Turpins 4: 2 Monsters, 13 Victims and Now an Interview!

[lilith]

8 hours ago, SilverBeach said:

I wonder if the child who orchestrated the escape also has Stockholm syndrome. She knew that shit was wrong.

She was also the sexual abuse victim. That may have been enough to bring the contradictions and hypocrisy home in a way her siblings didn’t experience.

[WiseGirl]

I'm glad the children were allowed this support during their testimony.

May they all be able to get therapy dogs if they need it and I wish them healing, support, lovem and good futures.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6941877/Raider-therapy-dog-comforted-two-adult-children-survived-California-house-horrors.html

And as for the parents  I suspect they will be on the bottom rung of the prison hierarchy ... 

[JermajestyDuggar]

When you look at the statements, it seems the oldest girl is the least forgiving in her statement. She and the oldest boy read some statements from their younger sisters and they were the ones that wrote the stuff that was the most heartbreaking. They were trying to defend their parents. This kind of makes sense to me because the oldest daughter is 30  and she’s seen it all. We know from interviews that when the oldest children are young, they were allowed to play outside and go to school.  So she knows how things changed dramatically through the years. While the younger ones may not remember anything being different. It was their norm. 

[smittykins]

12 hours ago, feministxtian said:

Admittedly I've made jokes over the years about my kids, like using #2 son to beat #1 son to death so they'd stop fighting, or telling them to go play in the traffic

My mom’s version of that was “go play marbles on the Thruway.”

May they never again walk the earth as free people.

[Aine]

The statements from the younger kids were heart breaking but also keep in mind their developmental level. Reconciling feeling love for someone (however misplaced) or missing that person with the awful things that they did to you is hard for anyone but especially when you're a child and you are still at the cognitive level of dichotomies- someone is good or bad, they are evil or virtuous, they are a liar or they are honest, they love you or they hate you. The last one is hard for children who have been abused even when they are adults. It becomes a little easier when you can begin seeing things in a more nuanced way but it's still something most people who have been abused by someone who was meant to love them, and who likely showed them love at times and also is a fixture in some of their best memories as well as their worst, have to grapple with. 

I'm a psychologist who specializes in trauma. I've been a foster parent and probably will be again. I consult at a children's residential home for kids that have been removed by CPS. I'm also a survivor of horrific abuse and torture at the hands of a parent. I don't fight it as much anymore, the remembering the good and understanding that while my mother was super messed up and straight up evil at times, that she still had moments of true 'good' and could make me feel so incredibly loved in certain moments and she could be so much fun sometimes. Even some memories that are objectively messed up and abusive are funny and good memories again now in retrospect although I'd hate to relive them- like when I threw a packet of loose leaf tobacco down the toilet because I wanted my mom to stop smoking but it went everywhere in the bathroom and she caught me and none of the tobacco could be saved and she chased me in circles around the house and yard with a wooden spoon and a belt trying to get me and screaming. But she just kept going...so I kept going and I was faster than her and then finally she lay down in the middle of the grass in the yard (drunk or high on something, I'm sure) and fell asleep snoring. So I went and found a pillow and a blanket and put the pillow beneath her head and the blanket over her and I'd just learned cursive at school and I wrote a note saying, "I learned cursive and I don't want you to die from cigarettes because they will kill you. I never want you to die. I'm sorry I took your chop chop. I love you," and then I stuck it down the front of her shirt. I never heard about it again but honestly, that day is a fond memory even now. It was funny and I loved her chasing me- it was like my mother was playing tag with me.

Anyway, yes the children went through hell and yes they have been brainwashed but also remember that not every memory they have with their parents is bad even if the bad outweighs the good. They'll likely go through some periods of thinking they are 100% evil and then periods of maybe over-exaggerating the good before they realize that even the most evil humans are not that 24/7. That even if they showed you love and you have good memories in moments, you deserved way more than that and they let you down in so many ways. That you can hold what are unfortunately a few of your best childhood memories somewhat fondly without feeling guilty because of the other awful things. You also learn that the vast majority of people will not understand the nuance that you do as you come to understand that you can not want any contact with someone but still miss them. That you can be angry at someone and believe that they have no place in your life but still carry a certain...care? I don't know the word...for them. That you will grieve what they never were to you and should have been and everything they stole from you but also still want that tiny slice of them back- the one that made you feel like you mattered and like you were loved even if you would never 'love' anyone else in that way.

