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Jellybean

Josiah & Lauren 13: Drift, Duggars, Drift (Miscarriage Content Warning)

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pook
4 hours ago, ihaveanexamintwodays said:

in the article she confirms she miscarried in October, that she suddenly felt sick and crampy one day a few weeks after they learned they were expecting, and that Josiah had no idea what was going on or how to help but Lauren's mom was able to be there for her. 

 

really makes me wonder about that anti-abortion film showing they went to, that they posted about on instagram in mid-October.....they also went to that "Loving Choices" pregnancy center "banquet" with the Seewalds in late October. Miscarriage likely just re-affirmed their pro-life stance. 

I am very sorry to hear of Lauren's loss especially since pregnancy and babies are so much tied in to her identity and purpose in life.  I have never had a miscarriage but my sister had 4, tried IVF which did not take, and then eventually went on to adopt.  I do however remember that when I was very early in my pregnancy with the oldest Mini Pook, I had the slightest bit of cramping at the time of implantation and was terrified that I was losing the pregnancy. 

What bothers me however is that according to Lauren's vision for a Utopian pro-birth society, does she not realize that women who do miscarry can be met with skepticism, accused of hiding an abortion, and even jailed?  Also what about Michelle?  She had a C-section at 25 weeks to save her own life from severe pre-eclampsia.  Otherwise I promise you she surely would have died because PE can be deadly especially presenting so early on.  I have only seen cases as early as 27 weeks, which for the record did not have the happiest of outcomes.  So if Josee had not survived then technically this would be considered a late term abortion.

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Depressed
Sky with diamonds
2 hours ago, VineHeart137 said:

SiRen posted a message about their loss on Instagram as well. They make a point to say to other loss parents that it's "not your fault" so hopefully neither of them is harboring any guilt that they are being punished by God for something.

 

My heart goes out to them both. That actually is one of the most heartfelt posts I've ever read from any Duggar.

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singsingsing
19 minutes ago, pook said:

So if Josee had not survived then technically this would be considered a late term abortion.

(Content warning for fairly frank talk of abortion and pregnancy/birth complications)

I don't think this is the case. A C-section performed with the knowledge that the baby had quite a good chance of surviving, the hope that it would survive, and the intention to do everything possible to help it survive, would not be an abortion. And I believe that if the fetus had already died in utero, performing a C-section, while it would purposely end the pregnancy, would also not be an abortion because it wouldn't result in the fetus's death (the fetus was already dead). I may be wrong about that - either way, I don't think that fundies would view performing a C-section to end a pregnancy that no longer involved a living fetus would view that the same way as abortion. Several fundies have had D&C's, for example, including Erin Paine.

Despite what fundies would have you think, this is a grey area even for them. Their opinion tends to be 'if the baby has to come out, fine, but then do literally everything you possibly can to save its life'. I have also heard several fundies (possibly including Duggars, but I can't remember specifically who now) state that if it were truly a choice between the mother's life and the baby's, they would choose to end the pregnancy to save the mother (this is kind of a no-brainer even for fundies, since if you're not near viability and continuing the pregnancy is going to kill you, the baby's going to die too either way). Their rationale for still being rabidly against late term abortion is that such instances are supposedly extremely uncommon.

Well, uncommon isn't impossible. In my experience, fundies never think that these things will happen to them. They never think that they'll be the ones dealing with choosing between abortion and seriously endangering the mother's life, between abortion and carrying a fetus missing most of its brain to term and letting it die a slow agonizing death over hours or days if it even survives birth - just like it's not going to be their teenage daughter who gets pregnant, or their son who turns out to be transgender, or their sister who winds up in an abusive relationship... etc. And then when it does happen to them, often you'll find their tune mysteriously changes and suddenly they're the exception to the rule ('the only moral abortion is my abortion').

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Coconut Flan
49 minutes ago, pook said:

So if Josee had not survived then technically this would be considered a late term abortion.

No it wouldn't.  I wish this wouldn't be repeated.  It would have been a death after birth.  The intention and the result were to save the life of the mother and the baby.  The intention and action of an abortion is to not deliver a live baby, therefore, it is injected before the procedure.  They are two separate and distinct procedures.

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Bobology

I'm not sure of the date of their pregnancy, but it seems their due date would have been at least close to Jessa & Ben's 3rd due date. That will be a time when Lauren & Josiah will need a lot of sensitive support and love. It also might be why Jessa & Ben waited longer to announce. 

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QuiverFullofBooks

I feel so sorry for them both, especially Lauren. Jinger didn’t seem to be pressured as much, possibly because she’s not living in the Duggar borg. I definitely get the vibe that Josiah is desperate to prove that he’s been doing his part to make babies for Jesus.

