily life is really like compared to what she sees presented on other fundie wives instagrams. 

I get your point about the Bates ladies, but damn, that family is loud. Decibels louder than the Duggars. Lauren appears to really need her quiet time, and I don’t think she would like being with the whole family.

[patsymae]

On 9/23/2020 at 7:29 PM, Not that josh's mom said:

I'm not a hat wearer. In fact I dont ever put anything on my head - hood, scarf, cap or hat. But I do question wearing a hat in the house. Do women really do that? Why? No criticism. Just a sincere question.

The ones who feel like it do.

[libgirl2]

On 9/25/2020 at 4:56 PM, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I get your point about the Bates ladies, but damn, that family is loud. Decibels louder than the Duggars. Lauren appears to really need her quiet time, and I don’t think she would like being with the whole family.

I don't think Lauren likes things to be too disorganized either. 

[Marly]

On 9/21/2020 at 9:05 PM, lumpentheologie said:

One of the biggest differences I've seen here in Germany is that most people seem to get married only after having kids. I think that's in part because people aren't religious and in part because the legal protections of marriage don't matter as much here -- there's no alimony, and everyone has health insurance and a right to their own apartment and welfare income if they don't have any money. And having children is much less expensive than in the US. So my husband and his friends think I'm conservative for expecting marriage before children. 

 

I would say it is the same here in the Netherlands. People don't necessarily get married before they have kids.
Also, people don't tend to get married young. The average age for women to get married here is 31 and for men 34. (The exceptions are fundamentalist religious people, who tend to get married young). 
Usually people have lived together for a long, long time before they get married. A lot of people that don't get married get some kind of domestic partnership when they get older and have been together for a while. 

I would say living together before getting married or without being married is definitely the norm. This is also what I considered normal, and is why I was so surprised when I heard people say that "marriage takes a lot of work! It can be really difficult!". To me, that doesn't have anything to do with marriage, but with relationships in general. I got married last March, on my and my SO's 8 year anniversary. Exactly NOTHING has changed for us. We had already been living together for 5 years, and we stayed in the same appartment we had already been living in. Our relationship did not magically change because we got married. The only thing that has changed is that we will now receive tax benefits, and if anything were to happen to my husband (he has T1D) I am the person who will be called and who will be allowed to be with him in the hospital. That's it. 

It is also quite normal here for women to keep their own name after marriage, and it is becoming more normal (as in, no longer taboo and you won't be laughed at) for men to hyphenate their last name when they get married (which my SO and I have done), though the latter is still not very common.

Divorce is also not taboo, except for fundamentalist religious people, but they are in the minority.
 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Marly

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

Throwing a curve ball on the thread drift...

My husband and I were friends for several years, then started dating, then got engaged, then got married, then got pregnant, then...moved in together, just as I was approaching my due date! Many people can't wrap their heads around this. It's quite simple, really. We were older when we married (mid 30s and late 40s) and had our independent, established lives in different cities, So for a few years, we maintained "two households". I missed him when we were apart, but also enjoyed my moments of quiet solitude. Throwing a kid into the mix was what finally made us resolve to consolidate households permanently - I could easily see that, had my son not been in the picture, we might have continued to maintain two households for a few more years. 

We have now been living together for 3 years, and it's quite nice  

Edited September 30, 2020 by Shouldabeenacowboy

[OrchidBlossom]

33 minutes ago, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

Throwing a curve ball on the thread drift...

My husband and I were friends for several years, then started dating, then got engaged, then got married, then got pregnant, then...moved in together, just as I was approaching my due date! Many people can't wrap their heads around this. It's quite simple, really. We were older when we married (mid 30s and late 40s) and had our independent, established lives in different cities, So for a few years, we maintained "two households". I missed him when we were apart, but also enjoyed my moments of quiet solitude. Throwing a kid into the mix was what finally made us resolve to consolidate households permanently - I could easily see that, had my son not been in the picture, we might have continued to maintain two households for a few more years. 

