JinJer 39: Waiting to Meet Their Baby Daughter

[singsingsing]

2 minutes ago, ItsaJjungle said:

Okay...real question for you guys...not trying to be disrespectful or ignorant in any way. I’ve just never thought about this in this way...

if you think it is NOT a choice to be an atheist, does that mean non-atheists also don’t have a choice? I’ve always considered my own belief in God to be a choice that I could choose to change at any time. I’m always evaluating various types of “evidence” and asking myself how this changes (or doesn’t change) my relationship with or perception of God (and my perceptions have changed many times over the years...so I imagine it is always possible that my ultimate belief in him also could change). I know I didn’t choose my sexuality, and my LGBTQ friends didn’t choose theirs...somehow the idea of choosing atheism or religion (or any shade in between) seems to make more sense to me. I mean, I actively choose which “micro-beliefs” to practice within my faith. I believe most Fundies have actively chosen Fundie-dom (unless they were children raised in it and fully brainwashed/not able to make their own choices), and have the choice to stop believing. 

Anyway...I hope you know I am asking respectfully! And totally curious about others thoughts on this. I’ve never thought about it before! 

Acknowledging that your beliefs could possibly change in the future is different than choosing to change them. I couldn’t just decide right now to believe in Zeus, for example, because I have no evidence that Zeus exists and a lot of evidence to the contrary. I could choose to pretend to believe, but that’s not the same as believing. If at some point in the future I’m presented with very compelling evidence that Zeus does in fact exist, I may at that point believe - but until then, I quite literally *can’t* believe in Zeus, so in actual fact I have no choice but to not believe.

(Another non-religious example would be that I can’t simply choose to believe that I was adopted. I have no evidence that I was adopted and plenty of evidence that I wasn’t. It would take very extraordinary evidence to convince me that I was in fact adopted, so choosing to believe that I was would be impossible.)

[KelseyAnn]

And the end of the day I think it comes down to the fact that nobody (or almost nobody) is gonna get beat up or shunned from workplaces because they're atheists. At least not in America. 

Quite frankly, I think its offensive to even compare coming out as gay to coming out as athiest. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

33 minutes ago, ItsaJjungle said:

Okay...real question for you guys...not trying to be disrespectful or ignorant in any way. I’ve just never thought about this in this way...

if you think it is NOT a choice to be an atheist, does that mean non-atheists also don’t have a choice? I’ve always considered my own belief in God to be a choice that I could choose to change at any time. I’m always evaluating various types of “evidence” and asking myself how this changes (or doesn’t change) my relationship with or perception of God (and my perceptions have changed many times over the years...so I imagine it is always possible that my ultimate belief in him also could change). I know I didn’t choose my sexuality, and my LGBTQ friends didn’t choose theirs...somehow the idea of choosing atheism or religion (or any shade in between) seems to make more sense to me. I mean, I actively choose which “micro-beliefs” to practice within my faith. I believe most Fundies have actively chosen Fundie-dom (unless they were children raised in it and fully brainwashed/not able to make their own choices), and have the choice to stop believing. 

Anyway...I hope you know I am asking respectfully! And totally curious about others thoughts on this. I’ve never thought about it before! 

I think looking into the neurological hard wiring of religious beliefs and experiences is fascinating. This atheist is 100% supportive of such research. Neil Carter referenced the "evolution" of religious beliefs changing with the times. He predicted that as the younger generation of evangelicals come into power, we will see more LGBT friendly churches as an "evolution" of social beliefs now that same-sex marriage is legal. These same evangelicals will then have the nerve to claim they were LGBT friendly all along. I'm laughing and grinding my teeth at the same time because I think he's right. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

Just now, KelseyAnn said:

shunned from workplaces because they're atheists. At least not in America.

