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Jeremy and Jinger are at the G3 conference- Jinger is in a very business like tailored trouser suit- while Jeremy is doing his learned geek look in a bow tie and trousers that are far too tight. For someone who’s supposedly interested in fashion he never looks that well dressed, whereas Jinger usually does.

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26 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

Jeremy and Jinger are at the G3 conference- Jinger is in a very business like tailored trouser suit- while Jeremy is doing his learned geek look in a bow tie and trousers that are far too tight. For someone who’s supposedly interested in fashion he never looks that well dressed, whereas Jinger usually does.

I always feel like Jinger misses the mark. She always dresses in business wear and looks too business casual. Her clothes are never particularly hip or trendy.

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In case we thought they might be drifting away from fundieland, the G3 conference indicates NO. It’s the usual line-up of “anti social justice” white males (with token Voddie B.) and three women I could find: FOX political conservative Allie Stuckey, Uber-reformed mom of 7 author Rachel Jancovik, and complementairan queen of “The Excellent Wife” and nouthetic counseling fame Martha Peace. Jeremy is also presenting a workshop, so maybe this is part of his MacArthur (an additional speaker) connections? 

Out of curiosity I googled G3 and there were people upset that in a previous year there were such liberal social-justice advocates as David Platt and John Piper invited to attend. Hahaha! You know you are in the far reaches of fundie-doom when people call Piper and Platt liberal...

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On 1/16/2020 at 4:14 PM, fluffy said:

A number of colleges with big endowments can be surprisingly affordable.

At Harvard, for instance, If your family makes under $65,000, then the tuition is free. If you make under $150,000, then it is ten percent of your income, which is likely less than your state school. Families are still eligible for financial aid even if they make up to $250,000.

I know Rice University in Houston has financial aid that is even more generous than Harvard's. If you have a successful student who's college-bound, it's worth exploring many schools that you might assume are out of reach. 

So let's say I'm from a family that makes under $65,000. Chances are my parents can't afford to send me to a private school. Maybe a Catholic school, but they'll have to bust their asses off to make that tuition. Depending on where I live, the public school is shit. Outdated resources, lack of creative classes like art and music, and possibly more than 35 kids in a class. Many of these kids are going to be Below Basic on standardized tests, have learning delays due to poverty, and get all of the attention in a school that only teaches to the test, because that's where the school's limited funding comes from.

I'm a gifted and talented student. I have an intellectual gift. But that is ignored in my school, which does not have the resources. How the hell can I compete with kids who come from generational wealth? The kids who have been spoonfed the makings of perfect Harvard candidate by their parents, communities, and elite schools? I can't. 

Sure, some lucky one in a million kid will benefit from this. But imo, that doesn't change the fact that Harvard still has legacy admissions and overwhelmingly favors the advantaged. The $65,000 thing exists so we can pat ourselves on the back about how America is a meritocracy, when in reality we have a modern class struggle that looks more like 18th century France than the American Dream™️.

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8 hours ago, BernRul said:

The $65,000 thing exists so we can pat ourselves on the back

There is no doubt about it that the road to a school like Rice, Harvard, etc. is not equitable. Still, $65,000 is not poverty level. I've never made more than that as a college professor. This does not negate your opinion, but I used to teach high school and I've known lots of low-income, talented, and hard-working students who've gone on to some of the best liberal arts colleges and research universities, and I know (bc I was their advisor) what their financial aid offers were. It is a much harder road that relies on a lot of good luck, but it is not impossible. Please know I don't disagree with you that legacy admissions is problematic, and I wish you the best if you are college bound. I'll also add the best advice I was ever given as a student was to apply to everything I was eligible for! If you are a high school student or young adult, you're an accomplished writer and I can almost guarantee you that you would shine on admissions essays. 

Edited by fluffy
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4 hours ago, fluffy said:

Still, $65,000 is not poverty level. I've never made more than that as a college professor.

$98,974 is the average college professor salary in the US, even associate professors earn more than 65.000 according to Wikipedia.