We have now been living together for 3 years, and it's quite nice  

That's so interesting! Due to lease timings, my fiancé and I have never technically officially lived together. We were on lockdown together for like 5 or 6 months and spent a lot of our time at one place or the other together prior to that, but technically have maintained separate apartments. We have a shared apartment now, but he hasn't moved in yet. 

 

Still I figure if I can love him after 5 months of never leaving each other's sight in a studio apartment during lockdown, I know he's the one.

[baldricks_turnip]

2 hours ago, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

Throwing a curve ball on the thread drift...

My husband and I were friends for several years, then started dating, then got engaged, then got married, then got pregnant, then...moved in together, just as I was approaching my due date! Many people can't wrap their heads around this. It's quite simple, really. We were older when we married (mid 30s and late 40s) and had our independent, established lives in different cities, So for a few years, we maintained "two households". I missed him when we were apart, but also enjoyed my moments of quiet solitude. Throwing a kid into the mix was what finally made us resolve to consolidate households permanently - I could easily see that, had my son not been in the picture, we might have continued to maintain two households for a few more years. 

We have now been living together for 3 years, and it's quite nice  

That would never happen here- Australian housing is too expensive!

[lumpentheologie]

11 hours ago, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

Throwing a curve ball on the thread drift...

My husband and I were friends for several years, then started dating, then got engaged, then got married, then got pregnant, then...moved in together, just as I was approaching my due date! Many people can't wrap their heads around this. It's quite simple, really. We were older when we married (mid 30s and late 40s) and had our independent, established lives in different cities, So for a few years, we maintained "two households". I missed him when we were apart, but also enjoyed my moments of quiet solitude. Throwing a kid into the mix was what finally made us resolve to consolidate households permanently - I could easily see that, had my son not been in the picture, we might have continued to maintain two households for a few more years. 

We have now been living together for 3 years, and it's quite nice  

I know several married couples who live separately, because their jobs are in different cities. Even when they have young children. It's not that uncommon among academic couples since there's fierce competition for 1-3 year postdocs, visiting professorships, etc. Usually if one partner gets a tenure-track position the other will put their career on the back burner and move to where that job is, but not always. Many people will go through a lot (often too much, imo) to pursue a job they spent 10-15 years in higher education for. 

[Austrian Atheist]

21 hours ago, Marly said:

I would say it is the same here in the Netherlands. People don't necessarily get married before they have kids.
Also, people don't tend to get married young. The average age for women to get married here is 31 and for men 34. (The exceptions are fundamentalist religious people, who tend to get married young). 
Usually people have lived together for a long, long time before they get married. A lot of people that don't get married get some kind of domestic partnership when they get older and have been together for a while. 

I would say living together before getting married or without being married is definitely the norm. This is also what I considered normal, and is why I was so surprised when I heard people say that "marriage takes a lot of work! It can be really difficult!". To me, that doesn't have anything to do with marriage, but with relationships in general. I got married last March, on my and my SO's 8 year anniversary. Exactly NOTHING has changed for us. We had already been living together for 5 years, and we stayed in the same appartment we had already been living in. Our relationship did not magically change because we got married. The only thing that has changed is that we will now receive tax benefits, and if anything were to happen to my husband (he has T1D) I am the person who will be called and who will be allowed to be with him in the hospital. That's it. 

It is also quite normal here for women to keep their own name after marriage, and it is becoming more normal (as in, no longer taboo and you won't be laughed at) for men to hyphenate their last name when they get married (which my SO and I have done), though the latter is still not very common.

Divorce is also not taboo, except for fundamentalist religious people, but they are in the minority.
 

Hi fellow Europeans,

it's exactly the same in Austria. In my social circles and generation it's more surprising if a couple marries than they don't. Also what the Australian said above: if you didn't inherit real estate you often couldn't afford to life alone - at least in urban areas. I have a single friend who had a hard time to find an affordable apartment. 

Edited October 1, 2020 by Austrian Atheist