Actually - it's quite common in many organizations. I have an atheist friend who works for a healthcare company, which happens to be a Catholic-based outfit. She was shunned by her officemates when they found out she was atheist (she never made a big deal about it, but did reply truthfully when she was asked why she didn't attend any of the masses in the hospital chapel). Luckily, she was able to transfer to a different building and now she just keeps her trap shut.

 

[Pecansforeveryone]

8 minutes ago, KelseyAnn said:

And the end of the day I think it comes down to the fact that nobody (or almost nobody) is gonna get beat up or shunned from workplaces because they're atheists. At least not in America. 

Quite frankly, I think its offensive to even compare coming out as gay to coming out as athiest. 

Beat up, no. Thats unspeakable, and my heart 100% goes out to the LGBT community on that. I would always say it's worse for the LGBT community than for atheists in the United States. Some atheists in the Bible Belt do get shunned in the workplace. Neil Carter was fired from his public school teaching job after it was discovered he was an atheist.( As a tangent, atheists in Bangladesh do live with a death sentence over their heads. Atheist bloggers have been murdered there.) 

[Seculardaisy]

8 hours ago, KelseyAnn said:

And the end of the day I think it comes down to the fact that nobody (or almost nobody) is gonna get beat up or shunned from workplaces because they're atheists. At least not in America. 

Quite frankly, I think its offensive to even compare coming out as gay to coming out as athiest. 

I would never tell anybody at my current work place that I was an atheist because there is plenty of evidence out there that people do not believe Atheists can have good morals/character. Friends at work can talk openly about being religious because that is just what is expected.

It’s definitely taboo and I definitely had a manager at my last job treat me differently when she found out which is why I adopted the “don’t tell anyone rule” at my new job.

EDIT: And I would never even claim to have it half as hard as somebody in the LGBT community. I just want to point out that there definitely is work place judgement for atheists in my area.

[Joyfully_Unavailable]

Not entirely sure what I expected baby Jeremy to look like but I was COMPLETELY caught off guard by this

Edit: for those like me who struggle with Instagram, you may have to click the link to be able to scroll to the next picture. I promise, it’s worth it.

[candygirl200413]

To be honest though he was deff still in his chubby phase, I'm not sure if they look like there the same age in the photos?

[QuiverFullofBooks]

Wow, that baby does not look like him at all.

[HarleyQuinn]

I hate to admit it but that's fucking hilarious. 

[Chewing Gum]

I laughed so hard. He has a sense of humor similar to mine, love that. 

[finnlassie]

Oh God I'm glad I finished my coffee before checking that picture.

[gameofunbeknowns]

On 6/1/2018 at 7:52 PM, SapphireSlytherin said:

Something I've always wondered, and I mean no disrespect to anyone here:

Which is more difficult? Coming out as gay or coming out as atheist? Please forgive me if I've unintentionally appropriated an incorrect term for revealing atheism.

Being atheist in the Bible belt is... difficult. Being atheist in a highly religious family is... frustrating. 

If anyone here is both gay AND atheist, I'd love to hear comparisons/contrasts. 

Edit:  ESPECIALLY since being atheist is a choice, and being gay is not.

 

Being Atheist was absolutely not a choice for me. I’ve never believed but have often agonized over wishing I could. I’m not gay but some of my family members have made the comparison between the two saying that it would be better if I were because in that case I could repent for living a gay lifestyle, but in order to go to heaven I’d have to accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior. 

I don’t feel I have a right as a straight female to speculate over which is harder, but I suspect being gay is. 

Eta. I’ve only ever come out as an atheist, so my answer would be pure speculation. A lot of people were devastated though. I live in the Bible Belt. @SapphireSlytherin

[SapphireSlytherin]

I didn't ask which was harder to be, I asked if it was harder coming out as gay or atheist.

[Meggo]

On ‎6‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 7:27 PM, Seculardaisy said:

I would never tell anybody at my current work place that I was an atheist because there is plenty of evidence out there that people do not believe Atheists can have good morals/character. Friends at work can talk openly about being religious because that is just what is expected.