[SilverBeach]

13 hours ago, Aine said:

I'm a psychologist who specializes in trauma.

Trauma bonding is a thing, isn't it? This concept helped me understand a lot of things. 

[Black Aliss]

15 hours ago, Aine said:

I don't fight it as much anymore, the remembering the good and understanding that while my mother was super messed up and straight up evil at times, that she still had moments of true 'good' and could make me feel so incredibly loved in certain moments and she could be so much fun sometimes. Even some memories that are objectively messed up and abusive are funny and good memories again now in retrospect although I'd hate to relive them. . . .

Thank you for putting into words something I've never been able to express about my mother.

[nausicaa]

On 4/20/2019 at 7:48 AM, JermajestyDuggar said:

When you look at the statements, it seems the oldest girl is the least forgiving in her statement. She and the oldest boy read some statements from their younger sisters and they were the ones that wrote the stuff that was the most heartbreaking. They were trying to defend their parents. This kind of makes sense to me because the oldest daughter is 30  and she’s seen it all. We know from interviews that when the oldest children are young, they were allowed to play outside and go to school.  So she knows how things changed dramatically through the years. While the younger ones may not remember anything being different. It was their norm. 

I also believe the oldest girl went to public school for a while and was bullied. So she saw firsthand how differently other kids lived. By the kids making fun of her clothing and hygiene she probably quickly realized her parents were negligent and their standards were not the norm. 

And I would take five years in a Federal prison over one year with the Turpins. Hands down. No contest. Not even a second thought. 

[nokidsmom]

 

On 4/19/2019 at 8:16 PM, Beermeet said:

My god, those poor children. They are so severely abused. The older ones ( in their 20's even) are going to have an especially hard time over coming the mindset these monsters put on them.  My heart is heavy and broken over the treatment of these children.  Damage that can't be overcome. Their " parents " are pure evil. How dare the "dad" say he loves them. 

All the children will have a lot to overcome, to what degree they can reclaim their lives will vary with each one and it will be a lifelong process.   

And the parents' statements that they love their kids, want the best and didn't mean to do anything wrong. WTF.  Just unbelieveable because by any measure what they did was not love, it was not wanting the best and don't tell me that they didn't know what they were doing was wrong.

I wonder if the parents will be separate from the general population while in prison.  Because even in prison, the prisoners have standards and abusing children marks you as the lowest of the low.

 

[Glasgowghirl]

58 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

I wonder if the parents will be separate from the general population while in prison.  Because even in prison, the prisoners have standards and abusing children marks you as the lowest of the low.

 

They probably will be put in a unit with other people requiring protection from general population but unless they are in solitary confinement, chances are they will still be targeted by other people in protective custody, not all of them have been convicted of crimes against children or sex crimes. 

 

[EmmieJ]

I truly hope all of the Turpin offspring will have continued counseling services made available to them, at no charge, for as long as they want/need it.  I cannot believe the continued claim by both dreadful parents that they acted out of love.  I think at least one of the children's impact statements put the blame mostly on the father, and said their mother didn't have a choice but to do what he told her to do, but I don't think that's true.  I think both parents had something seriously wrong with them from the start of that marriage up until they were finally caught, and it went from bad to worse.  Sick people, both of them.  Good luck in prison, and may you never have a single visitor.

[faraway]

Since I've read what the physical effects on some of the kids are I am truly shaken. I believe it's public knowledge at this point, I've seen it in news articles. It's irreversible, no amount of therapy can fix it. I hope they will all be able to heal.

[TheOneAndOnly]

29 minutes ago, EmmieJ said:

I think at least one of the children's impact statements put the blame mostly on the father, and said their mother didn't have a choice but to do what he told her to do

That sounds like the sort of spin an abuser might put on a situation to avoid blame for what they're doing.

[SassyPantswithASideofClass]

Those poor kiddos and young adults. I cannot even begin to imagine the hell and trauma they have gone through. My heart hurts for them...

[Dandruff]

Will they be in the same prison and entitled to conjugals?  Sorry for the profound grossness.

[SassyPantswithASideofClass]

On ‎4‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 5:06 PM, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

@lilith, I recently caught my 10 year old getting into a sugar bowl and trying to sneak honey. (We definitely have candy and cookies in our lives, so it isn't that she never gets dessert.) I put the sugar bowl and the squeeze bottle of honey in a different spot. It also never occurred to me to chain my child to a bed!

