Josie and Kelton 3: Living in the White Evangelical Bubble

[metheglyn]

On 12/26/2018 at 1:52 PM, Palimpsest said:

Erin Bates:

• graduated magna cum laude with a BA in music ministry, Crown College of the Bible.

Tori Bates:

• graduated magna cum laude with Bachelors of Science in Elementary Education, Crown College of the Bible.

Carlin Bates:

• attending Crown College of the Bible for BA in Music.

I just wanted to clarify this. Despite what any of the Bateses may have said in public/on social media/etc., Crown College does *not* offer a BA or a BS, as it is not certified/accredited to do so.  Rather, most of its degrees are "Bachelor of Biblical Studies in..."  (BBS) degrees. Note: Through its School of Trades and Technology Crown *is* accredited to provide the cosmetology license that Josie earned. 

The degree Erin earned was a Bachelor of Biblical Studies in Music Ministry. This is likely the same degree that Carlin was originally pursuing, though I don't recall for certain. (See this page: https://thecrowncollege.edu/academics/school-of-ministry/)

Tori earned a Bachelor of Biblical Studies in Elementary Education. (See this page: https://thecrowncollege.edu/academics/school-of-education/) 

Carlin is reported to have transferred her in-progress Crown BBS credits to Liberty and is supposedly currently pursuing a degree in Interdisciplinary Studies, which results in either an actual BA or BS. (See this page for details https://www.liberty.edu/academics/arts-sciences/inds/index.cfm?PID=36227)

This doesn't mean that Erin and Tori didn't work hard and genuinely earn their degrees, but they are not accredited BAs/BSs, don't have the same requirements as BAs/BSs, and will not be accepted as qualifications for many jobs outside of their own religious sphere.

[nokidsmom]

23 hours ago, metheglyn said:

This doesn't mean that Erin and Tori didn't work hard and genuinely earn their degrees, but they are not accredited BAs/BSs, don't have the same requirements as BAs/BSs, and will not be accepted as qualifications for many jobs outside of their own religious sphere.

To be honest, I find this to be rather sad.  Both do the work necessary to earn the degree but due to the programs being non-accredited, the degrees will not hold much water in the real world.   This won't bother them, of course, as in their limited world, a BA in Biblical Studies of Whatever is perfectly acceptable.  Not sure if they even know the difference.  But what if sometime in the future, either attempts to get a position that requires a accredited degree, again not knowing the difference, and they are turned down?  Could be a cold dose of reality.

Based on this, if Carlin transferred her credits to Liberty, that's a good thing for if/when she completes the program. 

[HurricaneBells]

Hmmmm ? They look very happy here

[VelociRapture]

9 hours ago, HurricaneBells said:

Hmmmm ? They look very happy here

I’m getting really strong 1980s “I’m the villain in a bad Wall Street movie!” or “I’m going to bulldoze all your houses to make a golf course!” vibes from Kelton in this photo. 

[Flossie]

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

I’m getting really strong 1980s “I’m the villain in a bad Wall Street movie!” or “I’m going to bulldoze all your houses to make a golf course!” vibes from Kelton in this photo. 

OMG, you're right!  He does look like a mustache twirling businessman and his trophy wife!

[formergothardite]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

I’m getting really strong 1980s “I’m the villain in a bad Wall Street movie!” or “I’m going to bulldoze all your houses to make a golf course!” vibes from Kelton in this photo. 

The slicked back hair and the car salesman smile really does make him look like he could be in an 80's movie as a villain! 

[singsingsing]

I've always thought Kelton looked like the quintessential leader of the Young Republicans Club, like an intern at the Trump White House, or the kind of dude who might be sighted in a polo shirt with a tiki torch. 

[Johannah]

I guess this means Tori would never be able to teach in public (or probably most private?) schools if her education degree is not accredited. Not that she’ll likely want to, but it still seems sad. 

[seraaa]

On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 3:09 PM, HereticHick said:

I find it sad that so many jobs dis proportionally done by women are still sneered at as "just jobs" and therefore somehow lacking--by other women.

 

Reproductive labour - care work, cleaning, childcare etc -  is devalued where people do it to earn a wage, and often taken for granted where it is done for free.

