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JinJer 51: Can't Even Sell Donuts!

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Not that josh's mom

Not in metro 

23 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

Be a minority and try to get in the unions that control the work and you'll see. Or just go by any construction site and observe how many minorities are working in skilled positions. It's not 100% exclusion, but it is tokenism. Sometimes minority participation is required to get certain contracts, so out come the blacks and females. These jobs are often legacy, with the older men getting their relatives in the required apprenticeships which are often sponsored by the unions. Part of the old-boys network and institutional racism that makes it hard for non-whites to get these lucrative jobs. It's a problem with all the skilled trades too, plumbing, HVAC, and electrical. There are many barriers to entry for minorities. My knowledge is limited to metro Chicago.

Not in metro Chicago, so I may see things differently. I do have minority family.

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sixcatatty
10 hours ago, BernRul said:

$65,000 is poverty if you have a family with multiple kids, and if thats both parents income combined. Because than the parents are likely working minimum wage jobs with no benefits and no paid time off.

I teach at a low income school. All of my students are poor. And this might make me sound like a bad teacher to some, but none of them are going to Harvard, likely not even the 8 year old who reads on a high school senior level. That's the cold hard truth. And it's not because they aren't smart--my kids are insanely smart, they blow me away. It's because they've been fucked from birth by America's class system and pretending otherwise is a fantasy.

I've had a teacher like you. She said it was impossible for me--the smart but poor girl from the family that was so dysfunctional that it was nonfunctional--to get into law school, let alone graduate and pass the Bar.  Got into law school, graduated with a B- average, passed the Bar. I've done the job I love--being a public defender--for nearly 31 years. I need to figure out if the old bat is still alive. If she is, I'm going to show up on her doorstep and show her my college degree, my law degree, license to practice and my 30 year service award.

I don't think I'm the exception. It was just a bit harder.

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SilverBeach
46 minutes ago, Not that josh's mom said:

Not in metro 

Not in metro Chicago, so I may see things differently. I do have minority family.

Yeah, I'm black, and there is a siginficant minority presence in metro Chicago, so the disparities are very noticible. Plus, Chicago is very much a connected kind of place. It's often who you know in labor unions.

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Pleiades_06
20 hours ago, fluffy said:

There is no doubt about it that the road to a school like Rice, Harvard, etc. is not equitable. Still, $65,000 is not poverty level. I've never made more than that as a college professor.

Harvard is a crap shoot with it’s admission rates. They receive so many qualified candidates that it’s almost become like winning a lottery ticket.

And $65,000 in Cambridge, MA (where Harvard is located) is very near poverty level for a family of 4.  Rents start at $2000 for a two bedroom apartment, not including heat (astronomical in the winter) and electric. Massachusetts subsidizes health care ( thank the higher powers) but the cost of everything else is sky high. 
 

The federal poverty guidelines are outdated and problematic. They don’t account for the fact that cities like NYC and Boston are having an affordable housing crisis. The “ American Dream” is really unattainable for most of the working poor due to circumstances beyond their control. And they are fed lies to make it think it’s all their fault. 

1 hour ago, SilverBeach said:

Be a minority and try to get in the unions that control the work and you'll see. Or just go by any construction site and observe how many minorities are working in skilled positions. It's not 100% exclusion, but it is tokenism. Sometimes minority participation is required to get certain contracts, so out come the blacks and females. These jobs are often legacy, with the older men getting their relatives in the required apprenticeships which are often sponsored by the unions. Part of the old-boys network and institutional racism that makes it hard for non-whites to get these lucrative jobs. It's a problem with all the skilled trades too, plumbing, HVAC, and electrical. There are many barriers to entry for minorities. My knowledge is limited to metro Chicago.

The good ol’ boys in New England like to keep it insular and white. They pay lip service to not being racist but they are the worst.

I sometimes wonder if Jinger’s early experiences with poverty motivate her to get involved with these wacko things. 

Edited by Pleiades_06

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SilverBeach
10 minutes ago, Pleiades_06 said:

Harvard is a crap shoot with it’s admission rates. They receive so many qualified candidates that it’s almost become like winning a lottery ticket.

