JinJer 51: Can't Even Sell Donuts!

[feministxtian]

3 hours ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

By the time my kiddos are ready for college, we will have enough for both of them to attend State U.  They are 12 and (almost) 9...and we are already having discussions about affording college and not breaking the bank of Mom and Dad to do it.  My kids are not going to be high-powered doctors or lawyers...State U is going to be great for them.  If they want to go private, then they’ll have to go to CC first.

William and Mary has a co-enrollment program for Thomas Nelson students to cut down the cost...boom.

Harvard by the Highway has 2+2 programs with most of the state schools in VA. I'm a Harvard by the Highway graduate, class of 2001.

W & M is rather affordable even though it is "William & Mary". I know a bunch of people who went there, Tech, JMU, ODU, all the other state schools. My stepson in law is a Tech grad and my stepdaughter is a VCU grad. So is my sister in law. 

My personal hero graduated from VaTech...he was responsible for a major part of the space program when it started in 1958. 

[haroldtheyrefundies]

For some reason I completely forgot that William and Mary is a public research school.... my bad. I agree that state schools are not that bad at all. Even though I don't want to go to the two in my state that everyone goes to (they don't have my major and the people from the school I went to for a while who l I don't like go there). The other one I do like has a great music business program and I was really impressed by the school when I toured there. My sister was also surprised by it. 

[LacyMay]

10 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

There's also growing awareness of the problem that students who are the first generation to go to college may not have the support they need to get through effectively. It's great when schools include some form of support the people may not inherently know from family experience what is expected of them. Some of those expectations are really unclear unless you are brought up just knowing it

I was a first genner and this is 110% true. There's so much experience and expectation wise that I felt behind the 8 ball on plus I think there's a different kind of pressure. First gen students face many additional barriers and I'm so happy that awareness is growing and more supports are being provided.

 

[raspberrymint]

What's considered first generation?

If someone's grandparents attended college and their parents did not, or didn't finish, or one parent didn't finish and one has a technical degree, does the prospective student count as first generation?  What if three-fourths of the grandparents went to college and half of the great-grandparents?

I'm not being facetious.  I'm sincerely asking.  This is going to be relevant more and more.

[Melissa1977]

1 hour ago, raspberrymint said:

What's considered first generation?

If someone's grandparents attended college and their parents did not, or didn't finish, or one parent didn't finish and one has a technical degree, does the prospective student count as first generation?  What if three-fourths of the grandparents went to college and half of the great-grandparents?

I'm not being facetious.  I'm sincerely asking.  This is going to be relevant more and more.

No previous degrees on the family. 

I suppose technical schools count as degrees for that matter, if the academic requirement for enrolling is to have finished high school previously.

There's plenty of people my age who were first generation, because for my grandparents and parents generation, degrees/diplomas were not required for most jobs.

I have never thought before about the difficulties of being first generation. I faced that, but I thought it was my fault. I realise now that my children will be better prepared for college than me, because my first-hand experience, my husband, our friends, relatives etc.

 

[eport]

12 hours ago, crancraz said:

My ridiculously gifted daughter brought up Harvard and I was like, nope, state school for you. There is literally no good reason to rack up debt and burn yourself out trying to get in for something that doesn’t really matter that much in the long run.  Go to an affordable state school that has a solid program and enjoy being at university!  There is nothing wrong with average. Most of us, despite going to high caliber schools, live regular, normal happy lives.  

I do have to say my high school encouraged applications everywhere, but keep finances in mind.  They had numerous examples over the years of students who once accepted to both the private and the state school, the private schools with their bigger endowments/scholarships ended up being cheaper than the state school (and for a couple of my friends, this was true as well). This is not to say one is better than the other, just that saying you will only apply to state schools as it is cheaper is not always accurate.

[Bobology]

14 hours ago, crancraz said:

Go to an affordable state school that has a solid program and enjoy being at university!  There is nothing wrong with average. Most of us, despite going to high caliber schools, live regular, normal happy lives.

I like this.

Before retirement I had to keep up with stuff, and once read (can't remember where or when) that your college can sometimes help in landing that first professional job, but once you begin your work life employers don't give a hoot from where you earned your degree... it's all about what you can do and how you do it. Of course there would be exceptions to this in some high-powered professions, but that's not most of us.

[Maggie Mae]

1 hour ago, Bobology said:

Before retirement I had to keep up with stuff, and once read (can't remember where or when) that your college can sometimes help in landing that first professional job, but once you begin your work life employers don't give a hoot from where you earned your degree... it's all about what you can do and how you do it. Of course there would be exceptions to this in some high-powered professions, but that's not most of us.