A women disproportionately do this type of work. Capitalism + patriarchy, baby.

[kmachete14]

I'm not even sure Tori did all the work of a normal teaching degree. I looked at the example schedules for each year of the Bachelor degree and many of the classes were Religion classes, basic English and Math classes (really basic: grammar, Algebra), and "Christian living" type classes. There also was no inquiry or teaching practicum mentioned. As a senior and junior you take electives, so it would be interesting to know those. I had a teaching practicum for 3 years (F, Soph, J) and then a full practicum as a senior. For a regular teaching degree, you get basically complete a degree in your field (English, Biology, Spanish, Math, etc.) and then also take the teaching courses, psychology courses, research courses, practicum, inquiry, etc. 

However, I'm certain the only schools who would accept teachers with this degree are very conservative Christian schools that just use Abeka curriculum, read selected non-sexual in any way classic Christian literature, memorize Classical vocabulary, grammar, and the Constitution, and mostly teach the Bible. Tori has no experience to compare to anyways, so it's not like she aspired to teach they way you or I think of teachers/schools. These schools also don't usually accept any children with disabilities, and since education isn't idolized, probably don't have "gifted" programs anyways -- so teaching to children with different abilities isn't that big a deal. 

 

 

 

[candygirl200413]

I vaguely remember her having an Instagram story of her doing some project with popsicle sticks for student teaching?

[rebeccawriter01]

11 hours ago, candygirl200413 said:

I vaguely remember her having an Instagram story of her doing some project with popsicle sticks for student teaching?

The Crown curriculum has a senior year internship (called Elementary Education Teaching Internship) for its education majors. This should not be confused with student teaching where a student is in the classroom as much as the actual teacher and gradually takes over the daily assignments until the roles are reversed. The way the website and literature from Crown describes this is basically that a graduating student visits classrooms and observes teachers in action. These are all done through church-affiliated schools that don't require the same number of background checks and insurance that public and some private K-12 schools need. 

Education majors in accredited colleges and universities spend some time in the classroom every single semester, including observations, teaching single lessons, assisting, etc. This is done to weed people out who don't like working with children at all and to fulfill state requirements (varies by state) about how much hands-on experience is required. By the time you get to student teaching, you've been in the classroom so much that you are ready and it isn't a nervewracking experience to be in there. There are other challenges that will throw you, but not the actual teaching part. 

By contrast, Crown's cosmetology programs require classes that are more in line with the actual profession with the exception of an intro Bible course and an evangelism class. They are not all that different from what you would find in a technical college. 

Josie has chosen a more lucrative and flexible program through a limited college. But I doubt it matters all that much in the end to these girls who will never set the world on fire with career goals. 

[VelociRapture]

So I looked at the actual post on Josie’s Instagram and noticed that she tagged their Church in the post:

Looks like they’re sticking with The Temple Baptist Church - it’s the Church affiliated with Crown College and is the Church Kelton’s Family has attended for a while now. For anyone curious, their statement of faith can be found here.

[Kelsey]

Isn't that the same church Cherin attend?

ETA: do any of the marrieds attend Gil's church?

[lumpentheologie]

Just looked through Temple Baptist's statement of faith, and I'm kind of surprised to see that there's nothing about wives submitting to their husbands or women's role being primarily mothers. 

Lots of homophobia and transphobia, though. 

[squiddysquid]

On 1/6/2019 at 2:31 AM, metheglyn said:

Carlin is reported to have transferred her in-progress Crown BBS credits to Liberty and is supposedly currently pursuing a degree in Interdisciplinary Studies, which results in either an actual BA or BS. (See this page for details https://www.liberty.edu/academics/arts-sciences/inds/index.cfm?PID=36227)

Someone said that Liberty seems even more dodgy than Crown College.

Carlin can just to throw random subjects toghether until she has enough credits and they'll give her a "Bachelor" in interdisciplinary studies or something. This would never be allowed at a regular college.

I don't really get the American Accreditation system though. Some schools get their accreditation from the church of the dining room table or similar and call themselves "accredited".

[VelociRapture]

11 hours ago, Kelsey said:

Isn't that the same church Cherin attend?

ETA: do any of the marrieds attend Gil's church?