All highly selective universities are like this now. My alma mater accepts something like 800 out of 40,000 applicants. It's always been selective, but even moreso now because of extra generous financial support.

There's an affordable housing crisis in Chicago also. It's one of the key issues facing low wage earning families. Security deposit, first and last months rent adds up to a hefty sum that just cannot be saved. Not every landlord will accept housing vouchers. Its a crisis.  The American Dream is actually not attainable for many folks.

Edited by SilverBeach

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Pleiades_06
12 minutes ago, Pleiades_06 said:

Harvard is a crap shoot with it’s admission rates. They receive so many qualified candidates that it’s almost become like winning a lottery ticket.

And $65,000 in Cambridge, MA (where Harvard is located) is very near poverty level for a family of 4.  Rents start at $2000 for a two bedroom apartment, not including heat (astronomical in the winter) and electric. Massachusetts subsidizes health care ( thank the higher powers) but the cost of everything else is sky high. 
 

The federal poverty guidelines are outdated and problematic. They don’t account for the fact that cities like NYC and Boston are having an affordable housing crisis. The “ American Dream” is really unattainable for most of the working poor due to circumstances beyond their control. And they are fed lies to make it think it’s all their fault. 

The good ol’ boys in New England like to keep it insular and white. They pay lip service to not being racist but they are the worst.

I sometimes wonder if Jinger’s early experiences with poverty motivate her to get involved with these wacko things. 

That’s exactly what’s happening now at some universities in Europe. Yes, higher education is free-but in some places there are only a few spaces available, meaning that some applicants have to wait years to get a spot and/or go into a field they don’t want to do or like.

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Maggie Mae
16 minutes ago, Pleiades_06 said:

The federal poverty guidelines are outdated and problematic.

The poverty threshold is based on a formula created under LBJ. It assumes that people spend 1/3rd of their income on food, but people really spend more like 1/10th. It doesn't account for the astronomical cost of housing in almost every major city, and most mid level cities. The only place affordable for many people are suburbs with long commutes. It doesn't factor in the cost of health care. 

It assumes shit like you'll keep a toaster for 33 years, a vacuum for 14, a car for two. Things have changed. 

 

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feministxtian

Unions & minorities...come out to Las Vegas. They're begging for tradespeople. I THINK the only qualifications are human and breathing. IBEW is crying, Operating Engineers is crying, Steelworkers is crying. There's so much work and not enough warm bodies to do it. And, here, there's very little of that legacy crap. We're a city of transients. 

So...if you have journeyman papers or you want to apprentice, contact the union local here. 

PS in state tuition for both CSN and UNLV is extremely reasonable. A commuter student can get away with about 5k/yr for CSN and about 10k/yr for UNLV. Not sure about law school, medical school or dental school though. I know they're trying to attract doctors here but I'm not sure what kind of incentives they're offering except for the VA...the VA will pay off your student loans, last I heard. But the VA only hires people who are incompetent, can't pass a licensing or board certification, graduated last in their class and are a bunch of epsilon-minus semi-morons. Trust me on that. SNVAMC is a hot bed of medical incompetence. 

Edited by feministxtian

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squiddysquid
1 hour ago, Pleiades_06 said:

That’s exactly what’s happening now at some universities in Europe. Yes, higher education is free-but in some places there are only a few spaces available, meaning that some applicants have to wait years to get a spot and/or go into a field they don’t want to do or like.

True the European system used to be great, I had to take a test to get into Medschool, but back then your chances of getting in were about 10%, so not too bad. Nowadays, they tell me you don't stand a chance if you don't take those private prep courses for the entrance exam (at least for the highly comptetitive subjects), which costs thousands, eg. you need wealthy parents.

Another problem is that every EU citizen has the right to enter uni in every EU state, don't get wrong, I'm pro EU, but it means that small countries get overrun by student from larger states with stricter uni laws, among other things, it's also destroying the free public health system.

Private Eastern European university discovered the US as their cash cow, offering courses modeled after the American curriculums to attract US students. While they still have to pay, it's a fragment of what a comparable college in the USA would costs, very much to the disadvantage of local students of course.