I'm not from the US, post-docs earn shit, but when you finally habilitate as a prof after ages, you make a lot.

Can I ask why you thaught high school? In my experience you either stop after you get your diploma or you stay in academics, which is immensely competitive to get in as it is, usually once you're out you're out.

That's how I know it in Europe and Australia, I just imagine US academia being that different. Self destructive me is still playing around with the idea of adding a clinical PhD (MD-Phd), so I'd be really interested.

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51 minutes ago, squiddysquid said:

$98,974 is the average college professor salary in the US, even associate professors earn more than 65.000 according to Wikipedia.

I'm not from the US, post-docs earn shit, but when you finally habilitate as a prof after ages, you make a lot.

That varies wildly by discipline in the US - medical school and hard science faculty tend to get paid very well, humanities faculty don’t get paid nearly as much.

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On 1/16/2020 at 6:13 PM, Seculardaisy said:

I always feel like Jinger misses the mark. She always dresses in business wear and looks too business casual. Her clothes are never particularly hip or trendy.

I agree. I give Jinger credit for trying to spice up her wardrobe from long skirts and cardigans but every time I see her out I Just feel like she misses the mark. Of course clothing and what looks good is so subjective so people can take my opinion with a grain of salt. I always feel like the clothing she chooses is ill fitting. For example, she’ll be in skinny jeans but they’re clearly too baggy on her - and instead of pairing with a cute flat or bootie she’ll be in chunky heels with a blazer. 

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9 hours ago, fluffy said:

There is no doubt about it that the road to a school like Rice, Harvard, etc. is not equitable. Still, $65,000 is not poverty level. I've never made more than that as a college professor. This does not negate your opinion, but I used to teach high school and I've known lots of low-income, talented, and hard-working students who've gone on to some of the best liberal arts colleges and research universities, and I know (bc I was their advisor) what their financial aid offers were. It is a much harder road that relies on a lot of good luck, but it is not impossible. Please know I don't disagree with you that legacy admissions is problematic, and I wish you the best if you are college bound. I'll also add the best advice I was ever given as a student was to apply to everything I was eligible for! If you are a high school student or young adult, you're an accomplished writer and I can almost guarantee you that you would shine on admissions essays. 

$65,000 is poverty if you have a family with multiple kids, and if thats both parents income combined. Because than the parents are likely working minimum wage jobs with no benefits and no paid time off.

I teach at a low income school. All of my students are poor. And this might make me sound like a bad teacher to some, but none of them are going to Harvard, likely not even the 8 year old who reads on a high school senior level. That's the cold hard truth. And it's not because they aren't smart--my kids are insanely smart, they blow me away. It's because they've been fucked from birth by America's class system and pretending otherwise is a fantasy.

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3 hours ago, LillyP said:

I agree. I give Jinger credit for trying to spice up her wardrobe from long skirts and cardigans but every time I see her out I Just feel like she misses the mark. Of course clothing and what looks good is so subjective so people can take my opinion with a grain of salt. I always feel like the clothing she chooses is ill fitting. For example, she’ll be in skinny jeans but they’re clearly too baggy on her - and instead of pairing with a cute flat or bootie she’ll be in chunky heels with a blazer. 

I notice that with several fundies (and former fundies) including myself. I was forced to dress frumpy my whole life so once I got out on my own & started dressing in jeans I realized I had no idea how to dress. Fast forward to today, 17 years later, and I still don't "have it". I tend to wear baggy (and styles that older ladies wear even though I'm only 42) because I'm afraid to dress too "immodest"....still. I'm not sure if that's Jinger's case but that's definitely what I chalk it up to. 

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17 hours ago, BernRul said:

The $65,000 thing exists so we can pat ourselves on the back about how America is a meritocracy, when in reality we have a modern class struggle that looks more like 18th century France than the American Dream™️.

I certainly don't think America is perfect and our education system needs a lot of work, but hyperbolic statements like this, which are quantifiably false, really undermine any other valuable points you may want to subsequently make. 

