JinJer 39: Waiting to Meet Their Baby Daughter

[SorenaJ]

9 hours ago, BernRul said:

Not entirely sure why this is getting downvoted. Do people just not believe that majority atheist communities exist? Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't most countries in Western Europe nonreligious?

Downvoters probably don't have a lot of knowledge of northwestern European countries, which are very secular and irreligious. Being religious would be unusual and unassumed. 

[Iamtheway]

I live in Sweden and I definitly assume people are atheists (or at least not very religious) until proven othervise. I probably assume people are atheist before I assume they are staight. I was actually pretty shocked about how religious people were when I studied a semester in New Zealand and lived at the international house with lots of americans. I don’t have a single religious friend in Sweden. We don’t talk much about faith so I might have friends that believe but if they do they do it privatly. 

I am very thankful to the people I met i NZ and what they thought me about faith and religion and I am definitly more open minded about religion now. Mostly because before I went there my only experience of religious people was one weird fundie boy at school and a teacher that I didn’t like.

I honestly think it would be harder for me in my family and group of friends to come out as religious then gay. Neither of them would be that hard and I don’t think I’d loose anything or anyone (except my husband if it happened now) over it. And yes, I am thankful about this and try to not take it for granted. But I think people would look at me and treat me a bit differently if I was religious, but not if I was gay. 

[BernRul]

13 hours ago, KelseyAnn said:

Exactly, I feel its really disrespectful for some posters to make attempts at co-opting the struggles of the gay community. 

And I'm sorry, but of course, the Pulse shooting was a target at gay people. Why else would you shoot up a gay nightclub? 

Yeah, I agree. I feel like there's a trend in society lately (not FJ specifically or any particular poster) to act like everyone's problem or issue is the same. IMO that ignores the nuances of the world. Two things can be difficult but that doesn't make them the same. That's why I used the indentured servant vs slave example (which a frightening amount of people try to argue were equally bad). We can acknowledge one was bad (white indentured servant were treated very badly) and even that on a case by case basis some servants were treated worse than slaves, but it would be wrong to say the two situations were the same. They really, really weren't.

Also I feel like we're ignoring the historical context. I'm under 30, and I can still vividly remember a time when being gay was unaccepted by the majority of people. The gay community has come a long way, but being accepted by the majority is a recent development. Hell, 30 years ago the US govt and most of the population were fine ignoring an epidemic because they thought it would kill off "perverts" ( a great source on how AIDS as we know it was created by homophobia is And the Band Played On). Atheism has it's own issues but it's not the same. Personally I think to say otherwise belittles the historic struggle of the LBGT community.

[VelociRapture]

8 hours ago, BernRul said:

Yeah, I agree. I feel like there's a trend in society lately (not FJ specifically or any particular poster) to act like everyone's problem or issue is the same. IMO that ignores the nuances of the world. Two things can be difficult but that doesn't make them the same. That's why I used the indentured servant vs slave example (which a frightening amount of people try to argue were equally bad). We can acknowledge one was bad (white indentured servant were treated very badly) and even that on a case by case basis some servants were treated worse than slaves, but it would be wrong to say the two situations were the same. They really, really weren't.

Also I feel like we're ignoring the historical context. I'm under 30, and I can still vividly remember a time when being gay was unaccepted by the majority of people. The gay community has come a long way, but being accepted by the majority is a recent development. Hell, 30 years ago the US govt and most of the population were fine ignoring an epidemic because they thought it would kill off "perverts" ( a great source on how AIDS as we know it was created by homophobia is And the Band Played On). Atheism has it's own issues but it's not the same. Personally I think to say otherwise belittles the historic struggle of the LBGT community.

I agree with you. It’s tough to “come out” as anything that doesn’t fit with whatever societal norms you were born into, but I do think there are varying degrees of difficulty. Discussing the US in general, I think coming out as Gay is likely harder than coming out as an Atheist in many cases, but coming out as Bi or Trans could very well be much tougher than coming out as Gay. Bi-erasure is still a problem and Trans rights are unfortunately still lagging pretty far behind Gay rights - even worse, there are people in the LGBTQ+ community who don’t even accept or care about the rights of people who are Bi or Trans. 