I'm trying to make my way as an International Medical Graduate overseas right now. The licence exams are hard (and  expensive) you are always at the bottom of the list as a non citizen, but I'm determined to work my way up.

I knew that was going to leave the country before I even started studying, but there was no way I would have been able to handle the astronomical overseas medschool fees. I did manage to get a couple of scholarships, won competitions, was the highschool valedictorian, did internships from 15 years onwards but that would have never sufficed for a private uni education. Who your parents are (and how much they earn) does matter a lot, unfortunately.

Medschool also meant classes from 8am to 6pm, sometimes even earlier (or later) and a timetable that changed every week and short notice changes cause the Prof had an emergency and couldn't make it. Attendance wasn't voluntary for most courses.

That meant getting a job to finance your studies was hard with those fluctuating uni hours (even with free education, rent was still crazy expensive) and we had to work a certain amount of weeks at hospitals for free during our "holidays", so not really an option to save up some money during summer break. The only option you had was bartending at night clubs and weekend work. No one can concentrate the day after at uni - when you had to work until 5am.

Students who were bankrolled by their parents were able to use that time to study, do some extra rotations at prestigious overseas hospitals adn summer schools. (and of course often only getting in 'cause their doctor parents asked some friends for a favour. That means better grades, better networking and some "very impressive" voluntary experiences to put on your CV. It definitely isn't an even playing field.

YouTube Life of Privilege Explained in a $100 Race

Edited by squiddysquid

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meep
8 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

Totally agree. My elite college had many who didn't work and their parents paid tuition in cash. These students also had cars, some of them new cars, when I could hardly afford bus fare!. No resume building unpaid internships for me, I needed to earn money during the summer. No spring break trips, couldn't afford it. So many cultural differences because these students came from a higher socioeconomic bracket than I did and just weren't struggling to survive. But I persevered and closed that gap for my own child. Not easy. My school was very competitive and not very supportive.  If I knew then what I know now I wouldn't have gone there. But nobdy can take my degree from me and it has had some value. 

I'm going to a community college now and I'm struggling with some of this. I'm taking online classes because I never learned how to drive. It sucks to walk the mile to the closest bus station when it is sleeting and snowing outside with slick sidewalks or roads with no sidewalks at all and huge snow mountains. Add that time to an already long bus ride and it would take nearly 3 hours to school and 3 hours back. Or sometimes the only classes available end past the time when the last bus visits the school for the night. I generally find my community college unhelpful. But I will do what I have to in order to make it through. 

Edited by meep

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JanasTattooParlor
On 1/19/2020 at 6:13 AM, squiddysquid said:

$98,974 is the average college professor salary in the US, even associate professors earn more than 65.000 according to Wikipedia.

I'm not from the US, post-docs earn shit, but when you finally habilitate as a prof after ages, you make a lot.

Can I ask why you thaught high school? In my experience you either stop after you get your diploma or you stay in academics, which is immensely competitive to get in as it is, usually once you're out you're out.

That's how I know it in Europe and Australia, I just imagine US academia being that different. Self destructive me is still playing around with the idea of adding a clinical PhD (MD-Phd), so I'd be really interested.

Though the average may be that, it varies wildly depending on where in the US you are and what you are a professor of. The state school that I went to in the southeast US had professors in the business college that made $100k+ and then in my department (math) tenured professors started at $56k and new professors started at $50k. I’m a first year high school teacher this year and with the bonus they gave me for teaching math, I’m making almost the same that a new professor would. 

The sad thing I see is my low income kids have so many hurdles to face when it comes to education, especially the black males in my school. The culture says that being a well educated black student is showing your whiteness and those students get shunned by other black people in the school. It makes me so sad as I’ve watched a few of my students this year start off as strong students and then drop off after the first quarter of school because their peers are telling them school doesn’t matter and it only matters to get by. It seems like no amount of encouragement helps either because they care more about what their peers think than what I think. I just try to push them to get to whatever their goals are and it makes me sad that most of my students only care about getting by. 

