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Josiah & Lauren 13: Drift, Duggars, Drift (Miscarriage Content Warning)

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AussieKrissy
16 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

Why would Lauren agree to have her miscarriage used as promo for the show? Maybe she didn't have a choice? Regardless, poor Lauren. I don't know, but I could imagine it would be tougher since it's the first pregnancy, if she had four already that been normal, easy pregnancies and births, then you at least know that it can happen, but since it's the first one, you don't have that reassurance. 

to minister to people of course... (sarcasm) she has to keep sweet follow the gravy train and provide encouragement and godly strength to other women.

As soon as I read somewhere that Lauren had Coeliacs, I suspected she may have a trouble with miscarriages as it is linked to an increased risk. 

FUCK YOU TRASH arse tv producer if you used such a triggering situation as a teaser.

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VeryNikeSeamstress

I wonder how much male fundies actually understand about female physiology before they get married. I mean, they know about Legos and how babies are made, but I doubt they'd know much about period, cramps, miscarriages etc. Not to mention the mood swings that come with female hormonal shifts brought about by PMS/pregnancy/miscarriage and how they can be supportive. One would hope they'd learn something to prepare them, but in this culture of joyful availability and female submission, I doubt it.

Edited by VeryNikeSeamstress

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Rachel333
4 hours ago, Coconut Flan said:

The intention and action of an abortion is to not deliver a live baby, therefore, it is injected before the procedure.  They are two separate and distinct procedures.

It's not always true that the fetus is injected before the procedure. That's usually what happens in the US (though even so it's not always an injection) because of "partial birth abortion" laws, but outside the US labor induction abortions are very common and do not necessarily involve feticidal injections. In those cases transient fetal survival is not uncommon.

From this paper:

Quote

. Transient survival with misoprostol for labor induction abortion at greater than 18 weeks ranges from 0% to 50% [51] and has been observed in up to 13% of abortions performed with high-dose oxytocin [52]. Factors associated with a higher likelihood of transient fetal survival with labor induction abortion include increasing gestational age, decreasing abortion interval and the use of nonfeticidal inductive agents such as the PGE1 analogues.

The intent is not to have a surviving baby, but abortion can involve delivering a live fetus.

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xlurker

I had a loss at a bit under 20 weeks.  It was devastating and heartbreaking.   I found out I was expecting my youngest on my loss's due date.  I didn't realize how worried I was about that pregnancy until my ultrasound where I held my breathe until they found her and broke out in tears, sobbing actually, when they showed me the heartbeat.  My heart goes out to anyone that has suffered a loss

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Rachel333

Regarding blaming women for miscarriages, I think fundies do that a lot less than people think. I've heard of many fundie women I knew having miscarriages and I never heard anyone blame them at all. I know self-blame can, sadly, be an issue even among non-religious people, and I'm sure women often feel more subtly blamed, but I don't think it's true at all that, as I've often seen stated here and elsewhere, fundies explicitly teach that miscarriage is the fault of the mother.

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Coconut Flan
18 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

It's not always true that the fetus is injected before the procedure. That's usually what happens in the US

And since Michelle Duggar, the person referenced is in the US, US policies and procedures would be the applicable ones, wouldn't they?

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Rachel333
15 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

And since Michelle Duggar, the person referenced is in the US, US policies and procedures would be the applicable ones, wouldn't they?

What you said was, "The intention and action of an abortion is to not deliver a live baby, therefore, it is injected before the procedure.  They are two separate and distinct procedures." so I took that as a statement about abortion in general, contrasting abortion to what happened with the Duggars. (And even in the US it's not always an injection. Cutting the umbilical cord prior to the procedure is another method.)

I agree with your overall point, but I just think it's important to have accurate facts. Your statement didn't sound right to me as an absolute, so it prompted me to do some research and learn some new things. Sorry if I got too distracted by facts instead of the overall point. I unfortunately have a tendency to do that pretty often.

Edit: That came across poorly too. I'm not expressing myself well tonight. I meant the first post as just "here are more facts about abortion," not as a way to be confrontational. It often doesn't come across in the way that I meant it, though, and it's a recurring issue with me that I get too interested other details that I miss the point of the conversation. Social skills like that don't come naturally to me and I've worked a lot on improving them but I feel like this still happens a lot and it's discouraging.

Edited by Rachel333
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Rio

I was afraid during my first pregnancy, I was 38, several of my friends had miscarriages and I kept bargaining with God and asking to just have the baby be healthy. Now I have a mouthy 16-year-old and all this reminds me how grateful I should be for him.