I believe so. I’m pretty sure that Crown students are required to attend services there. I think Erin played piano for services and I don’t think that Gil’s Church offers a childcare room*, so Cherin may just be more comfortable there at this point. If I remember right, Kelton’s family has attended there for a while and as a student Josie would have had to attend there too. I’m guessing they both felt comfortable there too. 

The only married couple I’m unsure of are ZachNey. We know the Churches for the other in-state married couples, as well as for the Websters. The Keilens live in Illinois, so they’d obviously have to find a Church in their own area. 

*I would guess that having a kid’s room would be a draw for the married couples since they’re all likely hoping to have kids at some point. I’d assume it’s a nice option to have when your kid starts acting up or crying. I’m not sure if Temple offers a kid’s room or not though.

ETA: I actually have Clear Springs Baptist listed for Cherin on the family summaries thread. Erin shared a photo of the Websters attending that Church with them shortly after Josie’s wedding:

ETA2: I should also add that I’ve listed what I believe are the Churches for each couple who have mentioned their Churches via Instagram. I added links to each Church website to make it easier for people to look into what each Church believes.

[Carm_88]

Kelton looks like such a sleazebag. Danny Devito in Matilda called, he wants his hairstyle back. 

[Palimpsest]

5 hours ago, squiddysquid said:

Someone said that Liberty seems even more dodgy than Crown College.

Carlin can just to throw random subjects toghether until she has enough credits and they'll give her a "Bachelor" in interdisciplinary studies or something. This would never be allowed at a regular college.

I don't really get the American Accreditation system though. Some schools get their accreditation from the church of the dining room table or similar and call themselves "accredited".

Dodgy in what sense.  Its reputation deservedly stinks when it comes to relationships in general, interracial relationships, and LGBTQ issues.  It has probably had more scandals than Crown and it is a solidly Fundie place.

But, unlike at Crown, at Liberty Carlin would have to throw together enough non-random credit hours to make sense to the regional accreditation association (SACS, in Liberty's case) to get a BA.  Regional accreditation is legitimate and subject to DOE (ebil gubmint) quality assurance.

Secular employers (and most FJ members) see regional accreditation as trumping any national accreditation agency.  Many turn up their noses at Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS) accreditation.  Crown has TRACS accreditation only and that is why many of us think their degrees are worthless outside Fundiedom.

It is possible for Fungelical Christian colleges and universities to have both regional and TRACS accreditation, but I think Liberty let their TRACS accreditation lapse.

Then you have the proudly non-accredited by anyone Christian "colleges" and "universities" like Reformation Bible College.  Those are the ones that don't want no ebil gubmint, or anyone else, telling them what to teach.   Some may provide a decent "Christian" education but their degrees aren't worth the paper they are printed on.  I'm still wondering why St Andrews (yes, the university in Scotland) allowed Joshua Phillips into their masters program with a non-accredited "degree" from there.  I supposed it was either very naive or desperately needed the American dollars.

[QuiverDance]

Yeah.  Liberty is accredited by SACS, which is the same body that accredited my own undergrad school.  So, while Liberty definitely promotes horrible beliefs, it is a legitimate school granting legitimate degrees based in actual instruction. 

Cherin does attend Clear Springs Baptist.  She tags them in her posts all the time. 

[rebeccawriter01]

1 hour ago, QuiverDance said:

Yeah.  Liberty is accredited by SACS, which is the same body that accredited my own undergrad school.  So, while Liberty definitely promotes horrible beliefs, it is a legitimate school granting legitimate degrees based in actual instruction. 

Cherin does attend Clear Springs Baptist.  She tags them in her posts all the time. 

I worked in higher education for many years and am a professional student now (in addition to my real career). Liberty went through quite a bit to get SACS accreditation. I served on SACS review teams in the past, but not on Liberty's. To sum it up though, SACS requires 50-60 hours of observation of all programs, notebooks and online document submittals of thousands upon thousands of curriculum plans, catalogs, QEP reports, transcripts of all faculty and staff, written responses to endless questions, etc. Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools (TRACS) requires what amounts to a file folder that includes your class offerings and how graduates will be able to promote Jesus in any of the programs offered. Recognition from entities like DOE, etc. basically says that Crown or Liberty is a school and offers educational classes in return for tuition. 