ETA: I can really understand why teachers get burnt out so quickly if they’re having experiences like I am. I feel like I put my all into my students and it still isn’t enough to change their perspective on their own abilities. I about cried when I gave my first final exams last week and the majority of my kids failed despite me putting my all into a five day review of the semester for them. 

Edited by JanasTattooParlor
Had more to say. Sorry for the wall of text!

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allthegoodnamesrgone
On 1/18/2020 at 3:10 PM, BernRul said:

So let's say I'm from a family that makes under $65,000. Chances are my parents can't afford to send me to a private school. Maybe a Catholic school, but they'll have to bust their asses off to make that tuition. Depending on where I live, the public school is shit. Outdated resources, lack of creative classes like art and music, and possibly more than 35 kids in a class. Many of these kids are going to be Below Basic on standardized tests, have learning delays due to poverty, and get all of the attention in a school that only teaches to the test, because that's where the school's limited funding comes from.

I'm a gifted and talented student. I have an intellectual gift. But that is ignored in my school, which does not have the resources. How the hell can I compete with kids who come from generational wealth? The kids who have been spoonfed the makings of perfect Harvard candidate by their parents, communities, and elite schools? I can't. 

Sure, some lucky one in a million kid will benefit from this. But imo, that doesn't change the fact that Harvard still has legacy admissions and overwhelmingly favors the advantaged. The $65,000 thing exists so we can pat ourselves on the back about how America is a meritocracy, when in reality we have a modern class struggle that looks more like 18th century France than the American Dream™️.

You can't, and that is the point.

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just_ordinary
21 hours ago, meep said:

Well to add in another story...I was mostly in private school, went to public school for 1 year, then was homeschooled for 4 years, grew up in and out of fundieland til I decided to leave that life behind me at 19. 10 years later and I'm still healing and learning. All that to say, I came from a very, very poor family in a poor neighborhood. I only went to private school because both I was a "scholarship kid." It gave me a good education though I could say some bad stuff about the conservative Christian aspect of it. When I got to public school, it was like entering an alien world. I experienced huge culture shock, one being that I was so very clearly ahead of everyone. I was doing work in 8th grade that I had already done back in 3rd grade. It was a joke. My teachers really pushed me and encouraged me. They were sure I'd make it to a top-tier, Ivy league school - I got the valedictorian award that year (I didn't even know they had that for middle schools), I was editor of the newspaper, I was in president's council, did leadership summits, won spelling and geography competitions, was in the honor society, and was part of varsity band. But at the end of the day, my parents decided to homeschool me for high school and it fucked all the chances I thought I had. Some of my classmates from that one year in public school did make it out, a few even did get into Harvard and UofC. They are the exception. The absolute vast majority of them did not even graduate. The graduation rate of the local high school was 36% at the time we were entering high school (part of the reason my parents didn't want me going there). I checked again last year and it was up to 51%, a huge improvement. Of course there will always be kids who beat the odds, but as another person who is of mixed ethnicity from a poor neighborhood, in my personal experience, most kids just don't make it, even if they are really smart, for many various factors. I think when you keep climbing out, it's easy to forget just how many people still have never gotten out of poverty, how many people still have never been properly educated, how many people will never get a college degree. 1/3 of Americans have a college degree. Yes, that's a lot, more than ever...but it still means most people don't have one. 

While I agree with everything you said, I think we have to have a close look at what jobs should need a degree. Many job sectors push for this because it makes them more „valuable“ but it also means people are held from applying. I really question how many professions need a university education instead of a good and comprehensive training (here job training is 2-4 years to get you certified on the lowest level. You earn money, work in a company but also attend school.) Fact is, not everyone is smart enough. Not everyone values education. Not everyone is driven or has a supportive background. Struggles of all sorts can keep people from going further. And it should be possible to find a good job to earn your living if that’s the case for you. And I don’t mean minimum wage. Because that’s how you get a society were working class people feel left out and an educated elite that is definitely not around to use their knowledge to help them.