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Well to add in another story...I was mostly in private school, went to public school for 1 year, then was homeschooled for 4 years, grew up in and out of fundieland til I decided to leave that life behind me at 19. 10 years later and I'm still healing and learning. All that to say, I came from a very, very poor family in a poor neighborhood. I only went to private school because both I was a "scholarship kid." It gave me a good education though I could say some bad stuff about the conservative Christian aspect of it. When I got to public school, it was like entering an alien world. I experienced huge culture shock, one being that I was so very clearly ahead of everyone. I was doing work in 8th grade that I had already done back in 3rd grade. It was a joke. My teachers really pushed me and encouraged me. They were sure I'd make it to a top-tier, Ivy league school - I got the valedictorian award that year (I didn't even know they had that for middle schools), I was editor of the newspaper, I was in president's council, did leadership summits, won spelling and geography competitions, was in the honor society, and was part of varsity band. But at the end of the day, my parents decided to homeschool me for high school and it fucked all the chances I thought I had. Some of my classmates from that one year in public school did make it out, a few even did get into Harvard and UofC. They are the exception. The absolute vast majority of them did not even graduate. The graduation rate of the local high school was 36% at the time we were entering high school (part of the reason my parents didn't want me going there). I checked again last year and it was up to 51%, a huge improvement. Of course there will always be kids who beat the odds, but as another person who is of mixed ethnicity from a poor neighborhood, in my personal experience, most kids just don't make it, even if they are really smart, for many various factors. I think when you keep climbing out, it's easy to forget just how many people still have never gotten out of poverty, how many people still have never been properly educated, how many people will never get a college degree. 1/3 of Americans have a college degree. Yes, that's a lot, more than ever...but it still means most people don't have one. 

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36 minutes ago, meep said:

Of course there will always be kids who beat the odds, but as another person who is of mixed ethnicity from a poor neighborhood, in my personal experience, most kids just don't make it, even if they are really smart, for many various factors. I think when you keep climbing out, it's easy to forget just how many people still have never gotten out of poverty, how many people still have never been properly educated, how many people will never get a college degree. 1/3 of Americans have a college degree. Yes, that's a lot, more than ever...but it still means most people don't have one. 

My experience is that more than a few really exceptional poor children do make it somehow, they leave the neighborhood and go to the miitary, avoid teen pregnancy, drug addition, and the school to prison pipeline. These individuals just don't get shown on the evening news. The thing is, people shouldn't have to be exceptional to live decently.  Average intelligence white folks can make a decent living WITHOUT a college degree, reference all the $40-$50-$60-$70 an hour skilled labor/construction and heavy equipment operator jobs that are closed to minorities.  I don't think a four year degree is absolutely necessary to have a secure financial footing, but some type of education and/or training for an occurpation that pays a living wage is necessary. 

I live in metro Chicago, my home town, and cannot help but see entrenched generational poverty, and I have thought a lot about the factors that contribute to this.  No forgetting here. There are indeed a lot of factors affecting social mobility: bad schools, poor housing, gentrification, and dysfunctional families among them.  I believe in mentoring programs, after school programs, outreach as done by my alma mater, and other interventions that help steer youth in the right direction. Jesus said the poor will always be with us, but it doesn't have to be as many. We can all make a difference, however small. 

Edited by SilverBeach
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The actual income number is relative 65k is quite comfortable for some and not for others depending on location, student loans, etc. I feel that it’s more about connections and culture. I was the first in my family to try to go to college and it was insanely hard because I didn’t even know how to sign up for classes- I was a sophomore before I realized that I had to take specific classes to get a degree. A lot of that can be over come with outreach programs and mentoring. I was raised in a generally upper middle class area even though I was not so those programs weren’t readily available or at least I didn’t know about them. Point being there’s a “catch up” process to get through when youve never personally known someone who went to college. I think that resources would be the most valuable thing we could ever give someone. Being raised working class lifestyle  I don’t believe Is as important as just not having the resources or the know how to beat the system. 

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18 minutes ago, Daisy0322 said:

Point being there’s a “catch up” process to get through when youve never personally known someone who went to college.

