JinJer 39: Waiting to Meet Their Baby Daughter

[victoriasponge]

Okay so backstory, I grew up Catholic, left and became hardline-atheist and have drifted towards a place of more quiet contemplation. I have recently begun attending church again. Longer version under spoiler.

Spoiler

So I've long been told that I know, deep-down, God is real. Yet, deep-down, it's made far more sense to me since I was about fifteen that there was no God at all. I went to my friend's church at Hillsong and just got told that everyone was a Christian really, Catholics were sinners, and if I hadn't heard from God, it was my own fault and I hadn't done it right. I did Alpha and that didn't really work. Thing is, as I left the Church, I plead with God to talk to me, to give me a sign, a feeling, whatever. I felt quite literally empty. Read the Bible, but all the bits that had confused me now made no sense whatsoever. At school, I was told that only Christians could be good people. I was scared to be a bad person, but I had no reason to believe. I went completely the other way, read Dawkins and Hitchins, started looking into all the bits of science I had never looked into - evolution, the Big Bang etc. But as I've grown up, I've rejected them too, hating religion solves nothing, we need to understand each other. I've started going to Church again, and will admit the community is excellent, but that doesn't mean it's true either. They've prayed for me, I've prayed for me, I've worshipped and shouted out to God to show me what I'm missing, to show me why they're so convinced. I've read the Bible, I've chatted with people about their beliefs. But none of it makes sense. Not to me anyway.

I also now have more issues theologically with Christianity than I did when I was fifteen. (Of course, disliking theology doesn't mean it's untrue) My Gran is in Hell according to the Bible - spending an eternity of misery, pain and suffering for the crime of not believing in Jesus, yet a serial killer can repent and go to Heaven? That's not justice in my eyes. God is omnipotent, yet punished all of humanity for the curiosity He designed us with? I don't know. I don't get it.

Anyway. All this is to say I've wrestled with it a lot. I now am pretty extreme, at least for the UK, in some aspects. We need true separation of Church and State. No state-funded religious schools, no Christians automatically in the House of Lords, the Queen should not be both head of State and Church. (In fact, I'd like rid of the monarchy) Yet this also falls the other way, I personally don't like hijabs, but it's not up to me or the state to ban them in any way, or any form of religious expression that doesn't hurt others. I have other views that are weirdly extreme to both ends. I think the refugee relocation programme is a great thing and Europe should have embraced it further. However, I don't think it should be opened up to all the economic migrants who have taken advantage of the situation, they are illegal immigrants not refugees. It's not who the programme is for. I also think that, while circumstances should be taken into account for where to place refugees, it's not Europe's place to give them exactly where they want, as the whole point of the relocation programme was to spread out the (expensive) burden across all member states. If they are given free accommodation, free education, free language classes and free assistance, I think we've done our job. I think parents should have to have their kids fully vaccinated to be allowed into state schools. I don't think private schools should count as a charitable organisation. I'm anti-grammar schools.

I think most people hold views that are a bit 'out there' one way or another. What people need to do is listen, respond and discuss. The issue with religious fundamentalism in particular is there is no listening, there cannot be. Either their worldview is wholly right or wholly wrong, there is no in between.

[Cleopatra7]

21 hours ago, Evangeline said:

I agree. Fundamentalism in the US grew from a backlash against Catholicism. The "fundamentals" are the Bible and the literal interpretation of it. Whereas other denominations allow tradition, reason and personal experience to guide them, fundamentalists (say they) do not. So, you can be a fundamentalist and not be in a cult, not be politically active at all, and not really care what other people do. I don't think the word fundamentalist works very well outside this context, actually. 

Fundamentalism was a movement within American Protestantism in the nineteenth century to uphold what theological conservatives believed were the “fundamentals” of Christianity contra the modernists who wanted to reconcile new findings in science with religion:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamentalist–Modernist_Controversy

Catholicism and anti-Catholic didn’t really have anything to do with the emergence of fundamentalism as such.

During the time of the fundamentalist-modernist controversy, anti- Catholic sentiment was quite common among all segments American society, regardless of one’s religious or political views. Catholicism was regarded in nineteenth century America the way Islam is now, as an inherently anti-democratic, repressive force that was incompatible with modernity and small r republican values. Until the 1950s or so, the US was considered a Protestant nation not just a Christian nation or a Judeo-Christian nation. Catholicism was considered an inferior belief system followed by backward nations in Latin America and swarthy Southern European types, whereas Protestantism was the religion of the more advanced Northern Europeans, especially WASPs. Thus anti-Catholicism wasn’t so much a fundie thing so much as it was what “Real Americans” believed.

[SilverBeach]

14 hours ago, victoriasponge said:

I'm anti-grammar schools

What does this mean? Where I'm from, it's kindergarten through 8th grade. I'm sure you aren't against non-high chool education, LOL.

