Josie and Kelton 3: Living in the White Evangelical Bubble

[nelliebelle1197]

On 1/25/2019 at 7:47 PM, TatiFish9 said:

I would not consider someone who openly and actively drinks alcohol (specifically and especially hard liquor) as a practicing fundie. It goes against the core message of fundiedom which is to take the Bible literally.

 

Well, you have no idea what you are talking about, then do you?

[HereticHick]

I see Lawson is also in NYC. I'm guessing it is some sort of UP thing, or another television event with Nightline or similar. 

Or perhaps Carlin is picking out her wedding dress?

[QuiverDance]

On 1/25/2019 at 6:47 PM, TatiFish9 said:

I would not consider someone who openly and actively drinks alcohol (specifically and especially hard liquor) as a practicing fundie. It goes against the core message of fundiedom which is to take the Bible literally.

 

Three words apply to this  "Jesus drank wine."  

I live in a pretty fundiefied area, and trust me while there are many tee-totalers, there are just as many uber Christian people who drink.  There is no biblical prohibition against alcohol consumption.  

4 hours ago, formergothardite said:

But not all fundies are no touch courtship or even courtship at all. Not even the Bates do a no touch courtship. They don't even call it courtship anymore. I hope we can all agree they are still fundie as hell. 

Didn't certain fundamentalist groups practice bed sharing/bundling between courting couples?  The no touching thing definitely is not universal.  

[HerNameIsBuffy]

6 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

Didn't certain fundamentalist groups practice bed sharing/bundling between courting couples?

I did that back when I was young and single ...but I had to hide it from my parents and it involved sex.

Yay bundling practices!

[TatiFish9]

1 hour ago, HereticHick said:

I see Lawson is also in NYC. I'm guessing it is some sort of UP thing, or another television event with Nightline or similar. 

Or perhaps Carlin is picking out her wedding dress?

Nathan said on FB live that at least some of them are flying to the Philippines from NY for mission work. Something about installing and repairing ...maybe phone lines? I didnt catch it all.

 

RE: drunken fundies. If you all say so. Until I see them in the wild, preaching holiness and drunkedness ( not to be confused with being drunk with the Holy Spirit), I will go by what I know.

3 hours ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Well, you have no idea what you are talking about, then do you?

Oh sweet irony...

[nelliebelle1197]

1 minute ago, TatiFish9 said:

Nathan said on FB live that at least some of them are flying to the Philippines from NY for mission work. Something about installing and repairing ...maybe phone lines? I didnt catch it all.

 

RE: drunken fundies. If you all say so. Until I see them in the wild, preaching holiness and drunkedness ( not to be confused with being drunk with the Holy Spirit), I will go by what I know.

Oh sweet irony...

What? That you have no clue what you are talking about? Many, many of us noticed that a long time ago.  Or is it that you have no irony what irony actually means?

[Palimpsest]

52 minutes ago, QuiverDance said:

Didn't certain fundamentalist groups practice bed sharing/bundling between courting couples?  The no touching thing definitely is not universal.  

Historically, absolutely bed sharing and bundling was very common.  There were also plenty of pregnant brides.  Most communities didn't turn a hair at it in Colonial America.

The courtship and betrothal movement is another off-shoot. parallel development, whatever you want to call it, of Biblical Patriarchy, just like Quiverfull.  It was (or is) part of the pizza toppings.  Not all Fundies practice and some practice it more seriously than others.  Kristina's no-touch courtship, 6" rule, and betrothal at Arby's was extreme even in 2009.  http://kristinaskeeps.blogspot.com/2009/02/obeying-6-rule.html

So was Maranatha Chapman's wedding: https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2013/12/02/jonathan-lindvall-and-child-marriage-the-maranatha-story/

The Biblical Patriarchy movement was at its zenith probably in the 1980s and 90s.  Courtship and betrothal was big then because it was all about the control and submission of women.  It predates Josh Harris by at least 15 - 20 years.  People like Rushdooney, Gothard, Lindvall and Ohlman were big into it.