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pook
5 minutes ago, Coconut Flan said:

No it wouldn't.  I wish this wouldn't be repeated.  It would have been a death after birth.  The intention and the result were to save the life of the mother and the baby.  The intention and action of an abortion is to not deliver a live baby, therefore, it is injected before the procedure.  They are two separate and distinct procedures.

Good point.  I am always happy to learn and look at things from a different perspective.  I realize now that I was wrong and probably just projecting my dislike of the Duggar belief system onto Michelle and in a nonfactual manner.  In other words, I guess I was trying to call her out at her own game but didn't understand the rules and failed miserably.

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HarryPotterFan
29 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I have also heard several fundies (possibly including Duggars, but I can't remember specifically who now) state that if it were truly a choice between the mother's life and the baby's, they would choose to end the pregnancy to save the mother (this is kind of a no-brainer even for fundies, since if you're not near viability and continuing the pregnancy is going to kill you, the baby's going to die too either way).

Though I’ve also seen people vehemently deny that there would ever be a scenario where a woman would have to  abort to save her life. This was the reaction of some people to NY’s new late term abortion law. It might be mostly men who think this.

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TuringMachine

1988981120_ScreenShot2019-02-11at1_32_27PM.thumb.png.2d7cdecc90f642171d2688e602b31cef.png

This part makes me so angry at JB and Michelle, and all the parents that sell their children to TV networks. 

They wanted to keep it private, but because they're the Duggars, they're constantly bombarded with pregnancy questions. My heart breaks for Lauren not being able to grieve in peace. Sure, they chose to stay in the spotlight, but I don't think it's fair to expect a teenager to fully understand the consequences of being on a tv show.

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Shouldabeenacowboy
16 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

1988981120_ScreenShot2019-02-11at1_32_27PM.thumb.png.2d7cdecc90f642171d2688e602b31cef.png

This part makes me so angry at JB and Michelle, and all the parents that sell their children to TV networks. 

They wanted to keep it private, but because they're the Duggars, they're constantly bombarded with pregnancy questions. My heart breaks for Lauren not being able to grieve in peace. Sure, they chose to stay in the spotlight, but I don't think it's fair to expect a teenager to fully understand the consequences of being on a tv show.

I agree with you, but sadly, not just the Duggars. It's never OK to question the status of anyone's uterus!!! 

I am saddened at their loss (questionable beliefs disclaimer, etc.) but their message shows a level of maturity I was honestly not expecting of them. It is sad they spoke up because people bombarded them with questions, but it is good they spoke up about it not being a couple's fault (given the ideas in their cult). 

 

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Galbin
21 minutes ago, HarryPotterFan said:

Though I’ve also seen people vehemently deny that there would ever be a scenario where a woman would have to  abort to save her life. This was the reaction of some people to NY’s new late term abortion law. It might be mostly men who think this.

A late term abortion literally takes days to complete. Hence why it is never used in an emergant situation. An emergency C-section on the other hand gets the baby out quickly, at which point both mother and baby can be saved.  The baby may die, but that is not the intention.

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Carm_88
1 hour ago, Bobology said:

I'm not sure of the date of their pregnancy, but it seems their due date would have been at least close to Jessa & Ben's 3rd due date. That will be a time when Lauren & Josiah will need a lot of sensitive support and love. It also might be why Jessa & Ben waited longer to announce. 

Nah. I doubt that. Jessa and Ben always announce a little later. They were never announce as soon as the pregnancy test dried people. 

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Tired
SassyPantswithASideofClass

Oh Lauren, my heart aches for you. It was NOT your fault. From this NON-fundie mother, I am sending you hugs and bawling my eyes out with you. I have never lost a baby before, and I can't even imagine your pain. Don't let Jboob and ME-chelle and the others make you feel less. I agree with everyone, having a camera shoved in your face as you are grieving the loss of your child is so cruel. Knowing ME-chelle and Jboob and their greed; they probably won't even consider Lauren's emotions nor will they consider Josiah's.

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Depressed
tabitha2

It stands to  how they responded to Anna’s miscarriage is a pretty clear indicator of how they will respond to Lauren’s.   

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singsingsing
1 hour ago, HarryPotterFan said:

Though I’ve also seen people vehemently deny that there would ever be a scenario where a woman would have to  abort to save her life. This was the reaction of some people to NY’s new late term abortion law. It might be mostly men who think this.

Oh yeah, there are nutjobs who think abortion is wrong even in the case of an ectopic pregnancy. That makes me shudder!