(I’m just an ally of the LGBTQ+ community and don’t know what I believe when it comes to religion, so I don’t think my opinion counts for very much here. I do hope everyone who has shared their personal stories and thoughts here - whether about coming out as Gay or revealing they’re an Atheist - is in a happy and healthy place now though.  )

[Rachel333]

3 hours ago, BernRul said:

Yeah, I agree. I feel like there's a trend in society lately (not FJ specifically or any particular poster) to act like everyone's problem or issue is the same. IMO that ignores the nuances of the world. Two things can be difficult but that doesn't make them the same.

That's kind of what I'm trying to say too. Not everyone's issue is the same, and so I have a problem with people here saying that coming out as one thing is more difficult than coming out as another thing unless they're talking about their own experience. It's going to vary a lot from person to person. You also don't want to come across as dismissing the struggles of one identity.

That's why as much as possible I think it's best to treat different issues as their own thing rather than trying to compare which one is worse or more difficult. 

[lumpentheologie]

9 hours ago, SorenaJ said:

Downvoters probably don't have a lot of knowledge of northwestern European countries, which are very secular and irreligious. Being religious would be unusual and unassumed. 

I think they probably thought that by 'here' you meant FJ and not the place where you live. 

[SorenaJ]

2 minutes ago, lumpentheologie said:

I think they probably thought that by 'here' you meant FJ and not the place where you live. 

Oh, could be, I suppose. 'Here' for me, means where I live now, or the country I grew up in, can mean both, really. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

31 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

Not everyone's issue is the same, and so I have a problem with people here saying that coming out as one thing is more difficult than coming out as another thing unless they're talking about their own experience. It's going to vary a lot from person to person.

Which is EXACTLY why I worded my question as I did:

 

Quote

If anyone here is both gay AND atheist, I'd love to hear comparisons/contrasts. 

 

[Rachel333]

@SapphireSlytherin

Oh yeah, I have no issue with your question!

[Rachel333]

@Iamtheway

Oh, where were you in NZ? I spent a semester in Dunedin!

[lumpentheologie]

I'm bisexual and basically an atheist (I don't like defining myself based on what I don't believe and I don't like supporting the idea that religion is primarily about belief, but I don't believe in God) and for me whether it's harder to come out as atheist or gay/queer depends on who I'm coming out to. 

I have come out as bisexual publicly, although as some posters have said heterosexuality is so presumed that there have been times when I could have 'come out' again but I didn't feel like getting into it with someone who assumed I was straight.  I've never 'come out' as atheist, but in my social circle you're pretty much assumed to be atheist/agnostic/non-religious. Almost the only openly religious people I know socially are Jewish. So I've never felt the need to 'come out' as a non-believer.  Once though I was at a party and someone I didn't know was shocked that I didn't believe in God and asked how I could continue living...I was just as shocked and stared at her without saying anything. 

That said, my extended family is Catholic at various levels of practicing, and they are mostly supportive of my sexuality (seeing it as not a choice) but even the more liberal ones would be taken aback if I said I didn't believe in God, even though they may have doubts themselves. I've had family members tell me I can never be sure God doesn't exist and I should be at least somewhat religious to hedge my bets, as it were.  No one has ever asked me if I'm sure I'm not straight (although that probably happens to some people). 

I'm lucky enough to have never been afraid or experienced troubling discrimination at an individual level for being either bi or atheist, though.  I wish it could be like that for more of you!  

[finnlassie]

7 hours ago, Iamtheway said:

I live in Sweden and I definitly assume people are atheists (or at least not very religious) until proven othervise. I probably assume people are atheist before I assume they are staight. I was actually pretty shocked about how religious people were when I studied a semester in New Zealand and lived at the international house with lots of americans. I don’t have a single religious friend in Sweden. We don’t talk much about faith so I might have friends that believe but if they do they do it privatly. 