It is going out of fashion in Fundie circles now because, guess what, they found it didn't work so well.

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

RE: drunken fundies. If you all say so. Until I see them in the wild, preaching holiness and drunkedness ( not to be confused with being drunk with the Holy Spirit), I will go by what I know.

So until you see something yourself with your own eyes it doesn’t exist?

Where do you fall on aboriginal tribes?  Because you’ve never lived amongst them do they not exist?

i personally believe the Great Wall of china is a thing despite never having seen it for myself.

but maybe im just naive and you’re like those people who think Finland is a fictional construct.

[formergothardite]

13 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

: drunken fundies. I

Have you checked out the Sproul thread. Fundie as hell and he got arrested for driving drunk! 

[nelliebelle1197]

3 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Have you checked out the Sproul thread. Fundie as hell and he got arrested for driving drunk! 

But she has not seen them in the wild! So of course they don't exist   ???

[Palimpsest]

14 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

Until I see them in the wild, preaching holiness and drunkedness ( not to be confused with being drunk with the Holy Spirit), I will go by what I know.

Sayings of RC Sproul Jr. on alcohol here:  http://rc-sproul-jr.blogspot.com/2006/10/words-of-wit-with-rc-sproul-jr.html?m=1

Some highlights:

Quote

 

RC Sproul Jr. on the theology of beer:
"One of my favorite intellectual debates centers around this question - is bad beer better than no beer? A corollary is this, Is free bad beer better than good beer?"2
  
"I managed to stay clear of beer, until the next time I had an opportunity to consume some."3

"In most churches when they say, 'Hide the beer, the pastor's here!", they mean it one way. But here at St. Peter we mean it an entirely different way."4 

RC Sproul Jr. on chugging beer:
"I learned that alcohol is a powerful social lubricant, so much so that high schoolers who normally wouldn't give 13 year old Jim and me the time of day, were more than willing to adopt us as mascots, and to pour beer down our throats for entertainment. I learned that perhaps the greatest sport a jock might aspire to was chugging beer. And I learned that I was pretty good at it."5 

RC Sproul Jr. on symbols of brotherhood:
"Now I was drunk enough that drinking together was a delightful symbol of brotherhood. Urinating together as well was a delightful symbol of brotherhood."6 

RC Sproul Jr on alcohol and sexual prowess:
"Around that keg we were taught the TKE fight song, which celebrated first the capacity to consume great quantities of alcohol, and second, sexual prowess. I still remember the chant to this day."7 

 

And the fallout:  https://blackchristiannews.com/2017/06/rc-sproul-jr-avoids-prison-time-takes-plea-deal-for-driving-drunk-with-kids/

[formergothardite]

Wasn't Sproul and Vision Forum connected?

 

Gwen Shamblin(Lara) who runs Remnant Fellowship doesn't even believe in alcoholism. She is all for drinking as long as you don't drink too much. She is also proof that a woman can pastor a church and the entire church can still be patriarchal. 

[Palimpsest]

10 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Wasn't Sproul and Vision Forum connected?

Yep.  And many of that crowd like the odd cigar and expensive brandy.

[formergothardite]

I remember that the VF crowd was very much into a certain image and it didn't involve frumpers or avoiding alcohol. It seems that a lot of them were into dancing too. 

[TatiFish9]

@Palimpsest

Thanks for link. The information in the first was difficult to make a conlusion because...mostly quotes.

Second talks about him being charged due to alcohol...I think.

Which I am okay with and does not change my mind, because I think I will first have to define what I believe to be fundie Christians and the denoms that support that. It has already be concluded that there are different definition floating around opening up the gate to confusion and conflict ( for those who can get enough lol).

At the end of the day, I guess it doesnt matter because I now accept that at large (on FB) "Fundie" speaks more to the politics of the individual/group and how they use their beliefs to support those damaging politics. I am cool with that.