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mollysmom
6 hours ago, mstee said:

My first pregnancy ended in an early miscarriage and I couldn’t even talk about it without sobbing for months. I remember my boss asking me what was wrong (I guess I looked upset) and I told her I couldn’t talk about what was wrong without crying. I couldn’t even think about it without crying. I was a total mess. Of course, everyone handles it differently.  I got pregnant (with my now daughter) soon after and it really stuck with me. I didn’t feel bonded to my baby my entire pregnancy. I was scared to bond with her in utero. It all changed and became positive once she was born, but geez. It was rough. 

I commend Lauren for having the strength to open up about it and I hope that she is healing alright. Even though it it’s common, it doesn’t make it any less tough. 

 

I just want to hug you! :( 

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SpurgysingsHipHop

No sympathy here, if you/re so clueless as to what is going on when your teen bride is having a miscarriage, you shouldnt be engaging in the s3x

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VelociRapture

A gentle reminder that there is no right or wrong way to react to a loss like this and that there is no right or wrong point in time to announce a pregnancy. Some women and couples find genuine comfort in having others know early on because that want support if anything goes wrong. Others prefer to handle things more privately. Both are equally valid options.

As for SiRen, they stated something about how they wanted their marriage to be a testimony to others when they got married - that means sharing the ups and the downs they experience to try to show others how a “Godly” couple handles things. I find it easy to believe they genuinely wanted to share this with the public and there’s nothing wrong with that. They are both very young and (probably) lacking in critical thinking areas, but they’re also adults who have the right to tell TLC no if they didn’t want to share this with the world. TLC should know better than to exploit the legitimate pain of a young couple and they deserve criticism if (when) they do so, but SiRen is also somewhat responsible for their own choices as well. 

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mstee
48 minutes ago, mollysmom said:

I just want to hug you! :( 

Thanks 🤗. Virtual hugs back at you. FJ has been so supportive. You guys really are a special group of people, and I’m grateful I have this community to share life stuff with.

I hope that Lauren had time to process it all before she made the announcement. I don’t fault her for announcing early; it’s just a personal choice. And I don’t think you go into your first pregnancy expecting to suffer a miscarriage. Tough situation. I hope Josiah was supportive. Those hormones are no joke. 

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singsingsing

I just want to point out that Josiah said he didn’t really know what was going on when Lauren didn’t know either. She was feeling sick and cramping but she did not know she was having a miscarriage. So it’s not like Lauren was like, “Oh no, I’m miscarrying” and Josiah had no clue what was happening.

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anjulibai
6 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I just want to point out that Josiah said he didn’t really know what was going on when Lauren didn’t know either. She was feeling sick and cramping but she did not know she was having a miscarriage. So it’s not like Lauren was like, “Oh no, I’m miscarrying” and Josiah had no clue what was happening.

Even if that's what happened, I wouldn't blame him for not knowing. He might not have known any of the specifics that happen with a miscarriage - many people, men and women, don't. I'm not even sure, and I've had two babies. 

With my first baby, I had a miscarriage scare and when I told my husband, he just sort of stood there and said "what do we do?" He tried to comfort me and make it all better, but he was scared, too, and completely unsure how to act. He wasn't insensitive, it's just an experience he'd never had before.

I could see Josiah acting like my husband, especially upon realizing that yes a miscarriage was happening. 

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Glasgowghirl

I feel for them, they were obviously happy to be expecting and being in the public eye especially when your family is known for having a lot of children means that a lot of well meaning people ask when are they going to have a baby. I hope no one made them discuss it now. 

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anjulibai

To those that wonder how fundies react to miscarriages when the couples do everything right, I think it's the same way they react when anything bad happens to the supposedly godly and True Christians:'

They say god is testing them and they just have to have faith; god works in mysterious ways and always has a reason. 

When something bad happens to others, it's a judgment from god. When it happens to them, it's god's will. 

Just one of many double standards they have. 

*I'm not trying to imply that Lauren deserved to miscarry (she didn't), but that neither did Michelle for using birth control. 

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FleeJanaFree

@Buzzard They staged that?! That is so many kinds of fucked up I can't count.

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singsingsing
9 minutes ago, FleeJanaFree said:

@Buzzard They staged that?! That is so many kinds of fucked up I can't count.

I don't think we know for sure, but it's definitely been speculated. I think people have pointed out certain inconsistencies with how they were told during the ultrasound that the baby had died. It wasn't very realistic (I've never been in that position so I can't really comment on that myself). It could have been edited weirdly, but reality shows tend to be mostly staged, so... 😕

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