It's who you know 90% of the time. It matters "what you know" if you are a plumber or a nurse or something, but for most office based work it's all about that f'ing network. You want a job as a writer? It's great you know how to write! We'll hire you, but first we need to find a spot for the owner's son in law. You want a job in marketing? You look great, strong resume, but this person over here has better connections. Administrative assistant? We're gonna take your experience and say "wow, you are our first choice!" and then hire Suzie Q over there who "came recommended from person A" and has a rich husband so we can pay her less. Need a new Executive Director? Why hire the person who has worked at the organization for 15 years, doing all the jobs, who we go on and on about how great she is, when there's a rich white man who recently got let go from a CEO ship and "has connections?"  Doesn't matter that he literally can't turn on a computer and after a year has no idea what the company even does, he goes to church with someone on the hiring committee. And that's the real privileged of the Ivy Leagues - the network you acquire opens doors.  Doors that people like me didn't even know existed when I was 16.

[kmachete14]

My brother went to a private college on a Presidential scholarship that made it equal in cost to a state school he was also considering. So state college is not always cheaper. Both schools had comparably business programs, but the school he attended was considerably smaller and had a different sort of fraternity atmosphere. 

Obviously he could have gone to an EVEN cheaper state school, but I the connections and repertoire from the business schools were important to him -- he got a scholarship soph year, junior year, and now is already employed for when he graduates this spring. 

@Maggie Mae I concur, but my examples are not as extreme as yours. My sister did recruiting for her investment firm. Candidates with recommendations were picked out of the pile. However, unlike your anecdotes, they weren't choosing grossly incompetent people just because they had connections. Everyone had a 4.0 GPA, a great internship, had attended a selective college, and had leadership positions. She said it was surreal looking at a pile of literally pristine people. In the end, like you said, the ones with connections were added to the pool for further interviews. It also appeared that given two equal candidates, her firm would hire the female over the male candidate, as they were striving to achieve 50/50 ratio in their workplace. I'm sure they can't legally say that though. I just wanted to point out that connections play a HUGE role, but the people with connections aren't always idiots -- they me be just as competent but have a leg up. 

I myself think I was chosen over equal candidates because of my connections. I attended the same college as my principal, had attended a similar school as a child, and knew many of the researches/admin/professors my principal was familiar with. It's part of the reason I chose that college in the first place, because of the network. 

My husband was also hired through connections -- his CEO has his same unique ethnicity, attended the same business school, and my husband had excellent recommendations from a mutual acquaintance. I am not privy to the other candidates he may have beat out, so this is speculation, but how could those connections not have influenced the decision to hire him . . . 

I am wondering though, what is the solution? Forbid people from hiring people they know, refuse recommendation letters from mutual acquaintances, recuse yourself from mentioning if you know a candidate or have things in common with them? Forbid people from applying to jobs when they have any connections or mutual acquaintances with the higher ups? 

I also run a summer camp. I will  without shame say that I will choose candidates funneled through my current employees over random ones, given they are qualified. 

Edited January 9, 2020 by kmachete14

[sixcatatty]

13 hours ago, LacyMay said:

I was a first genner and this is 110% true. There's so much experience and expectation wise that I felt behind the 8 ball on plus I think there's a different kind of pressure. First gen students face many additional barriers and I'm so happy that awareness is growing and more supports are being provided.

 

I'm a first generation to graduate from college, first to earn a professional degree, too. I'm a Berea College graduate. Berea takes most of its population from Kentucky and Appalachia, but currently has students frmo 40 states and 70 countries.

Berea has a ton of first-generation students, all of whom have "limited financial means" and charges no tuition. It's one of eight colleges in the US with a mandatory work-study program and is the first co-educational and interracial college in the south. 

In 2019, Washington Monthly ranked Berea fourth in the US among liberal arts colleges based on its contribution to the public good, as measured by social mobility, research, and promoting public service.

The 2020 U.S. News & World Report annual rankings says Berea is 2nd in ""Most Innovative Schools", 4th in "Best Undergraduate Teaching" and tied for 14th in "Top Performers in Social Mobility" among liberal arts colleges.

It's a good choice for first-generation students.

 

[raspberrymint]

I have a technical degree and work where experience does matter because I couldn't afford to network.  My wife went to a four year college and left without a degree.  Student loans and no degree.  We have no parental support.  Why shouldn't our kids count as first generation?

[EmmieJ]

13 hours ago, Melissa1977 said:

There's plenty of people my age who were first generation, because for my grandparents and parents generation, degrees/diplomas were not required for most jobs.