20 hours ago, Daisy0322 said:

The actual income number is relative 65k is quite comfortable for some and not for others depending on location, student loans, etc. I feel that it’s more about connections and culture. I was the first in my family to try to go to college and it was insanely hard because I didn’t even know how to sign up for classes- I was a sophomore before I realized that I had to take specific classes to get a degree. A lot of that can be over come with outreach programs and mentoring. I was raised in a generally upper middle class area even though I was not so those programs weren’t readily available or at least I didn’t know about them. Point being there’s a “catch up” process to get through when youve never personally known someone who went to college. I think that resources would be the most valuable thing we could ever give someone. Being raised working class lifestyle  I don’t believe Is as important as just not having the resources or the know how to beat the system. 

I think it’s very interesting how much mentoring and support students in America get from their universities in that regard. When I attended (got my Bachelor ten years ago) it was very much swim or drown. I had to figure out how to pick courses, how to sign in, and so on. There were seminars about writing a scientific paper (where the shortest was 15 pages. Those were the days...) but that was it. No one told me were the faculty libraries were if I didn’t ask. 
There weren’t “bring your parents to uni” days and my parents sure as hell wouldn’t interfere. We would move out into flat sharing communities, rooms on campus are very rare and most work part time to finance their life. Rent is often pretty high in many university cities but tuition isn’t. 
It’s different now but I sometimes wonder what changed for the better abc what didn’t (infantilising students definitely not).

13 hours ago, Pleiades_06 said:

That’s exactly what’s happening now at some universities in Europe. Yes, higher education is free-but in some places there are only a few spaces available, meaning that some applicants have to wait years to get a spot and/or go into a field they don’t want to do or like.

Some departments have always been pretty exclusive (medicine) and there have always been universities with a reputation that are hard to get into. Adding just unpopular universities because they are far away from the “cool” cities. The cry for excellence programs, elite universities and changing teaching and degree system without keeping in mind how our societies work in Europe makes it impossible. Everything should be easy to transfer but from what I gathered it is still complicated and the freedom university once meant (and yes also the freedom to fail) is gone in many instances. Here university was originally set up for academic work and research. Not work classification.

And I do wonder: with all the headlines of a medical doctor shortage. Where are they? If the courses are full- where do they go? Are they all finding places in the cities? And why don’t you even get an appointment with a specialist easily in a city? Do we really need much more doctors than 15 years ago? 

Sorry for the long text. Just couldn’t stop..

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Cleopatra7
8 hours ago, JanasTattooParlor said:

Though the average may be that, it varies wildly depending on where in the US you are and what you are a professor of. The state school that I went to in the southeast US had professors in the business college that made $100k+ and then in my department (math) tenured professors started at $56k and new professors started at $50k. I’m a first year high school teacher this year and with the bonus they gave me for teaching math, I’m making almost the same that a new professor would. 

The sad thing I see is my low income kids have so many hurdles to face when it comes to education, especially the black males in my school. The culture says that being a well educated black student is showing your whiteness and those students get shunned by other black people in the school. It makes me so sad as I’ve watched a few of my students this year start off as strong students and then drop off after the first quarter of school because their peers are telling them school doesn’t matter and it only matters to get by. It seems like no amount of encouragement helps either because they care more about what their peers think than what I think. I just try to push them to get to whatever their goals are and it makes me sad that most of my students only care about getting by. 

ETA: I can really understand why teachers get burnt out so quickly if they’re having experiences like I am. I feel like I put my all into my students and it still isn’t enough to change their perspective on their own abilities. I about cried when I gave my first final exams last week and the majority of my kids failed despite me putting my all into a five day review of the semester for them. 

As a black person who has spent their entire life as the “black girl” in majority environments, from kindergarten to PHD, those kids aren’t entirely wrong. If you really plan to succeed academically in this country as a minority, you have to be socialized at a young age to accept that you’ll be the only person who looks like you in the classroom, every single day for the rest of your life (it will continue into the workplace if you plan on doing any kind of white collar work). Not only this, but to be minimally accepted in these white environments, you also need to be know how to code switch, not be threatening, and talk about the things white people find interesting. White people, even the liberal ones, don’t realize this, because they consider themselves to be the default and don’t realize the psychological work it takes to be a perpetual minority. Most black people don’t want to do this. Frankly, most whites don’t want to either, which is why they balk at the idea of themselves or their children being a minority. What integration has meant is that the onus is on blacks and other people of color to conform to white tastes and situations, while it is sufficient for whites to merely tolerate the presence of minorities in their spaces. If we as a society were to get real about what actually needs to be done to encourage “diversity,” we’d talk about these issues, but we’re not, so it doesn’t happen.
 