 

[Palimpsest]

1 minute ago, TatiFish9 said:

Thanks for link. The information in the first was difficult to make a conlusion because...mostly quotes.

If you go to the link the quotations are all footnoted.  You can check the sources because they are all well documented.

2 minutes ago, TatiFish9 said:

Which I am okay with and does not change my mind, because I think I will first have to define what I believe to be fundie Christians and the denoms that support that. It has already be concluded that there are different definition floating around opening up the gate to confusion and conflict ( for those who can get enough lol).

You can define Fundamentalist Christian however you like and however narrowly you like.  But don't expect everyone here to agree with your opinion.  In fact many of us, if not most, will disagree with your opinion if you really think no Fundies drink alcohol.  It is uninformed.

For one thing, not all people who self-identify as Fundamentalist Christian completely abstain from alcohol.  The Calvinists and Reformed crowd certainly don't - and Calvin was a wine drinker himself.

On Free Jinger we deliberately define Fundie (a pejorative term) very broadly.  And we don't only discuss Christian Fundamentalism here. 

I'd refrain from beating this particular dead parrot if I were you.  I seem to remember going around the mulberry bush with you on this before. 

[TatiFish9]

@Palimpsest 

Hilarious yet confusing. I conceded.

But thanks on the advice about how to post around here.

[metheglyn]

On 1/27/2019 at 2:07 PM, seraaa said:

I have never researched it, but I do think there is a cultural element. And of course there are Protestants who drink, but I think of idk, Anglicans and Presbyterians rather than Baptists.

You'd expect Catholics with, say, an Irish or Italian background to be more relaxed about drinking, but I think there is also a religious as well as a regional element. I did a cursory google and came across this article from the 80s about attitudes to drinking and religion in the Western Isles of Scotland (remote, with their own particular religious culture) and there too this difference was observed. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/19382346_Religion_and_Attitudes_towards_Alcohol_Use_in_the_Western_Isles

 

 

I'm Episcopalian and was reminded of an old joke that apparently has its own term, Whiskeypalian. "A saying goes that where you find four Episcopalians, you’re sure to find a fifth as well."

https://www.dictionaryofchristianese.com/whiskeypalian-where-you-find-four-episcopalians-youll-find-a-fifth/

[theotherelise]

I actually think the conversation about what "fundie" means is interesting. I guess my understanding of where the term came from was the Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) community. I believe many of the original families followed around here are independent baptists. This frequently looks like home churches, family churches, or small local churches. If a church calls itself Baptist but doesn't say they're first baptist or second missionary baptist or southwest baptist, then they are probably IFB.

But then it gets murky. IBLP was not technically affiliated with a denomination IIRC. James Dobson and Focus on the Family and the Family Resource Council are interdenominational-ish. I believe Dobson is Nazarene. I'm not sure that the Doug Phillips crowd ever claimed a denomination. RC Sproul and John Piper are Presbyterians, but the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood is non-denominational. 

I find this to be a really interesting line of thought because I think sometimes people's definitions of what "free" means are really different too. I don't think every person who is anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage is in a cult or fundie. My idiot cousin is an atheist and both of those things. So for me, Jinger or Josie or whoever being "free" doesn't mean they stop being conservative or judgmental or homeschooling.

Rigidity, exclusivity, lack of agency, and hyper-focus are signs to me of fundamentalism. Do you refuse to acknowledge that others can interpret/apply scripture differently but still have salvation? Within your faith community, do women, children, and other marginalized groups have the ability to determine their destiny by choosing how they will live, who they will be in relationship with, how they will grow their family, what school/jobs they will have, and what beliefs they follow? Do you elevate some parts of scripture over others, valuing one chapter as a sacrosanct edict for living, while ignoring the context and adjacent chapters? 

Limitations on what women can do seems like an across the board thing for fundamentalism, but drinking alcohol doesn't.

