Josie and Kelton 3: Living in the White Evangelical Bubble

[Carm_88]

I’m very BEC about Kelton. I just have the odd urge to smack him in his smug face! 

[JillyO]

9 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

I’m very BEC about Kelton. I just have the odd urge to smack him in his smug face! 

I know, right? Some people just have a super punchable face and he is right at the top of that list!

[TatiFish9]

16 hours ago, QuiverDance said:

Maybe she's using a filter or one of those apps like Facetune?

Probably it! I forgot folks use filters these days. But it looks like her face changed only. I thought it was one of the beauty products she's pushing. It really evens the tone of her face ( not that she needs imo). The rest of her skin, neck included seems slighly different. Interesting if it is just a facy filter. Note: Why wear make up? Apps do all the work these days. Ha!

[nastyhobbitses]

23 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

I’m very BEC about Kelton. I just have the odd urge to smack him in his smug face! 

I'm honestly kinda glad he's spent his life in Fundie-dom, because if he'd gone to a secular college and drank alcohol he'd probably be even worse. 

[Melissa1977]

35 minutes ago, nastyhobbitses said:

I'm honestly kinda glad he's spent his life in Fundie-dom, because if he'd gone to a secular college and drank alcohol he'd probably be even worse. 

Some fundies (or extremely conservative people) drink alcohol. I'm not saying Kelton does, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if some Bates kids drink a beer. I wouldn't consider drinking alcohol as an evidence of becoming less fundie, but it's obvious that Bates are becoming more mainstream on their looks and way of life. TV and pants for girls were absolutely forbidden, but now most of the married ones have changed those rules. I suspect alcohol may be similar, specially for young people.who go to restaurants and travel and have secular jobs. 

 

[Nikedagain?]

17 hours ago, JillyO said:

I know, right? Some people just have a super punchable face and he is right at the top of that list!

He just reminds me of a little Brett Kavanaugh Jr. Blecchh

[TatiFish9]

I would not consider someone who openly and actively drinks alcohol (specifically and especially hard liquor) as a practicing fundie. It goes against the core message of fundiedom which is to take the Bible literally.

 

[TeaELSee]

It’s funny, when I stopped in Rocky Top last fall I was really shocked to see a liquor store. For some reason I thought everyone didn’t drink in that area!

I am very uneducated regarding religion.

[formergothardite]

2 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

It goes against the core message of fundiedom which is to take the Bible literally.

 

There were Vision Forum folks who were down with drinking and also fundie as hell. Remnant Fellowship, also heavily into drinking and very fundie. The non-drinking, non-dancing fundies are just a certain group. There are drinking, dancing fundies. 

The Bible technically doesn't say not to drink.

[Dominionatrix]

Jesus's first miracle was making wine. Literally. 

[lumpentheologie]

The Bible doesn't say anything about not drinking, to my knowledge.  And tons of people are drinking wine in it, especially the Old Testament, but also Jesus makes wine for everyone when they run out at a wedding. I just saw an 19th-century painting of this: https://www.hamburger-kunsthalle.de/sammlung-online/julius-schnorr-von-carolsfeld/die-hochzeit-zu-kana.  Note that most of the people on the left are looking put out because they're out of wine, and the people on the right are happy and have wine. Jesus is basically the dude who makes the midnight beer run when the party runs dry, and people are really into him because of it. 

[formergothardite]

 Jesus turned water into grape juice is falling out of favor just like frumpers and courtship. But there have always been branches of fundies who didn't buy into that. 

[TeaELSee]

3 hours ago, formergothardite said:

Jesus turned water into grape juice is falling out of favor just like frumpers and courtship. But there have always been branches of fundies who didn't buy into that. 

Isn’t that why Welch’s grape juice became a company?  I need to google that.

[candygirl200413]

I'll never forget when Anna Duggar's dad said how Jesus really turned wine into grape juice.