With an almost 2 year old, she's observant and curious. I have dried fruit in a bag in our lower cupboard at home. Now she loves her fruit, especially her dried fruit.  Never ever did it cross my mind to bolt the cupboard, nor did it cross my mind to chain her up as a punishment. Never has it crossed my mind to chain her up at all. I put the snacks up in a place where she can't reach and honestly she really doesn't care where its located. Girlie LOVES broccoli right now. (she will eat anything pretty much) Gets upset if she can't have any more and will side eye you if you're eating your portion of broccoli. Right now she's more curious about her books, soft plush toys, the big lego building blocks, running around playing outside, talking, and snuggling with mommy (me),  or Poppy and Gammie (Grandpa and Grandma)

[fundiefan]

The kids wouldn't have gone after caffeine if they had been raised in a humane manner. 

I grew up with soda in the house all the time. But, there were rules. We got to drink it on weekends and as a treat. Never any other time. Until we were in our teens, and made our own money with jobs or babysitting and could buy our own, we lived a life where soda was a treat. We never even questioned it and we sure didn't go get any from the closet when we knew we weren't allowed.

We didn't have to sneak out of bed to get something to eat or drink because we were fed & hydrated on a regular basis. Not because we were chained. Not because we were beaten if we did. But because that's what mom said. And, because we didn't need to sneak around for survival. 

Mom also said we didn't leave the house on Saturday until the cleaning was done. We weren't allowed to do about a million things that kids aren't allowed to do and we were required to do another million things that kids are required to do. And, by the same token, we were allowed and encouraged to do yet another million things kids want to do. 

Those parents are sick and twisted and they did untold damage to those they brought into this world. Nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies, excuses or lessens the lengths they went to to destroy, hurt, damage, ruin those kids. Monster sperm donor saying he loves his kids is too demented to for words. He not only physically and mentally abused them and starved them, he gave them the most unhealthy, backwards, incorrect, dangerous concept of what love is. 

Fuck them both. 

 

 

[Aine]

On 4/21/2019 at 11:14 AM, Black Aliss said:

Thank you for putting into words something I've never been able to express about my mother.

It's a tough road. The world wants you to love or hate too. The amount of times when I've been so incredibly worried or stressed because I am the only responsible adult relative to be around to sweep up my mother's crap and people who don't know her- all of her and all of her history and nuances- just tell me to kick her to the gutter. I've got better at knowing my limits and my boundaries but I understand my mother in a way I don't even understand myself (I think). I am an expert on my mother. I had to be in order to survive. That woman was my first ever functional behavioral analysis of my career and I didn't even know it ? 

But I just don't hate her at least 80% of the time. Don't want her to have the opportunity to hurt me, don't want her in my life, never want to give her power- but mostly I feel sad for her and I do believe that she wanted to be a good mother and that she wanted to love me- she just didn't know how because she had never been loved and she never had a mother do that. She loved the 'idea' of me but when I was a full little human who didn't just unquestioningly adore her 100% of the time? She couldn't deal with me being human and having a voice of my own that didn't match the fairy tale. But I believe she wanted to love me. I believe she tried sometimes. But another human who wasn't perfect and didn't always meet her fantasy? That's rejection to her.

Sending you love ❤️

[Aine]

On 4/22/2019 at 3:58 PM, faraway said:

Since I've read what the physical effects on some of the kids are I am truly shaken. I believe it's public knowledge at this point, I've seen it in news articles. It's irreversible, no amount of therapy can fix it. I hope they will all be able to heal.

There is also lifelong differences in brain volume, connectivity and functioning found it most children who have gone through prolonged abuse at a young age. Even if you remove the damage to the Turpin kids' organs and growth due to malnourishment and confinement, there is a huge amount of evidence that prolonged child maltreatment/neglect/abuse (at 'less heinous' levels than the Turpin kids experienced) still is associated with all sorts of chronic physical health problems. The mental health problems are expected but a lot of the public don't realize massive increase in risk for physical health problems after that kind of childhood.