Carlin going to a real university (online), Jill Duggar going to a Southwest Baptist Church, Jinger Duggar going to a protestant Reformed church and possibly engaging in family planning, Josie Bates choosing to continue working (fingers crossed) after marriage... these are small steps of freedom to me. Any time this generation of fundies chooses to work in a job outside the bubble of their weirdly incestuous economic bubble, that is a small step to me. They may still have terrible beliefs forever, but at least they may be deciding those themselves?

[formergothardite]

Here is an article by Geoff Botkin(who I'm fairly sure everyone will agree is fundie) answering the question about if Christians need alcohol. He answers it in a very Geoff way by telling a long, rambling story praising the creator of Guinness beer. 

https://westernconservatory.com/articles/alcohol-movies-and-other-toxins

Here is a book written by a reformed fundie pastor about alcohol. It has a foreword by RC Sproul. 

http://www.oakdown.com/DrinkingWith_Calvin_and_Luther.shtml

The Duggars and Bates are just a small section of fundies. 

[Palimpsest]

2 hours ago, theotherelise said:

I believe many of the original families followed around here are independent baptists. This frequently looks like home churches, family churches, or small local churches. If a church calls itself Baptist but doesn't say they're first baptist or second missionary baptist or southwest baptist, then they are probably IFB.

But then it gets murky. IBLP was not technically affiliated with a denomination IIRC. James Dobson and Focus on the Family and the Family Resource Council are interdenominational-ish. I believe Dobson is Nazarene. I'm not sure that the Doug Phillips crowd ever claimed a denomination. RC Sproul and John Piper are Presbyterians, but the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood is non-denominational. 

Almost right.  The "original" family - the Duggars were Fundie, IFB-type Baptist, and IBLP followers,

However, Free Jinger was originally created because the now defunct TWoP kept disciplining and benning posters for going off topic and talking about other types of Fundamentalism. 

That is what we originally were formed to do - to go far beyond the Duggars in spite of our name.

Because of TeeVee, the Duggars and Bateses are gateway Fundies for many.  But we hope new people get beyond the TeeVee families explore and learn about the wild, weird, and incredibly complex world of Fucked Up Fundamentalism in greater detail. 

See the Quiverfull of Snark forum.

IBLP is a technically non-denominational parachurch  that attracted many denominations., but Gothard apparently preferred IFB types if not SBC.

Vision Forum Ministries was also a non-denominational parachurch and spread its web widely.   Doug Phillips himself identified as Reformed (Calvinistic) Baptist, IIRC.  And that is a whole other rabbit hole.

And that doesn't even cover people like Doug Wilson (CREC), the Pissing Pastor (Anderson) and the many other Fundies we discuss all over Free Jinger. 

 

 

[nelliebelle1197]

Fundamentalism has a real definition and real meaning. One cannot just make up her own definition.

Quote

Dictionary

fun·da·men·tal·ist

Dictionary result for fundamentalist

/ˌfəndəˈmen(t)ələst/

noun

noun: fundamentalist; plural noun: fundamentalists

1.

a person who believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture in a religion.

"religious fundamentalists"

a person who adheres strictly to the basic principles of any subject or discipline.

"a free-market fundamentalist"

adjective

adjective: fundamentalist

1.

relating to or advocating the strict, literal interpretation of scripture.

"a fundamentalist Protestant preacher"

 

There are fundamentalist Jews, Muslims, Presbyterians, Baptists, Catholics, Episcopals, Holiness, Lutherans, etc. No matter how one chooses to "define" fundamentalism, it simply is what it is and there are as many strains and variations of Abrahamic fundamentalists has there are Abrahamic religions, sects and denominations. Typically, the Abrahamic religions tend to breed fundamentalism, and even Mormons can join in that grouping because of the origins of the scam/cult.