[theotherelise]

Eight years of Christian school meant I had this verse memorized, albeit in NIV. Here is Ephesians 5:18 : And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

There are also quite a few other verses about drunkenness: https://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/bible-verses-about-drinking-alcohol/

I think all the Bates kids have stayed at baptist churches, so it's likely to me they'll stick with no drinking. I think that holds pretty true for non fundie but devout baptists in the Bible belt. If anyone is going to break the drinking barrier out of the next generation, I expect it would be the Vuolos. Their church is reformed and unlikely to be against drinking. Plus Jeremy drank before.

[nausicaa]

23 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

I would not consider someone who openly and actively drinks alcohol (specifically and especially hard liquor) as a practicing fundie. It goes against the core message of fundiedom which is to take the Bible literally.

Oh man, I got some fundamentalist Traditionalist Catholics to introduce you to!

[lumpentheologie]

6 hours ago, theotherelise said:

Eight years of Christian school meant I had this verse memorized, albeit in NIV. Here is Ephesians 5:18 : And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Right, it does say don't get drunk, and fundies do seem to erroneously equate any drinking at all with getting drunk. But Jeremy has said, I believe, that it's okay to have a glass of wine as long as you don't get drunk. And it seems like what constitutes 'drunk' is pretty open to interpretation---I could have 3-4 glasses of wine before being what I would call drunk.

[adidas]

I’ve made posts before with some details, but in my previous job I interacted quite extensively with Plymouth/exclusive brethren. Never socially (I have only ever been to one family’s home), but my job had me dealing with them frequently and we still stop to chat when we see each other.

Anyway. I think we would all agree that Plymouth/Exclusive Brethren are very conservative fundies, right? Anyone want to argue otherwise?

Well the males are also big drinkers. Not all, of course, but most.

[Fun Undies]

 

14 hours ago, nausicaa said:

Oh man, I got some fundamentalist Traditionalist Catholics to introduce you to!

^ I was going to point this one out, too!  I'm a cradle Catholic, recent revert - and after spending a good ten years church shopping in various Protestant churches, I was pretty familiar with the "line drawn in the sand" debate about alcohol (plus my father is a Southern Baptist, so I felt reallyyyy familiar with my Bible and what is said about drinking, but not to excess - which of course is debatable from person to person).   And still somehow, I was still really surprised to find our local women's generalization group is acronym ed W.I.N.E (Women In the New Evangelization) ? 

I do wonder if some of the "NO ALCOHOL" among the Evangelicals, is based on their Puritan background (pretty sure people like the Bates/Duggars love to pretend their family line started in 'Murica in 1777) - versus, Catholics "come from ebil Europe" where it ain't uncommon to let the teenager have a swig of beer at the family table??  So basically, I wonder if some of this debate is cultural?  Just my two cents!

Anyways, in case any fundies secretly read this, let me share a Bible quote (their fav. mode of communication) - I'll even put it King Jimmy's language: Matthew 11:19 "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold a man gluttonous, and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners'. But wisdom is justified of her children."*  One of my favorite things about Jesus is that he hung out with everyone - the "least of these", and socialized - preaching sure, but also genuinely being among them, too. 

*Really this verse is more about: Stop exagerating people's faults - like don't call someone an alcoholic, when they've had a beer, etc.  Don't gossip about people, by proclaiming a fault to everyone who can hear, when they're isn't one.  IF you have to comment about anybody, let it be about someone's good deeds.  But it's obvious that Jesus drank wine - how much, who knows, but homeboy definitely thought highly enough of it, that he wanted all Catholics to drink his Blood via that route every Sunday ? 

[seraaa]

4 hours ago, Fun Undies said:

I do wonder if some of the "NO ALCOHOL" among the Evangelicals, is based on their Puritan background (pretty sure people like the Bates/Duggars love to pretend their family line started in 'Murica in 1777) - versus, Catholics "come from ebil Europe" where it ain't uncommon to let the teenager have a swig of beer at the family table??  So basically, I wonder if some of this debate is cultural?  Just my two cents!