Between my pregnancies, my grandmother, who was an eternal optimist, passed away. I kept her spirit with me and did not worry much with my second pregnancy (now a mouthy 15-year-old).

One of my closest friends just baldly told me that I can never understand her pain with her miscarriages, and I’m sure she is right. Such a sad event.

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Sky with diamonds
3 hours ago, SpurgysingsHipHop said:

No sympathy here, if you/re so clueless as to what is going on when your teen bride is having a miscarriage, you shouldnt be engaging in the s3x

What gave you the impression that they were clueless about having a miscarriage? 

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Rachel333
2 minutes ago, Sky with diamonds said:

What gave you the impression that they were clueless about having a miscarriage? 

It's probably that Josiah said he didn't understand what her symptoms meant. I actually can't really criticize him for not realizing what was going on. Even a lot of women don't always understand what's going on with their bodies.

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Sky with diamonds
2 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

It's probably that Josiah said he didn't understand what her symptoms meant. I actually can't really criticize him for not realizing what was going on. Even a lot of women don't always understand what's going on with their bodies.

I'm not going to criticize Si or Lauren either. I couldn't. I just hope they have the support that they needed and might still need. 

But I will criticize TLC using it as a way to get ratings. I caught the end of tonight's show and to use that as a cliffhanger...that's something else.

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singsingsing

Josiah said that he didn't really understand what was going on when Lauren was feeling sick and having cramps and her mother was over helping her. None of them knew what was going on. Lauren herself apparently did not think she was having a miscarriage at the time and thought she might have been reacting to gluten. If Lauren and her mother didn't really know what was going on, it stands to reason Josiah wouldn't either.

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Vivi_music
2 hours ago, VeryNikeSeamstress said:

I wonder how much male fundies actually understand about female physiology before they get married. I mean, they know about Legos and how babies are made, but I doubt they'd know much about period, cramps, miscarriages etc. Not to mention the mood swings that come with female hormonal shifts brought about by PMS/pregnancy/miscarriage and how they can be supportive. One would hope they'd learn something to prepare them, but in this culture of joyful availability and female submission, I doubt it.

You don't even have to be fundie to be honest. Mr. Music and his brother were raised by their grandparents. Grandma and Grandpa did a wonderful job in the circumstances, and from what I gathered, loved and cared for these boys as their own. That being said, they were from another generation. Grandma basically did not tell much to her grandsons about how the female body works, and Mr. Music having no sisters or other mother figure around, basically had no way to know the private stuff. Of course Mr. Music went to public school contrary to Josiah or most fundie males. Because of that, he did learn how the female reproductive system works. But despite that, living together was his first time actually seeing how bad periods can be, what PMS can do to my mood (and my body - damn bloating), the different kind of vaginal discharge their are, or how birthcontrol could affect me.

So how can even Josiah completly know what a miscarriage is? I bet my very secular and French boyfriend would also be dumbstrucked with fear if it happened to me. I don't even think I know myself what the signs of a miscarriage are (never having experienced one). Kind of hard to snark on that.

Edited by Vivi_music

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Mama Mia
5 hours ago, VeryNikeSeamstress said:

I wonder how much male fundies actually understand about female physiology before they get married. I mean, they know about Legos and how babies are made, but I doubt they'd know much about period, cramps, miscarriages etc. Not to mention the mood swings that come with female hormonal shifts brought about by PMS/pregnancy/miscarriage and how they can be supportive. One would hope they'd learn something to prepare them, but in this culture of joyful availability and female submission, I doubt it.

There’s a thread somewhere on here about the Sex Ed book both men and women they are said to receive prior to marriage, ‘Created for Each Other’? Something like that. It is remarkably thorough. I was shocked. I don’t recall if there was any section on miscarriage in particular, but skimming it, I wished some (all) of my extremely worldly, experienced, non- fundie partners had that much detailed knowledge. 

Also, this is why I’m glad they are addressing it - if it truly is their choice to do so - pregnancy loss really isn’t talked about, still. This could be an actually helpful way to use their platform to communicate. 

 

Edited by Mama Mia

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subsaharanafrica
5 hours ago, Vivi_music said:

You don't even have to be fundie to be honest.

True. Mr. Subsaharanafrica thought that women urinated out of their vaginas for an embarrassingly long time after we moved in together. 