My father was the first in his family to attend college.  I think he might also have been the first to finish high school too.  That's because his paternal grandfather died unexpectedly in his early 50's, leaving behind a widow who was pregnant and 7 other children, so the oldest children dropped out of school to find work to support the family.  (The younger children may have been able to finish high school, but I don't really know either way.)  His maternal grandfather suffered a workplace injury that caused him to go blind.  At that time, no workers comp programs or disability.  So the oldest children, who were all girls, had to also drop out of high school and go to work to support the family.  So it was really a big deal for my dad to go to college and earn a degree.  But at that time, a lot of guys (especially) were going to college on the military benefits from serving in the Korean War (which is how my dad was able to pay for college).

 

1 hour ago, sixcatatty said:

Berea has a ton of first-generation students, all of whom have "limited financial means" and charges no tuition. It's one of eight colleges in the US with a mandatory work-study program and is the first co-educational and interracial college in the south. 

Wow, I had never heard of this college - and I wish more like it would be created.  What a great option!

[Leftitinmysnood]

All I really want to see on Jinger's Insta is a pic of her and/or Jeremy at The Pie Hole kiosk at The Americana at Brand. 

We'll know she's really gone boho when she starts getting clothes from the Free People there. 

[LacyMay]

1 hour ago, raspberrymint said:

I have a technical degree and work where experience does matter because I couldn't afford to network.  My wife went to a four year college and left without a degree.  Student loans and no degree.  We have no parental support.  Why shouldn't our kids count as first generation?

I think there's always going to be shades of grey in situations like this. I also wouldn't say "count as first generation" as if it's some sort of status symbol or as if first generation students are somehow receiving preferential treatment. It's also not all about financial support. 

A lot of what I found was missing was intangible support. My parents knew nothing about navigating the post secondary world, helping me secure on campus housing, knowing what options were available to me, navigating student aid etc. The fact that your wife attended a post secondary institution (and from the sounds of it so did you) gives your kids a small advantage over a student from a family where no one attended post secondary or potentially even graduated high school. The type of support being provided to first gen students is often to try and make up for some of these knowledge gaps ie access to peer mentors who are also first gen students. 

There's not a black and white divide of privileged and not privileged students, you have legacy students from wealthy homes with Drs and Lawyers as parents with every advantage, you have students from middle income homes with parents that attended post secondary but work as teachers and nurses and you have kids who may be the first in their family to graduate high school. 

 

[PennySycamore]

@sixcatatty,  I think it's wonderful that you went to Berea!  My mom and dad met when they were students there.  My dad transferred to Western Kentucky after a couple of years as it was closer to home, but he visited Berea often to see my mom.  They both dropped out of school to get married.  I think they later regretted the dropping out part,  but not the getting married part.  My oldest brother's daughter graduated from Berea and works for the college now.   The doctor that delivered my last three also graduated from Berea.  I like to think that some of that makes him such an extraordinary doctor came from his years at Berea.  

FWIW, my mom waitressed at Boone Tavern as her college labor.  I always loved to tell my friends that because it sounded kinda naughty. 

[kmachete14]

Based on my limited knowledge, a lot of schools now have programs for first-gen students, and other programs for low-SES students.

My alma mater had a mandatory summer program for the first-gen students and then mandatory check-ins, office hours, etc. plus a bunch of optional support.

The low-SES students (I guess the ones on full-almost full scholarships) got free dining money, free tickets to any school events and events in the town my school is located, and other free perks, as well as work-study programs & secondhand book sales. 

Health insurance was provided as well. Idk if was my school or the fact that it's in Massachusetts, which has public health insurance. 

 

Edited January 9, 2020 by kmachete14

[sixcatatty]

53 minutes ago, PennySycamore said:

@sixcatatty,  I think it's wonderful that you went to Berea!  My mom and dad met when they were students there.  My dad transferred to Western Kentucky after a couple of years as it was closer to home, but he visited Berea often to see my mom.  They both dropped out of school to get married.  I think they later regretted the dropping out part,  but not the getting married part.  My oldest brother's daughter graduated from Berea and works for the college now.   The doctor that delivered my last three also graduated from Berea.  I like to think that some of that makes him such an extraordinary doctor came from his years at Berea.  

FWIW, my mom waitressed at Boone Tavern as her college labor.  I always loved to tell my friends that because it sounded kinda naughty. 

I have that sort of Berea family story on my husband's side. I met him at Berea, his parents and one of his paternal uncles and his wife also met and married at Berea. One of my husband's brothers graduated two years before us but he's never married.