It’s definitely taboo and I definitely had a manager at my last job treat me differently when she found out which is why I adopted the “don’t tell anyone rule” at my new job.

EDIT: And I would never even claim to have it half as hard as somebody in the LGBT community. I just want to point out that there definitely is work place judgement for atheists in my area.

This boggles my mind. 

If a co-worker said "I'm an atheist" - I'd be like "oh - um - okay .... so did you send the meeting notice?" It does NOT matter to me. Not one bit. I would prefer not to be clocked over the head with your religion or lack of (so let's not have prayer lunches during the work day or start meetings off with prayer or whatever) - but.... you do you. 

(not saying it doesn't happen - it just baffles me) 

[louisa05]

I've said this before and not been believed, but here it is...

In general in the Midwest, people don't talk about religion that much. Yes, we have a lot of evangelicals. Yes, we have a ton of churches. But people don't sit around discussing who is what religion. In Nebraska, there is a reticence about such things. We shared a wall with our landlady for nine years (me)/fifteen years (husband). We knew when she showered. She knew when we showered. She and I talked about a ton of things over the years and still talk. And we have no idea what religion she professes if any. We have no idea what religion she was raised in, if any. She knows that we go to church, I assume--because the garage doors were in proximity to the bedrooms and she likely heard us leave every Sunday morning. She never asked. 

I know that our closest new neighbors attend church as the woman was complaining about fighting with her 13 year old about an appropriate confirmation dress. That's all I know. I know they aren't Catholic as we would have seen them at confirmation classes which we teach. But there are multiple Lutheran churches in town and they confirm. But there is also an Episcopal church and a Methodist church and they do as well. So I have no idea. And I didn't ask. Because around here, we don't ask about that. 

I have no idea what the religious preferences are of anyone I now work with. I spent seven weeks in the same building and couldn't tell you anything about any other staff member's beliefs. Mr. 05 confirms that he has no idea what, if any, religion anyone at his work belongs to and that he has literally never mentioned his own at work.  I don't know what "coming out as atheist" in the workplace here would entail as it would be the same as "coming out as Presbyterian" since generally no one sits around comparing religious beliefs. 

[libgirl2]

That is hysterical! Wow! Can't say I blame him. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

LOL - I live in the MidWest too, and religion is FREQUENTLY a topic of conversation, mainly because so MANY people here are Catholic that when someone doesn't show up at church for fish fries or "community" barbecues or church-sponsored festivals or send their kids to the neighborhood/parish school - you get Questions. (Capitalized on purpose.)

 

 

[tabitha2]

Every church ,every religion has its Church ladies and Nosy Bertha Better than You’s 

 

 

 

 

[Frumper]

11 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

LOL - I live in the MidWest too, and religion is FREQUENTLY a topic of conversation, mainly because so MANY people here are Catholic that when someone doesn't show up at church for fish fries or "community" barbecues or church-sponsored festivals or send their kids to the neighborhood/parish school - you get Questions. (Capitalized on purpose.)

I'm sort of on the border of midwest and south (Kentucky), and this is 100% my experience too.  Which fish fry you are going to and/or working is the topic of conversation on every Friday during Lent.  I live in a neighborhood that borders two parishes so when I say where I live the next question is almost always a question about which of the two churches I go to.  There aren't a lot of theological discussions but religion is always being discussed because catholicism is sort of a default.  It doesn't really bother me though.

[melon]

I live in the South,and used to work in a company with 500 employees.It seemed that many were deeply religious.

I was at work,one day,and a worker says."Mrs.Melon,are you an atheist?Donnie and Jamie are."Another told me I needed to find a church and go to it on Sunday.