Since 2016, I’ve been reevaluating my life as a black female in the post-Civil Right era who has spent the bulk of her life socialized among whites. On paper, I suppose I’ve been a success, but I’ve been wondering about whether the ontological and psychological violence is worth it. I believe it was James Baldwin who asked what the point is of integrating a burning building, and I feel like I’ve spent much of my life as that cartoon dog in the meme who says, “This is fine,” while covered in flames.

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apandaaries

Lots of excellent points here about legacy admittances and the structural difficulties of moving up educationally.  It saddens me to see so many limiting their higher education to local, less expensive schools,  though. Education should be a well-funded right.   If any of us hope to see a doctor when we're elderly (or, you know, have a functioning society), then we'd better fund education for the youth today.

Higher education fees for public universities have risen astronomically as public funding has slowly been eroded.  (Except Alaska, where they just took 40% of the funding in some sort of slash and burn mania.  @Maggie Mae I'm so sorry for your state.  Everything I've read from higher ed publications has been terrifying, and many educators who haven't been eliminated are working on their escape plans.)

Since we're on the subject of Harvard, there have been a lot of discussions about whether or not they should even be charging students fees, since their endowment is massive -- like $40 billion massive. 

It's been an idea floated in a number of areas: https://money.com/harvard-free-tuition-endowment/

https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/editorials/ct-harvard-free-tuition-edit-0130-20160129-story.html

Also noteworthy is the theory that if Harvard stopped charging, so would other Ivies (as though that'd be a bad thing). 

I'm of the opinion that we should be putting more public funding back into higher ed, and lowering fees for all students. We need an educated population, especially those who are motivated in that direction already. I also applaud the idea of private universities funding most students. Loans are an abomination, run by predatory companies who take orders from DeVos.  It's a terrible system.

It's also worth remembering that Ivies aren't the be-all, end-all of intelligentsia.   Jared Kushner's father bought Jared's admittance, and he certainly wasn't the first father to do so: https://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2016/11/18/report-kushner-got-into-harvard-after-dad-s-donation Only took $2.5 million to overlook Jared's flaws! And enhance Kushner's resume and network,  to the detriment of the nation.

 

 

Edited by apandaaries
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apandaaries

Regarding the wages of higher ed professionals, those can vary widely. A full professor with tenure is usually doing fairly well. 
But we shouldn’t overlook the fact that vast quantities of teaching done on American campuses are done by adjunct faculty. The same amount of education is involved, but adjuncts are far, far less expensive for the university to employ.

Here are a couple articles on that: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jonyounger/2019/02/22/adjunct-professors-are-freelancers-too-heres-what-they-need-from-us/amp/

https://www.newfacultymajority.info/facts-about-adjuncts/

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squiddysquid
7 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

And I do wonder: with all the headlines of a medical doctor shortage. Where are they? If the courses are full- where do they go? Are they all finding places in the cities? And why don’t you even get an appointment with a specialist easily in a city? Do we really need much more doctors than 15 years ago? 

Brain drain

40% of medical graduates in my country leave after graduation.

Mostly because they're from another state in the first place or, like me the ones fleeing the inhumane working conditions caused by the shortage of doctors.

Think 100 hour weeks (everything over 65 hours at your own legal risk, but you can't leave cause there's no one to replace you). And no real teaching during your specialisation cause the senior docs are too busy.

Then all the baby boomers who retired and need docs more frequently themselves.

When certain countries (mostly Eastern European) joined the EU, they actually weren't allowed to work freely in other EU States for the first 5 years.

Exept medical personnel - for example 15.000 nurses left Poland during that time.