Neither of us worked at Boone Saloon. Which is naughtier--a tavern or a saloon? (grin)

[MathQueen]

First gen college graduate here.  The only family member I had who had even attended high school was my father, who passed away the year before I started high school. Without going into detail, the situation at home was pretty dire after his death. My saving grace was my high school counselor. We were his very first class (about 600 of us!), and he was determined to help his students succeed. He noticed ambitious, hard-working kids like me, and he stepped in to push us along. He would call me into the office whenever paperwork had to be done to meet a go-to-college deadline, like the SAT's. I took the SAT cold, but I was there to take it because of his efforts. He compiled test scores and grades, then had us fill in applications for college entrance and scholarships. When I graduated from high school, I had a full-ride merit-based scholarship to the school of my choice, and I was not the only one in my class. I can guarantee that would never had happened without his help. You can bet he has received a thank-you from me and hundreds of others over the course of his career. 

College was dicier, and there really wasn't any support there in those days (when the rocks were still warm and dinosaurs roamed the earth.) I was able to do well and finish in four years with a degree and credential.  But the nuances of college life bypassed me, and there were some gaping holes in my understanding. I'm glad there is now a recognition that first gen students do need some support to enter and complete their college education.

[LacyMay]

@MathQueen your story is so similar to mine. And I loved hearing about your school counselor he sounds like a gem! 

[Nikedagain?]

On 1/8/2020 at 9:15 PM, Snarkasarus Rex said:

By the time my kiddos are ready for college, we will have enough for both of them to attend State U.  They are 12 and (almost) 9...and we are already having discussions about affording college and not breaking the bank of Mom and Dad to do it.  My kids are not going to be high-powered doctors or lawyers...State U is going to be great for them.  If they want to go private, then they’ll have to go to CC first.

William and Mary has a co-enrollment program for Thomas Nelson students to cut down the cost...boom.

Lots and lots of people that I know are lawyers, judges, Deans of medical schools, and great doctors and politicians. 99% went to undergrad and grad at our State school right here in my town.

It does happen!

[Maggie Mae]

1 hour ago, Nikedagain? said:

Lots and lots of people that I know are lawyers, judges, Deans of medical schools, and great doctors and politicians. 99% went to undergrad and grad at our State school right here in my town.

It does happen!

My state doesn't have a medical school or a law school. So they might get a scholarship, but if their parents can't find the cash to put them on a plane to send them to the lower 48 (and secure housing, pay for a meal plan if it's not covered by scholarship), it's UA for them! Which is an awful school, and I recommend no one go there. Fairbanks campus is OK, but with the state cutting the funding by 40% last here, there's no guarantee that the program you start will be there in a year or two. 

[Iamtheway]

On 1/8/2020 at 5:29 PM, Idlewild said:

If you really love books it’s hard to imagine having much in common with someone who never reads and now only does so to please you.

I LOVE books. A lot. My husband does not read very much and doesn’t read fiction at all (except children’s books to our kid). He also only watches dokumentaries and I love tv-shows. We have plenty of things in common and to talk about. He is an interesting, educated person with interests and friends though and didn’t grow up in a brainwashing cult. 

[Born Skeptic]

11 hours ago, Maggie Mae said:

My state doesn't have a medical school or a law school. So they might get a scholarship, but if their parents can't find the cash to put them on a plane to send them to the lower 48 (and secure housing, pay for a meal plan if it's not covered by scholarship), it's UA for them! Which is an awful school, and I recommend no one go there. Fairbanks campus is OK, but with the state cutting the funding by 40% last here, there's no guarantee that the program you start will be there in a year or two. 

The University of Alaska Anchorage has the WWAMI School of Medical Education.  It is a collaborative medical school along with the 5 north western most states.  There is not currently a law school in Alaska, but the Seattle University School of Law runs a satellite campus at Alaska Public University where students can take summer classes and/or spent their 3rd year studying Alaska specific law.  

I know that you know this, but I am sure that people in other countries may not.  By the time a student reaches medical school or law school, they have a (4 year) bachelors degree.  Some also have Masters degrees (1 to 3 years).  By that point, (age 22 or above) students are considered independent.  As a general rule, they are no longer living in their parents homes, eating their food, or depending on them for transportation.  Graduate school loans, scholarships, grants, and assistantships are all based on the student being independent of their parents.  