I am very thankful to the people I met i NZ and what they thought me about faith and religion and I am definitly more open minded about religion now. Mostly because before I went there my only experience of religious people was one weird fundie boy at school and a teacher that I didn’t like.

I honestly think it would be harder for me in my family and group of friends to come out as religious then gay. Neither of them would be that hard and I don’t think I’d loose anything or anyone (except my husband if it happened now) over it. And yes, I am thankful about this and try to not take it for granted. But I think people would look at me and treat me a bit differently if I was religious, but not if I was gay. 

I'm in Finland (heja, neighbour!) and it's kinda the same here. Coming out as gay? Eh. Being openly religious? WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?!

Personally, some of my friends will sigh if I mention something about my beliefs (not out of the blue, always related to the topic). I have a good amount of Christian friends and I'm active in my circles, but I think I have more athiest & non-practicing Christians in my group of friends and acquaintances. And being religious is a no-no to them. Like... in my experience they're more open to people who believe in healing crystals than to practicing Christians.

And, well, I am a bit more conservative than the average Christian Finn. I'm not ashamed of it. But I just cannot talk about it to a lot of people, because I know I'll get the huffs instead of constructive discussion.

This of course is just my personal experience, I'm not gonna speak for all Finns, be they athiests or religious.

[Iamtheway]

3 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

@Iamtheway

Oh, where were you in NZ? I spent a semester in Dunedin!

Me too! I loved it there! So much. Did you live at Toroa? It would be a very small world if we were there at the same time.

[Satan'sFortress]

This has been a very interesting discussion to follow.  I understand that some people find it offensive, and I do sympathize.  At the same time, many points were very educational to me.  It has given me a lot to think about and a chance to see things from a lot of different perspectives.  I deeply appreciate the thought that everyone put into their replies.

I have lived in the Bible Belt USA and in New England.  I have a gay sibling & and very religious parents. No one had a problem when the sibling came out as gay, but as far as I know, not one of my siblings or I have ever "come out" as atheist to my parents (and we are all atheists).  I never even thought about it until this discussion.  I guess we can hide or sidestep the atheism & it isn't a big deal---just don't talk about it.  But my gay sibling didn't really have the option to not talk about it.  Well, either live a lie, shut them out, or come out as gay. 

[Rachel333]

2 hours ago, Iamtheway said:

Me too! I loved it there! So much. Did you live at Toroa? It would be a very small world if we were there at the same time.

I stayed at a flat on Cumberland St. (This one, in fact! The one with the black fence) I was there Feb-Jun 2012. 

I really had a great time in NZ too.

[Pecansforeveryone]

I do get curious where breaking/splitting point will be on some social issues in various churches. I could see both the Southern Baptists and the United Methodists splitting on various issues. Inclusion/ acceptance of LGBT people for the Methodists. Calvinism/Arminianism for the Southern Baptists. 

[Iamtheway]

6 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

I stayed at a flat on Cumberland St. (This one, in fact! The one with the black fence) I was there Feb-Jun 2012. 

I really had a great time in NZ too.

Cool! I miss Dunedin. I’m old though so I was there in 2002.

I really lucked out with my flatmates in Toroa and loved all four of them. Made many friends in NZ that I still consider among my closest friends even though we live far apart and don’t get to see eachother as often as I would like. 

Mr Way and I are planning a trip to NZ later this year or sometime next year. He loves it there too. 

[kiwi]

53 minutes ago, Iamtheway said:

Cool! I miss Dunedin. I’m old though so I was there in 2002.

I really lucked out with my flatmates in Toroa and loved all four of them. Made many friends in NZ that I still consider among my closest friends even though we live far apart and don’t get to see eachother as often as I would like. 

Mr Way and I are planning a trip to NZ later this year or sometime next year. He loves it there too. 

I live two hours north of Dunedin  wouldn’t want to live anywhere else in the world! Sea at our doorstep, mountains and lakes less than an hour away - amazing lifestyle!