Totally agree. My elite college had many who didn't work and their parents paid tuition in cash. These students also had cars, some of them new cars, when I could hardly afford bus fare!. No resume building unpaid internships for me, I needed to earn money during the summer. No spring break trips, couldn't afford it. So many cultural differences because these students came from a higher socioeconomic bracket than I did and just weren't struggling to survive. But I persevered and closed that gap for my own child. Not easy. My school was very competitive and not very supportive.  If I knew then what I know now I wouldn't have gone there. But nobdy can take my degree from me and it has had some value. 

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5 hours ago, BernRul said:

$65,000 is poverty if you have a family with multiple kids, and if thats both parents income combined. Because than the parents are likely working minimum wage jobs with no benefits and no paid time off.

$65,000 may feel like poverty level when you have several kids needing new school clothes, shoes, and sports uniforms and fees all at the same time - not to mention smart phones and seemingly unending spending money.  The reality is that for a family of 4, $65,000 is 250% of the poverty level,  You would need to have a family of 13 for an annual income of $65,000 to be poverty level. I'm not recommending anyone try to raise 10 kids on that income and I'm not saying that some people at that income aren't living paycheck to paycheck.  It just doesn't meet the definition of poverty.  According to the US Federal reserve, the median family income in the US in 2017 was $61,372.  

Twenty percent of Harvard families pay nothing for their students to attend.  Families who earn between $65,000 and $150,000, pay between zero and ten percent of their annual income.  Harvard financial aid is structured so that no undergraduate student has to take out student loans to attend.  Some still do, but that is a choice.  I'm not shilling for Harvard.  Many elite schools have similarly generous financial policies.  

 

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8 hours ago, BernRul said:

I teach at a low income school. All of my students are poor. And this might make me sound like a bad teacher to some, but none of them are going to Harvard, likely not even the 8 year old who reads on a high school senior level. That's the cold hard truth. And it's not because they aren't smart--my kids are insanely smart, they blow me away. It's because they've been fucked from birth by America's class system and pretending otherwise is a fantasy.

I don’t think it makes you a bad teacher, but placing limits like that on your students does make you a less effective one. Your position is also demonstrably untrue. Poor students do go to elite universities. Do they have to work harder than rich legacy students? Yes. Is it fair? Absolutely not. But it does happen.

I actually agree with a lot of what you’ve said in this thread. But speaking in such absolutes that are easily debunked is not helping your argument. Also, the fact that you can look at an obviously bright 8 year old child and place limits on what you think they will be able to accomplish in life just because they come from a poor family...that’s just sad and wrong.


 

 

Edited by ShesCrafty
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32 minutes ago, ShesCrafty said:

Also, the fact that you can look at an obviously bright 8 year old child and place limits on what you think they will be able to accomplish in life just because they come from a poor family...that’s just sad and wrong.

This becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I would not allow my child to have such a teacher.

34 minutes ago, ShesCrafty said:

Poor students do go to elite universities. Do they have to work harder than rich legacy students? Yes. Is it fair? Absolutely not. But it does happen.

I'm a living witness to this. 

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9 hours ago, BernRul said:

I teach at a low income school. All of my students are poor. And this might make me sound like a bad teacher to some, but none of them are going to Harvard, likely not even the 8 year old who reads on a high school senior level. That's the cold hard truth. And it's not because they aren't smart--my kids are insanely smart, they blow me away. It's because they've been fucked from birth by America's class system and pretending otherwise is a fantasy.

You don’t sound like a “bad” teacher, but you do sound discouraged & burnt out. 

Edited by Giraffe
Burned out?
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4 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

My experience is that more than a few really exceptional poor children do make it somehow, they leave the neighborhood and go to the miitary, avoid teen pregnancy, drug addition, and the school to prison pipeline. These individuals just don't get shown on the evening news. The thing is, people shouldn't have to be exceptional to live decently.  Average intelligence white folks can make a decent living WITHOUT a college degree, reference all the $40-$50-$60-$70 an hour skilled labor/construction and heavy equipment operator jobs that are closed to minorities.  I don't think a four year degree is absolutely necessary to have a secure financial footing, but some type of education and/or training for an occurpation that pays a living wage is necessary. 