Liberty is probably one of the only SACS accredited colleges or universities that will allow transfer credits from a school such as Crown. To be honest, accepting transfer credits from such schools diminishes the receiving institution's standings with SACS. Most would shy away from this because there are enough problem areas with SACS accreditation standards without adding in this one. However, SACS has started allowing schools to explore offering credit for military service and life experience. It is possible that the credits Carlin earned were "experience" credits for her classes. Liberty is not alone in offering interdisciplinary studies as a major, as even some state colleges and universities offer it (usually as a placeholder until you pick a major, but whatever). 

Liberty's online program selections are insanely popular in the South. I was going through a leadership development program for work several years ago and had three classmates who were finishing their doctorates from Liberty. When I explained I was also finishing my doctorate from Emory, they were shocked that I wouldn't choose someplace like Liberty. They weren't really wanting to hear my opinion on Liberty's reputation so I sat with some other people. After all, they get their letters after their name same as I did though. 

Accreditation can be regional, national and programmatic. It all comes down to what you want to do with that piece of paper. Josie's program of cosmetology is accredited regionally (by Tennessee), allowing her and her classmates to sit for license exams. That's part of the issue with Tori's degree. In order to sit for the Praxis and become a licensed teacher, one must complete an approved educator preparation program and satisfy Tennessee's licensure test requirements. Crown is not on that list of approved educator programs because it lacks program and regional accreditation. However, that means little for Erin whose degree is in music ministry rather than music education. Most churches wouldn't care one way or another should she ever want to use her education to lead a music program in a church. 

I know that they were careful to say that Josie earned a diploma in cosmetology, but I was surprised to see that Crown now offers an AAS in cosmetology. That's rather rare, as most schools only offer the certificate/diploma programs. In order to find teachers for these diploma programs, one has to at least have the AAS and a few years of experience. At a few of the technical colleges in Georgia, a cosmetology teacher could earn $50-60K a year and could still work freelance at salons if they wanted more. That's good money for someone with two years of education. I hope that Katie will consider that rather than Josie's path.   

 

 

[llucie]

20 hours ago, Kelsey said:

 

ETA: do any of the marrieds attend Gil's church?

They dont. It looks like they run away from Gils church as soon as they can. He has to be at least a bit upset about it.

[formergothardite]

With the way Gil and Kelly travel I don't see how Gil could actually be putting a ton of energy into this church of his. 

[lexiloumarie]

13 hours ago, squiddysquid said:

Someone said that Liberty seems even more dodgy than Crown College.

Carlin can just to throw random subjects toghether until she has enough credits and they'll give her a "Bachelor" in interdisciplinary studies or something. This would never be allowed at a regular college.

I don't really get the American Accreditation system though. Some schools get their accreditation from the church of the dining room table or similar and call themselves "accredited".

Interdisciplinary studies as a major is a legitimate choice for some students and is not a fundie Mrs degree exclusively - it feels like it's being treated like she just made this up.

The schools I attended for my undergraduate and my graduate programs (one of which is a very well known state school) offered this degree option. Some students life goals don't perfectly mesh into an existing track. At budget conscience colleges, degrees like this give students options that wouldn't exist as full majors. I personally only knew one student in the program that I can think of now, who in saving for a graduate program ended up going on scholarship to a school that didn't have the precise arts major they needed. They used this degree track to get the requisite classes in to meet the grad requirements for a fraction of what going to Fancy School of design would. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

19 hours ago, squiddysquid said:

Someone said that Liberty seems even more dodgy than Crown College.

Carlin can just to throw random subjects toghether until she has enough credits and they'll give her a "Bachelor" in interdisciplinary studies or something. This would never be allowed at a regular college.

I don't really get the American Accreditation system though. Some schools get their accreditation from the church of the dining room table or similar and call themselves "accredited".

(Emphasis mine.) That’s not true. I went to an internationally respected American university, and they offered a “general studies” degree for students who had taken enough credits to graduate but had not met the requirements of any department to receive a degree in their field. The only person I recall getting one was an athlete who probably scheduled classes around athletics.