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Pleiades_06
27 minutes ago, apandaaries said:

Regarding the wages of higher ed professionals, those can vary widely. A full professor with tenure is usually doing fairly well. 
But we shouldn’t overlook the fact that vast quantities of teaching done on American campuses are done by adjunct faculty. The same amount of education is involved, but adjuncts are far, far less expensive for the university to employ.

Here are a couple articles on that: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jonyounger/2019/02/22/adjunct-professors-are-freelancers-too-heres-what-they-need-from-us/amp/

https://www.newfacultymajority.info/facts-about-adjuncts/

Same in Germany. The contract system keeps people in temporary lecture positions and then gets rid of them before they get too expensive.

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dawbs

In my unpopular opinion for the day, I also think that people who 'make it' can complicate things.

Beyond the outsiders who say 'see see, it's possible to bootstrap yourself', people within the system do so as well.
EX: Mr. Dawbs was all set to signup as military.  Like, literally sitting in the offices, had zero contingency plans.  And his recruiter told him something hinky, he walked away, he worked on no plan...and then he got a letter saying he got a full ride scholarship he hadn't applied for to the local state school.  Convincing him (and his parents) that, no, that REALLY doesn't happen to most people makes it that much harder for them to grasp the complicating factors.

EX2: I have a SIL who has a life story that...well, it would be a cross between after-school-special and lifetime movie.  I'd say she was raised by abusive monsters, but I assume werewolves have some pack instinct-her birth family didn't.  She got out.  And by got out, I mean is doing *really* well for herself; she and her husband probably make 3x what the Mr. and I do in a year and have been happily married for 20? years.  She has (understandably) cut ties w/ most folks from her past.  And makes the occasional comment that disparages her sibling(s) for not getting out.
Which...yeah, it would be amazing if they did--it's amazing (and due to a few lucky breaks) that she did--but while they're responsible for their lives, maybe her sister  more-or-less being intentionally given illicit drugs by (to make her pliable) and then pimped out by her parents, saying 'well, I made it, so should they' kinda overshadows the problems inherent in a system  (any that requires a teenager to have those skills).  It makes it easy for her (and hence other folks) to dismiss the baby sister as someone who didn't do for herself, instead of recognizing that this is someone who had a 99.9999% chance of failure, it's just that her big sister hit the .00001%.

I'm not sure I"m saying that well.  But I wish people who got breaks would see the 'luck' in them rather than assuming the system isn't broken.

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Pleiades_06

Cycling back to Jinger-she represents the .0001% of fundies who make it big. I know it’s been said before, but there are crazies out there who will try to emulate her thinking they too can make it.  They will blame themselves for not being godly enough when they don’t make it. 
 

 

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Someone Out There
11 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

And I do wonder: with all the headlines of a medical doctor shortage. Where are they? If the courses are full- where do they go? Are they all finding places in the cities? And why don’t you even get an appointment with a specialist easily in a city? Do we really need much more doctors than 15 years ago?

In my country, there are limited places for the education part.  Then after getting your degree you need to find a residency spot which you are not guaranteed.  If you don't get your residency, then you can't become a fully qualified doctor.  A lot of the residency locations are in the cities and so enticing doctors to the country is somewhat difficult.  Specialists I'm not 100% sure on, but I believe they are about another 10 years of education/experience on top of actually qualifying to be a doctor.  Medical advances have been significant in the last 10-30 years as well, which creates more demand on the system (as people are dying as early/are being treated rather than dying).

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Wine time!
squiddysquid

You also have to take into account the huge amount of money it takes to set up a practice, medical equiptment costs a fuckload of money, half a million would be cheap. Mind, you like you said specialisation takes ages and contrary to popular belief training doctors don't make much. So you're nearing you 40s have a student loan to repay, just got qualified, maybe a couple of kids and now you're supposed to take the risk to take out a huge credit with shitty interest?

As you said, you spent the better of your last 20 years training in the city, are you uprooting your spouse and kids now, forcing your partner to loose his job, depending on yours only?

Then the problem with small towns. You never stop working, apart from office hours, people will follow you home, everyone knows you, not 5 mins in the supermarket and someone asks for a quick free consult. People have no boundaries, your doorbell will ring multiple times in the middle of the night, wether you're on call or not, they feel entitled. But who needs sleep, hey? Forget making friends in the area. Some doctors have weekly country doc emotional support groups.