I live in metro Chicago, my home town, and cannot help but see entrenched generational poverty, and I have thought a lot about the factors that contribute to this.  No forgetting here. There are indeed a lot of factors affecting social mobility: bad schools, poor housing, gentrification, and dysfunctional families among them.  I believe in mentoring programs, after school programs, outreach as done by my alma mater, and other interventions that help steer youth in the right direction. Jesus said the poor will always be with us, but it doesn't have to be as many. We can all make a difference, however small. 

Skilled labor/ construction and heavy equipment operator jobs are closed to monorities?

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10 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

This becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I would not allow my child to have such a teacher.

I'm a living witness to this. 

I went to a state school, not a top ranked university or anything, but my parents were fairly poor and neither graduated from high school. While they may not have completely understood my desire to go to college, they loved me and God help the teacher that ever had the nerve to insinuate that I was not able to accomplish something because we didn’t have money. 

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@ShesCrafty

I also taught in a low income school (the poorest congressional district in New York) -- and I would have to disagree. I elected one gifted boy and one girl from each grade (30 kids per grade) into a program that guaranteed, from 6th grade onward, to pay for their college degree if they went to prep class every Saturday and did their summer school program. The admissions director at the school actually participated in this program as well and had recently graduated from DePaul. 

Besides that program, there were about 5 other programs that worked in a similar way. Some of them moved the kids out of my school and into private schools and paid for it. Some of them only paid for private high school. Some simply provided test prep to get into the test-in public schools. Regardless, for the kids that had ambition, were of average or higher achievement, and had parents that supported education, there is a very good chance they would go to college & free at that. I don't doubt that one of them might make it to Harvard, but if not Harvard, then any number of other highly selective schools. 

Even for the kids who did not get into any of these programs, my school had a counselor that followed throughout high school, did SAT test prep, created "going away to college" kits with dorm essentials & bedding, offered cash incentives for coming to check-in meetings, helped them find part time jobs, etc. 

This school may be a diamond in the rough, but those programs weren't offered to JUST that school. They were available for any low income students. 

I know some rural areas, or depending on the state, that these programs might not be available. But there is evidence that you CAN get out, it just might take some incredible resilience and one or two teachers that believe in you.

 

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8 minutes ago, Not that josh's mom said:

Skilled labor/ construction and heavy equipment operator jobs are closed to monorities?

Be a minority and try to get in the unions that control the work and you'll see. Or just go by any construction site and observe how many minorities are working in skilled positions. It's not 100% exclusion, but it is tokenism. Sometimes minority participation is required to get certain contracts, so out come the blacks and females. These jobs are often legacy, with the older men getting their relatives in the required apprenticeships which are often sponsored by the unions. Part of the old-boys network and institutional racism that makes it hard for non-whites to get these lucrative jobs. It's a problem with all the skilled trades too, plumbing, HVAC, and electrical. There are many barriers to entry for minorities. My knowledge is limited to metro Chicago.

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14 hours ago, squiddysquid said:

$98,974 is the average college professor salary in the US, even associate professors earn more than 65.000 according to Wikipedia.

I'm not from the US, post-docs earn shit, but when you finally habilitate as a prof after ages, you make a lot.

Can I ask why you thaught high school? In my experience you either stop after you get your diploma or you stay in academics, which is immensely competitive to get in as it is, usually once you're out you're out.

That's how I know it in Europe and Australia, I just imagine US academia being that different. Self destructive me is still playing around with the idea of adding a clinical PhD (MD-Phd), so I'd be really interested.

Those sorts of numbers are kinda totally bs. The "average" works in funny ways-only tends to average the full timers and never fucking includes adjuncts. Who are the MAJORITY of educators ar many institutions. 

https://www.npr.org/2013/09/22/224946206/adjunct-professor-dies-destitute-then-sparks-debate

That article is years old and, imo, its gotten worse not better.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/586168/

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