[Bad Wolf]

Grammar schools in England were secondary schools for kids who scored high on standardized tests. It was known as the eleven plus when I went to school. They were a social experiment to give ordinary kids a similar education to public (private) schools. They were free. They taught Latin and other languages.

Public schools in England are private boarding schools for rich folks. Confusing, I know. Hope that clears things up a bit. I think that's what @Victoria Sponge meant by grammar school.

[Pecansforeveryone]

I would just like to interject many (just possibly most) atheists in the United States used to be religious. I have said before, there is anecdotal evidence to suggest many skeptics have more familiarity with the Bible than most Christians. While many atheists, including myself, would love for Chritians in general, to be more tolerant and accepting, that isn't why many atheists leave religion behind. We examined the evidence (historical, scientific, etc) for the evidence of deities. The evidence proved sorely lacking, hence atheism. Some of my favorite bloggers and You Tubers who provide insight into this include: Godless in Dixie by Neil Carter, Roll to Disbelieve by Captain Cassidy, and The Thinking Atheist. 

[Rachel333]

1 hour ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I would just like to interject many (just possibly most) atheists in the United States used to be religious. I have said before, there is anecdotal evidence to suggest many skeptics have more familiarity with the Bible than most Christians. While many atheists, including myself, would love for Chritians in general, to be more tolerant and accepting, that isn't why many atheists leave religion behind. We examined the evidence (historical, scientific, etc) for the evidence of deities. The evidence proved sorely lacking, hence atheism. Some of my favorite bloggers and You Tubers who provide insight into this include: Godless in Dixie by Neil Carter, Roll to Disbelieve by Captain Cassidy, and The Thinking Atheist. 

Yes! I'm an ex-Christian atheist and it bothers me when people think atheists must just be disappointed by Christians. Christians aren't really the issue for me. They're not special; like every other group, there are both good and bad Christians. The issue for me is simply that I don't believe in Christianity. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

9 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

Yes! I'm an ex-Christian atheist and it bothers me when people think atheists must just be disappointed by Christians. Christians aren't really the issue for me. They're not special; like every other group, there are both good and bad Christians. The issue for me is simply that I don't believe in Christianity. 

Yes, I think even progressive Christians can get on my nerves with unintentional arrogance and hubris. Oh, don't listen to those fundamentalists. They are distorting Christianity, getting it wrong. (Well, they would say the same about you. There are quite possibily thousands of sects of Christianity. And an all-powerful, all-knowing deity who could clear up all the confusion in about 5 minutes, but opts not to because.... reasons.) I promise there are many atheists out there  who lead happy, fullfilled lives. All that to say, I truly do wish the best for all people, religious and irreligious alike. Lets focus on our common bond of humanity. Doing unto others will make the world a better place. 

[KelseyAnn]

15 hours ago, Pecansforeveryone said:

I would just like to interject many (just possibly most) atheists in the United States used to be religious. I have said before, there is anecdotal evidence to suggest many skeptics have more familiarity with the Bible than most Christians. While many atheists, including myself, would love for Chritians in general, to be more tolerant and accepting, that isn't why many atheists leave religion behind. We examined the evidence (historical, scientific, etc) for the evidence of deities. The evidence proved sorely lacking, hence atheism. Some of my favorite bloggers and You Tubers who provide insight into this include: Godless in Dixie by Neil Carter, Roll to Disbelieve by Captain Cassidy, and The Thinking Atheist. 

I'm in that boat- when I was still trying to pray away all my problems I ended up reading the entire bible all the way through in ten months for at least 3 or 4 years. I might not remember specific page numbers or which phrase came from which book- but I'm sure I know what's in there and what it means. 

[MargaretElliott]

I'm an agnostic now (I hardly know the bible, so I'm a bad example for the above theory ) but I was raised Catholic, and my mother adamantly believes that if someone lives a good life and repents any sin, they'll go to heaven- regardless of the religion they practice. I didn't really think this was an unusual belief until I went to a youth group with one of my friends (who's Quiverfull fundie now, oddly enough) and they were really pushing the "our beliefs are the right one" agenda. Really put me off. I don't like people telling me what to do. So while my mom might be experiencing some cognitive dissonance- the whole one-true-God thing is a major tenant of Christianity she chooses to ignore- I think her belief is nice, and a lot more positive than some of the pushier Christians who have tried to convince me to go to church.

[Carm_88]

If fundies (like OfJill, JB, Joshley, Jill Rodrigues, etc) are going to heaven, I don't want to go. I would much prefer to go to hell! 

[feministxtian]

@MargaretElliott I believe much the same way. My reasoning is that God's ways and mind are so far above mine that I don't have the right to say or judge (except for those assholes who claim to speak for God and don't say anything that sounds remotely like the teachings of Christ). Do I believe my particular beliefs are the only right ones? Well, they are for me. I look more at people's actions more than their words, because I believe actions speak much louder (see 1 Corinthians 13 and Matthew 25:31-46). 