And I had another friend..she was rude about it.Well,when she drank,which was often,she wanted to argue..pick an argument.We were having some bad weather,and since I was here for a catagory 5 hurricane....some bad weather doesn't phase me.She called me to come over(I used to make my decision by the sound of her voice,if she was slurred..I wasn't going).Claimed it was an emergency...I go over..she's making a mountain out of a molehill...then she starts on religion."How can you believe in God?""There is no God"" You're stupid if you believe in God".I didn't say anything because I hate confrontation,but I left soon..she's like "Oh,I hope I didn't make you mad,but a god would never allow children to suffer.

 

[louisa05]

16 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

LOL - I live in the MidWest too, and religion is FREQUENTLY a topic of conversation, mainly because so MANY people here are Catholic that when someone doesn't show up at church for fish fries or "community" barbecues or church-sponsored festivals or send their kids to the neighborhood/parish school - you get Questions. (Capitalized on purpose.)

 

 

I think that it may come up more when you get into very small towns. The town my husband's parents grew up in is teeny tiny (population as of 2010 was 46 and I know of 3 deaths and 0 births since then--so probably currently 43) and has one church which is Catholic. It was a Polish immigrant community and everyone was Catholic. But people don't really move into those places from outside, either, so it's not going to be an issue, and not everyone attends mass. Out of 43 people, there are about 20 at any given Sunday mass, so obviously, everyone is not a practicing Catholic anymore--which when I am entertained by the town gossip endlessly in the presence of my mother-in-law and her mother is never commented on. There are maybe five jobs there so everyone is leaving to go to the nearest larger towns to work where the climate will be different, as well. Those towns are larger than the one I live in where religion is simply not a topic of conversation. 

[louisa05]

I have to say this, though: Do you all really equate eating at fish fries as being religious? 

Around here, eating at fish fries has to do with eating not being religious. A lot of people go to them because the food is good. The parish nearest to my mother's house feeds about 3000 people each week because the food is excellent and the cost is always a "free will donation". Radio stations that are not religious (owned by the massive media conglomerates) have people calling in about the best fish fries. Our parish regularly has more people than attend the parish show up. A friend who is not religious at all (I know because she is a closer friend) goes with a group to various ones each year. For the food. My town has 5 Lutheran churches and several others and one, singular Catholic parish. We are the minority here but people come to the fish fry. Plus there is absolutely nothing religious about a fish fry. Not any I've ever been to. We don't ask you to go do Stations of the Cross or recite a Hail Mary or anything before you eat. You just get served a bunch of unhealthy fried food and sit down and eat it. No one even expects you to say grace. I've never seen anyone say grace. The social hall has nothing "Catholic" in it, either. You aren't even going to see a stature or a crucifix if you come in the right door.  And seriously, it's kind of cheap. $11 per person-- all you can eat is a good deal. 

[SapphireSlytherin]

44 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

I think that it may come up more when you get into very small towns. 

I live in a metropolitan area of almost three million people, in a city of more than 300,000. It's a HUGE thing here.

[fundiesfordays]

I really appreciate this discussion. If the rest of the world had the level of respect and understanding of this community, I believe it would be a better place.

I live in the Bible Belt and I was raised in an evangelical pastor's home which was borderline fundie-lite. I can't imagine coming out as either LGBTQ+ or atheist. I'm quite sure I would've been treated the same way in either scenario - there would be tears, I would be told I was going to hell, that they would be praying for me, I would frequently be asked to reconsider, etc... I'm quite sure it would be more extreme if I came out as gay, but the type of treatment I personally would've received would be the same. That's just in my own personal circle; it would be different for others. (Like many posters have said, I too would not dare diminish the difficulty the LGBTQ+ community faces. Many of my friends have just recently come out or still haven't due to fear of their family's response.)

I will say, that any time I have ever asked questions about faith/religion, my parents were quick to panic and equate every question to turning away from God. I have been experiencing a lot of doubts as of late and haven't uttered a word to anyone. Being in the American South, most people around me are very religious and I am sure I would be ostracized by my family and coworkers if I expressed it.