I once confided in colleagues at a previous job (psychology related) just a couple of my health problems and one of the women that had known my mother decades before and her treatment of me started a rumor that I was a "pathological liar" because "that much shit doesn't happen to one person." I had never confided my childhood experiences to her or anything about my childhood, mental, or physical health prior so she had a limited picture. I was still in undergrad at the time and I felt ashamed and like I was cursed or something. Then one day, when I was sitting in my GP's office and was informed of what the complication of Crohn's was that was causing a lot of pain and impairment for me at the time, and she said I needed to slow down, I needed to eat meals, I needed to rest...and I broke down in tears and sobbed, "It's not fair...no one could ever believe that one person could have this much shitty luck in life...I'm working SO HARD to break the cycle and live a good life and everywhere I turn, I'm failing. My mom was right when she said that I was shooting too high, maybe I'm just meant to live the life I was born with. I can't do this anymore." My beautiful and amazing GP who became one of the most important women in my life over the years, looked at me and said, "It's not continued bad luck, sweetheart. It is bad luck with having a parent like your mother and everything else is what science says is more likely to happen when a little developing body was trying to cope with as much stress, unpredictability, and pain as you had to. But you survived all that and you'll survive this and you will be able to help so many more people because you can empathize with people who are still 'just' surviving."

I've since read the huge body of evidence and she was right. But none of it is deterministic either. The Turpin kids probably won't grow to their full height and I know many of them have metabolic disorders and the like. But bodies and brains can take huge strides toward healing with the right supports around them and people can still live full and meaningful lives. 

But the parents can rot in hell. It truly is a PSA for everyone to pay attention to any family that purposely isolates themselves to an extreme degree. But with all the healing those kids have done and should have never needed to do, I think they have a chance of living a life that is meaningful to them and in which they can achieve many of their goals. None of us ever get to achieve all our goals.

@faraway, I agree with your despair at the detestable, vile, and nefarious home life and parenting the kids were exposed to and clearly I agree they should never be let out of prison. They should suffer, even if its only a fraction of their kids' suffering. But sometimes I think about people like the Turpins stumbling onto a thread like this one day and losing hope and resigning themselves to things being irreversible. Some things will be, just like many physical and mental disabilities or conditions that a lot of people have. But they seem to be thriving 12 months later so I can only imagine how far they could come. None of this is an attack on you and I agree vehemently with you about hoping for recovery and the sheer evil that could inflict such monstrous acts on their own offspring. Or any person.

[Briefly]

(Possible trigger warning needed):  The discussion regarding the children's physical/mental condition and chances of recovery has reminded me of a book called Dani's Story, by Bernie Lierow, Diane Lierow, and Kay West.  It's about a girl who was basically never even talked to and neglected in the extreme by her mother.  She was eventually removed from her mother's custody, put in foster care and eventually adopted by a loving couple (the Lierow's).  At the end of the book, it sounded like she was doing really well and was at least able to speak a bit but would never be fully "normal."  I looked her up a few weeks ago and she did get better, but not much better and eventually her adoptive parents divorced - mainly due to the stress of trying to help her and they disagreed about what her future should entail, her mother loved her but was unable to care for her anymore.  Her father had custody of her and he finally had to admit that she needed more than he could give her, and would probably never really improve.  She is now part of a group home and her father does visit her regularly - I am not griping about her mother, it's just that the article was an interview with her father.  It is an extremely sad story, and I sincerely hope that the Turpin children will recover and do well, although they may never completely recover from the abuse and neglect they have had to endure at the hands of those two monsters.

[JermajestyDuggar]

48 minutes ago, Briefly said:

(Possible trigger warning needed):  The discussion regarding the children's physical/mental condition and chances of recovery has reminded me of a book called Dani's Story, by Bernie Lierow, Diane Lierow, and Kay West.  It's about a girl who was basically never even talked to and neglected in the extreme by her mother.  She was eventually removed from her mother's custody, put in foster care and eventually adopted by a loving couple (the Lierow's).  At the end of the book, it sounded like she was doing really well and was at least able to speak a bit but would never be fully "normal."  I looked her up a few weeks ago and she did get better, but not much better and eventually her adoptive parents divorced - mainly due to the stress of trying to help her and they disagreed about what her future should entail, her mother loved her but was unable to care for her anymore.  Her father had custody of her and he finally had to admit that she needed more than he could give her, and would probably never really improve.  She is now part of a group home and her father does visit her regularly - I am not griping about her mother, it's just that the article was an interview with her father.  It is an extremely sad story, and I sincerely hope that the Turpin children will recover and do well, although they may never completely recover from the abuse and neglect they have had to endure at the hands of those two monsters.