 

[jqlgoblue]

8 hours ago, MargaretElliott said:

I'm an agnostic now (I hardly know the bible, so I'm a bad example for the above theory ) but I was raised Catholic, and my mother adamantly believes that if someone lives a good life and repents any sin, they'll go to heaven- regardless of the religion they practice. I didn't really think this was an unusual belief until I went to a youth group with one of my friends (who's Quiverfull fundie now, oddly enough) and they were really pushing the "our beliefs are the right one" agenda. Really put me off. I don't like people telling me what to do. So while my mom might be experiencing some cognitive dissonance- the whole one-true-God thing is a major tenant of Christianity she chooses to ignore- I think her belief is nice, and a lot more positive than some of the pushier Christians who have tried to convince me to go to church.

This was basically the story my lapsed Catholic mother gave me. I'm not sure if it was to comfort me, a half Catholic, half Jewish child (though of course, that isn't really a thing). However it does seem to me a fair number of Catholics think this way, though it is probably not the majority. I oddly still believe this today. Like if Jesus is at the pearly gates I'll be judged by the golden rule.

On the other hand, I actually know more about Judaism and Jewish history than a lot of my Jewish friends... and I have only ever been to Synagogue for Bat Mitzvahs. My dad (the atheist) somehow pulled off making me culturally Jewish ...

[SorenaJ]

I don't believe in hell, I believe we are all going the same place. But that place might be big (and have prison cells), so righteous people won't run into the likes of Dedick, JB etc. 

The reason I believe is I suppose, I believe in all sort of supernatural stuff, magic, ghosts, you name it, so believing in God doesn't seem like a stretch. I don't believe we would be left on a floating rock in a sea of stars without any instruction. 

[PainfullyAware]

I grew up with a hippie Buddhist parent and agnostic mainstream Christian parent. I would probably say that I'm agnostic. After studying anthropology, I begin to wonder by the fact that virtually all cultures have a conception of divinity. I would go so far as to say that it's human nature to believe in the sacred alongside the profane. Personally I believe that each religion reveals a different mask of the same divine presence.

Even the mysteries of astrophysics and cosmology could be put in that category of "something out there beyond what we comprehend." But I don't know what that is. In the meantime I'll meditate on the interconnected, interdependent nature of life, matter and energy. (See what happens when you raise an agnostic Buddhist? Endless vascillating. :D)

[Someone Out There]

From memory a few years ago I came across an article (or it could have been something on the radio) that indicated that some people were more inclined to be spiritual/religious than others.  I believe there were also genetic factors at play in it.

I don't know how good/valid the research on this was.

[SilverBeach]

On 5/27/2018 at 10:59 PM, Pecansforeveryone said:

Yes, I think even progressive Christians can get on my nerves with unintentional arrogance and hubris. Oh, don't listen to those fundamentalists. They are distorting Christianity, getting it wrong. (Well, they would say the same about you. There are quite possibily thousands of sects of Christianity. And an all-powerful, all-knowing deity who could clear up all the confusion in about 5 minutes, but opts not to because.... reasons.) I promise there are many atheists out there  who lead happy, fullfilled lives. All that to say, I truly do wish the best for all people, religious and irreligious alike. Lets focus on our common bond of humanity. Doing unto others will make the world a better place. 

I am probably one of those progressive Christians, but I am not arrogant about it and I hope I don't get on your nerves. No defense of Christian assholes or assholes of any stripe is coming from me. There are a zillion sects of most religions. I know there are folks of all beliefs, or not, who lead happy and fulfilling lives. I wish people would judge individuals, not categories. There are atheists with unintentional arrogance and hubris also, who paint all believer with the same brush. We aren't all ignorant, backwards, gullible, uneducated cretins.

Look, I care not what others believe or don't. Not my job to save their soul or any such nonsense. All I ask is that the same respect I show be given to me. Couldn't agree more with your last two sentences.

[Pecansforeveryone]

2 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

I am probably one of those progressive Christians, but I am not arrogant about it and I hope I don't get on your nerves. No defense of Christian assholes or assholes of any stripe is coming from me. There are a zillion sects of most religions. I know there are folks of all beliefs, or not, who lead happy and fulfilling lives. I wish people would judge individuals, not categories. There are atheists with unintentional arrogance and hubris also, who paint all believer with the same brush. We aren't all ignorant, backwards, gullible, uneducated cretins.

Look, I care not what others believe or don't. Not my job to save their soul or any such nonsense. All I ask is that the same respect I show be given to me. Couldn't agree more with your last two sentences.