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VelociRapture

My husband and I immediately knew what was likely happening when I started to miscarry. That said:

- My husband was fortunate to be raised by a mother who had no qualms about discussing that stuff around them, so he had a good idea of what to expect. 

- We had both read and researched about early pregnancy symptoms to know what to expect and we wound up learning about miscarriage symptoms that way.

- I had had a weird feeling that something wasn’t right a few days prior to the miscarriage starting. I don’t know how to explain it - I just had a gut feeling things weren’t right.

- It’s kind of tough not to immediately think miscarriage when the first visible sign is bright red blood. 

From what I know, the cramping and discomfort felt during a gluten-induced reaction sounds like it could be similar to what is felt during a miscarriage. If cramping was her first symptom to pop up then I find it very easy to believe that they honestly didn’t realize what was wrong. Josiah doesn’t deserve blame for not understanding immediately, especially since Lauren and her mother -who has had nine or so kids herself- did not realize either. If Si acted like an asshole in the aftermath that’d be another story entirely, but we have no evidence of that being the case at this point. 

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Kailash
13 hours ago, SpurgysingsHipHop said:

No sympathy here, if you/re so clueless as to what is going on when your teen bride is having a miscarriage, you shouldnt be engaging in the s3x

If you are so clueless to not realize that pregnant women also get sick and that some illnesses share symptoms of miscarriage, you shouldn’t be commenting on this. If you cannot even type the word sex, perhaps you are too immature to discuss this with adults. 

Edited by Kailash
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WiseGirl
11 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

As soon as I read somewhere that Lauren had Coeliacs, I suspected she may have a trouble with miscarriages as it is linked to an increased risk

Good insight on this. A lot of people don't realize some of the surprising ways Celiac can affect a person. It's more than just avoiding  gluten.

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Buzzard
14 hours ago, tabitha2 said:

It stands to  how they responded to Anna’s miscarriage is a pretty clear indicator of how they will respond to Lauren’s.   

Except Anna's miscarriage (in fundiedom) could be attributed to the sins of Joshly, similar to Michelle's sin of birth control.  Will they accept that this is just a fact of life and statistical probability given how many fertile females there are, or will they question what is wrong in their lives?

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tabitha2

More likely they will attribute it to Gods will, testing their faith and pray more. The Duggars   Or at least the females are more than well Aqquainted with obstetricians and the perils of pregnancy anyway. They will know not all pregnancies will take. 

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Waffle Time
Mela99

I just hope this — and that crying miscarriage photo Si took of Lauren — was her choice and she chose to share this with everyone, free of pressure.

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Buzzard
13 hours ago, FleeJanaFree said:

@Buzzard They staged that?! That is so many kinds of fucked up I can't count.

Theres a lot of discussion about it when it originally aired.  The tech wouldnt have been the one to tell them the baby was dead, that would have been confirmed by the Dr.  Also, the whole reaction was so... off.  

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SillyDillys

My heart goes out to Lauren. When I was 20 I found out I was pregnant. I was absolutely terrified and going back and forth on whether or not I should terminate or keep it. The father was an irresponsible ass, my mother was conservative and would have lost her mind. Not to mention I was a sophomore in college working a shitty retail job

Around a week later I felt cramping and began to bleed through my pants during an exam and I'd gone to the restroom and passed it. I remember just going back to the exam and feeling numb. I went through so many emotions. Even now, at 22 it still messes me up if i dwell on it. I cant imagine having to suffer that on top of it being public knowledge and being under procreating pressure like Lauren

The pain of a miscarriage, whether unintended pregnancy or not never really goes away.

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They call me madre

I keep hearing people blame Lauren’s Celiac disease for her miscarriage.  Here’s my opinion..... if she indeed has been “diagnosed” and is being “properly treated” for celiacs disease, untreated celiac disease has indeed a high rate of miscarriages sadly.  If she is actually under the care of an autoimmune doctor for the celiac (sadly I think with being married to Josiah they would listen to the Duggars, since in marriage now the “man” is the boss.....they don’t seem to get proper medical care.  Unlike her parents that seem smart enough to get medical care for their children), and she went about this pregnancy without the proper way to handle a pregnant as this one...... it may have been the cause and could have maybe been prevented with the proper doctors and care to Lauren.  

I truly feel awful for The couple, especially Lauren.  She’s seems so sweet.  It is truly an unfortunate thing.  

The fact that the  JB and TLC may have  intentionally useD this to UP THE RATINGS makes it absolutely despicable and sickening!  

Edited by They call me madre

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