I’ve read a few stories about children who were never taught language until they were older. Usually due to neglect. I’m not an expert or even that knowledgeable on the topic. But the people who study language and these cases seem to think that even if you are taught language later on, you never fully “catch up.” There will still be some issues present. Of course there aren’t that many cases of this to study so nothing is definite. It’s just what it seems to happen no matter how much people work with the children into adulthood. 

[BullyJBG]

Did they say that they saw their mother as overwhelmed because of so many children? And not asking for help because then they'd take them away? Well, we see what "not asking for help" did. Hopefully these children can bring about better solutions than that for others who may be overwhelmed. Then again, Michelle Duggar was overwhelmed, and didn't REALLY ask for help, just fell asleep during the kids' piano lessons. And the teacher asked what was wrong, and it DIDN'T lead to her kids being taken away.

 Weren't there those who DID have kids taken away throughout history? Especially during the wars? Or those days of workhouses?

 Sigh. More to learn. Mixed on how it should be for the kids visiting their parents in jail, but definitely at first they should NOT be alone with them, ever. Maybe as far as them being able to be in a room with open windows, so the guards can see everything, even if not hear everything. And the underage ones, not without a LOT of security and older siblings there to support them.

  Interesting how David says he's "so proud" of their accomplishments. Does he even realize that they wouldn't have had them without their one daughter jumping out the window, calling 911 on the deactivated phone, and reporting them? Is he really saying he's proud of HER for doing that?

[lilith]

1 hour ago, BullyJBG said:

Did they say that they saw their mother as overwhelmed because of so many children? And not asking for help because then they'd take them away? Well, we see what "not asking for help" did. Hopefully these children can bring about better solutions than that for others who may be overwhelmed. Then again, Michelle Duggar was overwhelmed, and didn't REALLY ask for help, just fell asleep during the kids' piano lessons. And the teacher asked what was wrong, and it DIDN'T lead to her kids being taken away.

 Weren't there those who DID have kids taken away throughout history? Especially during the wars? Or those days of workhouses?

 Sigh. More to learn. Mixed on how it should be for the kids visiting their parents in jail, but definitely at first they should NOT be alone with them, ever. Maybe as far as them being able to be in a room with open windows, so the guards can see everything, even if not hear everything. And the underage ones, not without a LOT of security and older siblings there to support them.

  Interesting how David says he's "so proud" of their accomplishments. Does he even realize that they wouldn't have had them without their one daughter jumping out the window, calling 911 on the deactivated phone, and reporting them? Is he really saying he's proud of HER for doing that?

He’s saying what he thinks the court wants to hear while still refusing to admit culpability.

[Aine]

On 4/29/2019 at 6:54 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

I’ve read a few stories about children who were never taught language until they were older. Usually due to neglect. I’m not an expert or even that knowledgeable on the topic. But the people who study language and these cases seem to think that even if you are taught language later on, you never fully “catch up.” There will still be some issues present. Of course there aren’t that many cases of this to study so nothing is definite. It’s just what it seems to happen no matter how much people work with the children into adulthood. 

There appear to be "sensitive periods" for spoken/signed language, especially proper grammar usage. Let's face it, plenty of us don't use proper grammar most of the time because syntax is hard. It appears on MRIs and fMRIs as brain damage and reduced brain volume uncertain areas. Our brains need stimulation to learn and grow so when that doesn't happen, the brain atrophies in certain areas. Whether it's a sensitive period like animals imprinting on their mother or another animal or whether it is due to neural connections not being made and neurons dying because they are 'not needed' in a deprived situation is tough to prove. We can't knowingly put a child through abuse and torture as researchers (or knowingly ?) so we get our evidence from the unfortunate life of vulnerable children.

The Turpin kids had each other and it seems their mother and father at least talked to them. It doesn't reduce the horror very much. They'll suffer their whole life both physically and mentally. But they are not like Genie or kids who have been alone in a closet or basement or room their entire life. Horrible, but what a blessing they have one another.

[lilith]

The Turpins hadn’t abused the toddler. If that was their normal pattern and they actually cared for each child until the next baby was born it would make a big difference in their potential brain development, especially if the siblings continued to talk to and try to nurture the toddlers/preschoolers after the parents care had ceased.