I have never researched it, but I do think there is a cultural element. And of course there are Protestants who drink, but I think of idk, Anglicans and Presbyterians rather than Baptists.

You'd expect Catholics with, say, an Irish or Italian background to be more relaxed about drinking, but I think there is also a religious as well as a regional element. I did a cursory google and came across this article from the 80s about attitudes to drinking and religion in the Western Isles of Scotland (remote, with their own particular religious culture) and there too this difference was observed. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/19382346_Religion_and_Attitudes_towards_Alcohol_Use_in_the_Western_Isles

 

 

[TatiFish9]

lol @ the wine comments. I did specify hard liquor because the Jesus wine scriptures are customary. But fundies will have their counter responses to that with the quickness, but I will not.

Without plunging myself into the ongoing debate about what actually constitutes fundamental Christianity and which denoms/groups suffice, I want to quickly say that the hubris surrounding this division of Christianity is not enveloped in technicality of scripture so much as it centers around Christians being called and therefore separated from worldy behavior. Traditional debaucherous actives such as drunkedness sit at the core of that definition (that is the literal part). There is also an extremism to doctrine. So where as general conservative Christians may say drink but do not become drunk, fundies will say do not drink at all because who is to determine where the line of sober and drunkedness is drawn (aka no such thing as tipsy or "nice"). *Also, let's not tempt other Christians who will inevitably make up the bulk of your social circle because you have to separate yourself unto being lights in the world.* Not snarking. Just saying.

Interesting to Vision Forum and the other groups listed. I wonder if they allow alcohol (beyond wine and hard lemonade) at their church functions. If yes, I also wonder if other fundie groups criticize such practices when they co-mingle.

 

[CarrotCake]

10 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

So where as general conservative Christians may say drink but do not become drunk, fundies will say do not drink at all because who is to determine where the line of sober and drunkedness is drawn (aka no such thing as tipsy or "nice").

I think it is the same as where 'normal' conservative Christians will say: don't have sex before marriage but you can show your affection by being somewhat intimate with each other, but Fundies say: no intimacy at all.

[formergothardite]

4 minutes ago, CarrotCake said:

but Fundies say: no intimacy at all.

But not all fundies are no touch courtship or even courtship at all. Not even the Bates do a no touch courtship. They don't even call it courtship anymore. I hope we can all agree they are still fundie as hell. 

 

10 hours ago, TatiFish9 said:

o where as general conservative Christians may say drink but do not become drunk, fundies will say do not drink at all because who is to determine where the line of sober and drunkedness is drawn (aka no such thing as tipsy or "nice")

But not all fundies will follow this line of thinking. The Sproul family who is very, VERY fundie is all into drinking. Remnant Fellowship has social events that seem to revolve around alcohol and their weird worship of not eating. I like to look at it this way. Fundies, just like they cherry pick from the Bible, tend to cherry pick what they are fundie about. Jill Rod. is a good example. She is fundie yet dresses herself and children in ways many other fundies would view immodest. She also thinks dancing is okay, something other fundies wouldn't approve of. 

[Palimpsest]

I think @WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? had the perfect analogy for this recently.

She compared Fundamentalism to pizza.  The same basic crust but different Fundamentalists cherry pick from a choice of Biblical toppings.  But it is still all pizza.

[Palimpsest]

Also, the Bible doesn't prohibit alcohol or wine so much as it advises against excessive consumption and drunkenness.  Historically, the teetotal Protestant denominations, like many branches of Baptist, prohibit alcohol because they were big supporters of the Temperance Movement.  That only started in 1820 or so in the UK but spread to the USA and ended up as Prohibition.  

Many non-drinking Fundies would be shocked to discover that the sainted Pilgrim Fathers drank alcohol.  It was safer than water.  They drank mostly beer and cider, of course, but public drinking and excessive consumption of alcohol were frequent problems in the early years of the  Plymouth colony.