Then you have to fight not to get bankrupt, usually politics think paying a fixed fee for consults is the way to go. 3 mins per consult, anything more doesn't get refunded - you'll have to do follow ups for free as well...

If you want to treat patients with a certain minimum standard, you'll be forced to close shop soon.

Then of course we have no idea how to run a business. Budget, planning taxes, hiring people, stocking medical supplies... we studied medicine, not business - you get thrown into cold water.

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bal maiden
12 hours ago, Cleopatra7 said:

As a black person who has spent their entire life as the “black girl” in majority environments, from kindergarten to PHD, those kids aren’t entirely wrong. If you really plan to succeed academically in this country as a minority, you have to be socialized at a young age to accept that you’ll be the only person who looks like you in the classroom, every single day for the rest of your life (it will continue into the workplace if you plan on doing any kind of white collar work). Not only this, but to be minimally accepted in these white environments, you also need to be know how to code switch, not be threatening, and talk about the things white people find interesting. White people, even the liberal ones, don’t realize this, because they consider themselves to be the default and don’t realize the psychological work it takes to be a perpetual minority. Most black people don’t want to do this. Frankly, most whites don’t want to either, which is why they balk at the idea of themselves or their children being a minority. What integration has meant is that the onus is on blacks and other people of color to conform to white tastes and situations, while it is sufficient for whites to merely tolerate the presence of minorities in their spaces. If we as a society were to get real about what actually needs to be done to encourage “diversity,” we’d talk about these issues, but we’re not, so it doesn’t happen.
 

Since 2016, I’ve been reevaluating my life as a black female in the post-Civil Right era who has spent the bulk of her life socialized among whites. On paper, I suppose I’ve been a success, but I’ve been wondering about whether the ontological and psychological violence is worth it. I believe it was James Baldwin who asked what the point is of integrating a burning building, and I feel like I’ve spent much of my life as that cartoon dog in the meme who says, “This is fine,” while covered in flames.

I really appreciate you posting this. I have no idea what it is like to be a black woman in America, and this is something that has never occurred to me. Which is pretty much the definition of white privilege right there! 

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HereticHick
On 1/19/2020 at 10:02 PM, sixcatatty said:

I've had a teacher like you. She said it was impossible for me--the smart but poor girl from the family that was so dysfunctional that it was nonfunctional--to get into law school, let alone graduate and pass the Bar.  Got into law school, graduated with a B- average, passed the Bar. I've done the job I love--being a public defender--for nearly 31 years. I need to figure out if the old bat is still alive. If she is, I'm going to show up on her doorstep and show her my college degree, my law degree, license to practice and my 30 year service award.

I don't think I'm the exception. It was just a bit harder.

Forget about the old bat teacher. Reach out a hand to the smart but poor kids behind you that need a leg up.  Seek them out as interns. Take them to lunch. Give them advice. Expect things from them. Keep in touch with them.

For those of us who have "made it" against the odds--that's our duty.  I can't fix a broken higher ed system. But railing against Harvard et al doesn't solve anything either. I can do a lot more good in the world mentoring a young person than bitching about the Ivy League.

Your being a public defender is awesome, by the way.

 

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SassyPants
12 hours ago, Pleiades_06 said:

Cycling back to Jinger-she represents the .0001% of fundies who make it big. I know it’s been said before, but there are crazies out there who will try to emulate her thinking they too can make it.  They will blame themselves for not being godly enough when they don’t make it. 
 

 

First, Jinger has not really made it big. Her parents had a lot of kids that they couldn't support, and were lucky to be the first inline when reality tv and the genre of freak shows arrived. That’s it. Currently she and her narcissistic, lazy husband are riding on coattails as long as they can, and after that, it’s anyone’s guess as to how successful they might ultimately be. I do think the Duggars who practice some sort of reproductive planning/control, and those with some education and skills will ultimately fare better. In this regard, the Vuolos, Forsyths and Dillards’s financial outlooks will likely be better than the various male Duggars and the Seewalds.

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