[Iamtheway]

7 hours ago, kiwi said:

I live two hours north of Dunedin  wouldn’t want to live anywhere else in the world! Sea at our doorstep, mountains and lakes less than an hour away - amazing lifestyle!

I might have told Mr Way that we’d probably live on his side of the world if he was kiwi. He’s aussie though and that’s not the same. 

So now he’s stuck in snowy Sweden. 

[Mama Mia]

On 6/9/2018 at 4:27 PM, SapphireSlytherin said:

@Rachel333 - I've "come out" (again, apologies if co-opting that phrase isn't PC) as atheist and it was incredibly difficult for me, especially with my family's beliefs being front-and-center in their lives.

And atheists HAVE been killed, just for being atheist. And did you know SEVEN states in the USA prohibit atheists from holding office? 

Woah - how on earth is that legal??? Damn. 

I live in an area of California where people don’t really talk about their religious ( or non-religious) beliefs in public. Even with my own family and friends - I think I know roughly half of their general outlook on religion. If that. 

-I’ve learned so much here about how different regions of the US operate. It has actually shifted some of my positions on issues, or at least made me more open-minded/understanding - which is not usual for the internet ! 

[Pecansforeveryone]

56 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

Woah - how on earth is that legal??? Damn. 

I live in an area of California where people don’t really talk about their religious ( or non-religious) beliefs in public. Even with my own family and friends - I think I know roughly half of their general outlook on religion. If that. 

-I’ve learned so much here about how different regions of the US operate. It has actually shifted some of my positions on issues, or at least made me more open-minded/understanding - which is not usual for the internet ! 

This kind of thing is why I adamantly believe in the separation of church and state. Barry Goldwater warned about the rise of the Religious Right and them inserting themselves into the Republican Party.  It's just the greatest irony that the Religious Right idolized a president (Regan) who was a divorced ex-movie star who was always uncomfortable and evasive when asked if he was "born-again." Carter was the faithfully married, "born again" Baptist. The cognitive dissonance has always been deeply entrenched in the Religious Right in their quest for power. 

[fundiesfordays]

The same Christians voted Trump in office.

Satan himself is a better Christian than Trump.

[Pecansforeveryone]

33 minutes ago, fundiesfordays said:

The same Christians voted Trump in office.

Satan himself is a better Christian than Trump.

Satan was at least once upon a time, Lucifer the bearer of light. Trump, it would seem, was bad from the get go.

[Nowyn]

On 6/10/2018 at 9:36 PM, finnlassie said:

I'm in Finland (heja, neighbour!) and it's kinda the same here. Coming out as gay? Eh. Being openly religious? WHAT THE FUCK?!?!?!

Personally, some of my friends will sigh if I mention something about my beliefs (not out of the blue, always related to the topic). I have a good amount of Christian friends and I'm active in my circles, but I think I have more athiest & non-practicing Christians in my group of friends and acquaintances. And being religious is a no-no to them. Like... in my experience they're more open to people who believe in healing crystals than to practicing Christians.

And, well, I am a bit more conservative than the average Christian Finn. I'm not ashamed of it. But I just cannot talk about it to a lot of people, because I know I'll get the huffs instead of constructive discussion.

This of course is just my personal experience, I'm not gonna speak for all Finns, be they athiests or religious.

I think you summarized it pretty well. I'm part of a couple of subcultures and we are very left and liberal. It is probably weirder to come out as a religious than atheist or gay in my circles. I'm fine with religion unless someone thumps me with a bible. Admittedly being creationist makes me incredulous.

In general, you don't usually have to come out being atheist. You have to come out as gay and religious. Being gay does carry social stigma but not to my generation. My parents (born in the 50's) have issues with it.

And yes, I guess I will piggyback your posts as I don't have my own ideas.

[NakedKnees]

The TV show Silicon Valley has one episode with a pretty funny subplot about a guy being "outed" as Christian against his will, obviously in a silicon valley community.

Communities like that certainly exist (I grew up liberal in urban California, hello), I would call this situation an "exception that proves the rule" type of circumstance, at least in the Western/developed world.