It's always really obvious to me who on here only knows fundamentalism via TV, not via experience or glamorous things like you know, reading.  I, like @formergothardite and @Destiny and @Lisafer and many more, was a fundie and I have read voraciously on the various strains that interest me. Others obviously watch TV.

[Lisafer]

Popping in to see why my name is being taken in vain in a Bates thread...hi @nelliebelle1197! 

She's right, you know. Fundamentalism is defined as strict literal interpretation of Scripture. Since we seem to be having an alcohol-related discussion, there is no Scriptural basis for abstinence, although I've seen some fundies try their darndest to find one. 

If someone insists that being gay is wrong because the Bible says that homosexuals should be stoned, they're fundie. They're holding a strict literal interpretation of Scripture. 

No fundie is completely consistent in their beliefs or their actions. The Bible being a collection of documents from a wide span of time with different authors makes it impossible to be fully consistent. Thus you get different dress codes, food rules, New Earth and Old Earth Creationism, and other variances. But all the fundies believe that their doctrine is the one most well-supported by Scripture. I should know, I was one of them. Our way was the only way, and what we believed the Bible said was law.

That's the best I can do when leaping wildly into a thread I have never visited!

[seraaa]

12 hours ago, theotherelise said:

Rigidity, exclusivity, lack of agency, and hyper-focus are signs to me of fundamentalism. Do you refuse to acknowledge that others can interpret/apply scripture differently but still have salvation? Within your faith community, do women, children, and other marginalized groups have the ability to determine their destiny by choosing how they will live, who they will be in relationship with, how they will grow their family, what school/jobs they will have, and what beliefs they follow? Do you elevate some parts of scripture over others, valuing one chapter as a sacrosanct edict for living, while ignoring the context and adjacent chapters? 

This is such a good way of putting it!

12 hours ago, theotherelise said:

I find this to be a really interesting line of thought because I think sometimes people's definitions of what "free" means are really different too. I don't think every person who is anti-abortion and anti-gay marriage is in a cult or fundie. My idiot cousin is an atheist and both of those things. So for me, Jinger or Josie or whoever being "free" doesn't mean they stop being conservative or judgmental or homeschooling.

Yes, this.

[nolongerIFBx]

18 hours ago, theotherelise said:

I actually think the conversation about what "fundie" means is interesting. I guess my understanding of where the term came from was the Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) community. I believe many of the original families followed around here are independent baptists. This frequently looks like home churches, family churches, or small local churches. If a church calls itself Baptist but doesn't say they're first baptist or second missionary baptist or southwest baptist, then they are probably IFB.

. . . 

In the early specials, the Duggars were southern Baptist.

IFB stands for independent fundamental baptist. They hold baptist beliefs: http://web.engr.oregonstate.edu/~moon/oregonstatefscf/BAPTISTS.pdf but there are several different types of baptist denominations: American, General, Southern, Missionary, Free Will, Primitive, Reformed (and on and on). They hold to the fundamentals of the faith. You'll see anywhere from 5-10 of these, but they usually include: 1) The virgin birth of Christ, 2) the substitutionary atonement of Christ, 3) the bodily resurrection of Christ, 4) the inerrancy of scriptures. Those beliefs are not held only by Baptists but by many faiths. It is the Independent part that is somewhat unique to them. There is no IFB Association. Each church is their own governing body. Each church decides what they believe and what they practice. I have attended IFB churches that are at least as strict as the Duggars and the one I currently attend has CCM, different versions of the Bible, associates with other churches (even of other denominations), women wear pants, people drink and dance, children are homeschooled, private schooled and public schooled, both sexes attend college (Bible or secular), women have careers, men participate in caring for their children, pastor is not an egomaniac, etc.

So while I would call my "strict-as-the-Duggars" church fundie but not my current church, fundie on FJ pretty much means anyone who lets how they believe the Bible affect the way they believe that people should act or causes them to believe something that is contrary to prevailing thought (such as a 7-day creation).

Basically, I'm fundie here and a flaming liberal to my fundie family.