I don't doubt you are wonderful. No facetiousness. I am certainly grateful for every kind person of faith out there. I double down on this because atheists are a minority group. We are less than 10% of the population. Atheists in the Bible Belt are very much subject to ostracism and discrimination. One of 1st questions some atheists get is, "Well then, what stops you from raping and murdering then?" A question that is both extremely painful and insulting.  We are not better than anyone else. We are subject to the same flaws and dysfunctions as any person of faith. I always recommend looking up Neil Carter on you tube.  He is the thoughtful, soft spoken, considerate atheist we have all been waiting for. His post on An atheist visits church is spot on. Another kind, thoughtful blogger and blogger is Hehmat Meta of the Friendly Atheist. 

[Rik_Bik]

I posted this on Reddit (but took the post down since someone was calling on In Touch to run a story about it...which I did NOT want to happen) so some of you may have seen it. Here’s the post with way less information: my cousin met and got lunch with Jeremy after a conference (my cousin is religious in the same vein as the Vuolo’s). They talked about being a pastor in a church and probably about theology. He said Jeremy was nice- and I was really shocked to hear that he was willing to get lunch with a random person. My cousin and Jeremy exchanged texts and stuff. I’m 3 degrees of separation from Jim Bob now  

[EmmieJ]

20 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

If fundies (like OfJill, JB, Joshley, Jill Rodrigues, etc) are going to heaven, I don't want to go. I would much prefer to go to hell! 

Yep.  It would really suck if we couldn't get away from fundies in the after life.  Can you imagine the smugness level?  

[Rachel333]

@Pecansforeveryone I haven't read his blog in a while, but I really like Neil Carter too. I can relate to him a lot since he's ex-Christian. I feel sometimes like some of the atheists who didn't come from religious homes or came from not particularly observant homes don't really get what it's like to specifically be ex-religious and can be kind of dismissive about the struggles that entails, so I appreciate hearing from people like Neil Carter.

[SapphireSlytherin]

Something I've always wondered, and I mean no disrespect to anyone here:

Which is more difficult? Coming out as gay or coming out as atheist? Please forgive me if I've unintentionally appropriated an incorrect term for revealing atheism.

Being atheist in the Bible belt is... difficult. Being atheist in a highly religious family is... frustrating. 

If anyone here is both gay AND atheist, I'd love to hear comparisons/contrasts. 

Edit:  ESPECIALLY since being atheist is a choice, and being gay is not.

 

[kiwi]

Here in NZ where I live there are quite a few churches (various denominations). I grew up only going to church with my Grandparents on Christmas Eve. Have since realised as an adult that we only went so that our parents has more present wrapping/building time. Lol! 

 

I was married in a presbertarian (sp??) church, only because it has meaning because my parents got married there too. And the other option was a catholic church my husband grew up attending (every Sunday, holidays etc). And tbh when we got married 12yrs ago very little people got married outside of churches regardless of beliefs. People who were married outside on beaches or gardens tended to be people on low budgets or who had kids prior to marriage (huge generalisation here, but from my knowledge fairly accurate). 

 

Now i have children and we have lived a little we are both very atheist. Its not something we flash around, its rather common here not to be religious or attend church even if you are. Churches are dying out - most of the congregations would be 60+yr olds, there is one “youth christian church” that has maybe 100 members 0-40yr olds, mainly young families. We have approx 30,000 people in a 1,000 square mile area (2,700 sq km). 

 

I would guess in another 20 years that there will be very few churches in our area, the congregations are literally dying! 

 

I have nothing against religion... this sums up my views lol! 

[Chocolatecheesecake]

@SapphireSlytherin I really wouldn't say that being atheist is a choice. At least for me, it's just a fundamental truth that I feel within me, just like other people seem to feel that God is real. I never "chose" not to believe in God, in fact, I would LOVE to see my grandparents again in heaven, but I just can't believe that there is one. Religion has just always sounded like magic and fairytales to me but I never sat down at said: ok, I choose to be an atheist now.

[SapphireSlytherin]

@Chocolatecheesecake - True. But it's a choice in that atheism isn't a biological trait.

[nastyhobbitses]

For me, I started to realize that I just couldn't buy into the idea of a higher power when I was around 10. It just didn't jibe with what I knew and how I saw the world and how I thought it worked. I kinda pretended I was on board because I wanted to have a Bat Mitzvah. Neither of my parents were especially theistic in their outlook, and we always treated Judaism as more cultural and philosophical than something we literally believed, so it was pretty easy for me to "come out" to my parents as a non-believer. I think that completely calling myself an atheist isn't really accurate, though, because I still very much identify as Jewish and even though I don't believe in a god, I enjoy taking part in the rituals (which I see as an aspect of my culture and ethnicity rather than something I'm doing because I think a god told me to do it) and my outlook on life is informed by Jewish teachings and culture. So I guess I'm atheiewish, if that's even a thing.