Many kids from Alaska do choose to go to the "lower 48" for grad school and even undergrad.  When my daughter was a freshman at UF (Florida) her friend in the apartment next door was from Alaska.  She threw all of her stuff in her car and drove.  As she said, "if I don't do it now, I may never have the chance."  She really could not afford to fly home for holidays so she spent 2 Thanksgivings and several other breaks with us.  She had a significant grant from UF to cover her tuition and living expenses. UF rarely offers academic scholarships but they considered her a unique and diverse student.

 

By the way, US News and World Report's 2020 rankings do not rank the U of Alaska poorly.

[raspberrymint]

21 hours ago, LacyMay said:

I think there's always going to be shades of grey in situations like this. I also wouldn't say "count as first generation" as if it's some sort of status symbol or as if first generation students are somehow receiving preferential treatment. It's also not all about financial support. 

A lot of what I found was missing was intangible support. My parents knew nothing about navigating the post secondary world, helping me secure on campus housing, knowing what options were available to me, navigating student aid etc. The fact that your wife attended a post secondary institution (and from the sounds of it so did you) gives your kids a small advantage over a student from a family where no one attended post secondary or potentially even graduated high school. The type of support being provided to first gen students is often to try and make up for some of these knowledge gaps ie access to peer mentors who are also first gen students. 

There's not a black and white divide of privileged and not privileged students, you have legacy students from wealthy homes with Drs and Lawyers as parents with every advantage, you have students from middle income homes with parents that attended post secondary but work as teachers and nurses and you have kids who may be the first in their family to graduate high school. 

 

I went to and graduated from a community college.  I actually wanted to go to Berea, but I'm not first generation myself and I couldn't afford Berea without parental support.  I took a few classes from a different four year college that counted toward my graduation.  I was accepted into a yet another four year college after graduation, but never took classes because I couldn't afford to.  I have an associate's degree and multiple certificates in different fields.  My wife has enough credits for an associate's degree, but can't get one (?) because she was on track for a bachelor's.  That's what she was told, anyway.  She has a GED.  I do not.  We were both homeschooled in high school.  Our younger adult siblings were assisted in college by our respective mothers.  We were not.  We were disapproved of and doubted despite doing nothing actually wrong.  

We probably needed the resources that any student without parental support would need, that was assumed we had.  I wish those resources were optional for every student.  Optional, not required.  I had relatives who offered to pay for a four year if I went through a program for neurodiverse students that had segregated housing and a litany of rules other students were not required to follow.  I said hell no and my family acted like I was an idiot for refusing, but that would have been torture on my sense of justice and would have looked bad in transcripts.

[Maggie Mae]

3 hours ago, Born Skeptic said:

The University of Alaska Anchorage has the WWAMI School of Medical Education.  It is a collaborative medical school along with the 5 north western most states.  There is not currently a law school in Alaska, but the Seattle University School of Law runs a satellite campus at Alaska Public University where students can take summer classes and/or spent their 3rd year studying Alaska specific law.  

They have to have the ability to travel out of state. For most middle class kids that's not an issue. Rural kids get support from various places (scholarships, native corporations, shareholder dividends, PFDs if their parents saved them for them.) Poor kids from Anchorage often don't have the ability to manage this system. We also don't know what the future of WWAMI will be like, as Dunleavy tries to kill the state through his "opening a conversation" bullshit. 

3 hours ago, Born Skeptic said:

Graduate school loans, scholarships, grants, and assistantships are all based on the student being independent of their parents.

I actually did not know that. The fact that those things are available independent of parental support would have been nice to know back when I choose to end my education due to lack of financial support. Navigating the college system in the US is garbage for anyone who doesn't have involved parents or a counselor to help. 

3 hours ago, Born Skeptic said:

 academic scholarships but they considered her a unique and diverse student.

This is well known - students in Alaska have advantages to getting into colleges - so many admissions people want to brag about how diverse they are. It's the process of attending school where so many fail. There's the initial cost, then the travel, the homesickness, the weird food, the new cultural norms, the sheer number of people, the weather, the wardrobe, etc. Those that want out get out though, and manage. Which is why we are experiencing serious problems with brain drain and sinking population numbers. The intelligent and creative and hardworking students are getting out however they can, leaving us with the bible belt freaks in the Mat-Su Valley, those who can't afford it are stuck with sub par education for themselves and their children. And those young adults have to go live in Fairbanks of all places to get a halfway decent education. Why is south central so opposed to intellectualism? 

3 hours ago, Born Skeptic said:

By the way, US News and World Report's 2020 rankings do not rank the U of Alaska poorly.

Looks like they ranked Fairbanks #263 nationally. UAA isn't even nationally ranked, and they lost accreditation for their Education program last year. It's not great, and with the new budget, things are going to get much worse.