Turpins 4: 2 Monsters, 13 Victims and Now an Interview!

[Aine]

15 minutes ago, apandaaries said:

Evolutionary psychology makes my spidey senses tingle...things are always a little odd there. Evolutionary biology -- awesome! Evolutionary psychology still seems dominated by Freud-like folks, convinced of their ideas (at times quite imaginative) but with little data to substantiate large claims.

Oops. Forgot to link to some information about strange ways that traits of CEOs and psychopaths overlap. Lots of other interesting, thought-provoking information there, too: http://www.businessinsider.com/ceos-often-have-psychopathic-traits-2017-7

When I worked in that lab, we recruited a lot among CEOs, investment banker/stockbroker-types, and corporate lawyers. Thankfully that lot couldn't resist the advert that the IRB approved after many iterations of 'proving their leadership and persuasion abilities to a committee of experts'. We had many difficulties with the deception in advertising that we had to use and also had ethics committee and try and argue that we needed to tell people about their scores on the psychopathy indexes at debrief, which would not be helpful to anyone but it always took a long time to convince them of that.

We also recruited in prisons when we could get approval from corrections. We also recruited and got higher rates of psychopaths responding than the statistical likelihood from the general population due to the way we advertised and how it appealed to psychopaths.

Evolutionary psychology and science are interwoven these days. The science is much much better than it used to be and continues to improve, like all of psychology, and I think many valid points are made with the evidence possible right now in many cases (though far from all). But I am hardline with psychology as a science and basing decisions on evidence that uses the scientific method and is as strong as we can at this moment. If only bad science exists about something, then I fall into the "we don't know yet" conclusion. The ghost of Freud still haunts the field but we're overwhelmingly moving in the direction that is in line with good methodology and science. My issue is that many evolutionary psychologists, even when they do good science, still make these leaps or assumptions about the behaviors of humans in the past with little evidence. I think we can just call it all 'psychology' and still argue that many behaviors have evolutionary function today even though they're 'odd'.

[EmCatlyn]

8 hours ago, seattlechic said:

OMG listening to LAHenna's videos. Aside her editorial commentary, which I don't care much for, she is reporting quite well, and I am grateful to have "eyes and ears" in the courtroom.

 

I hope the victims are getting the help and care they need, both physical and emotional. Have they been to testify in court at all?

Yeah, LaHenna’s reports were interesting.  

Regarding the victims, they have not had to testify. This was just a preliminary hearing to find out if the charges were sufficient to go to trial. I believe the next court date is the first week of August.  

The DA has said that some of the young people will testify. But this may not be until next year, since it may take that long for the trial to get under way.

There has been no new information about the victims except that the older ones went to a hearing about their guardianship.  It seems to have been routine.  Also, in court they said that all the kids have gained weight and are healthier, though some face ongoing problems.

The older ones (the ones over 18) are living in an undisclosed location “ in the country” and getting remedial education, physical therapy, ongoing medical treatment and practical living instruction in addition to psychological therapy.   We know even less about the younger ones.  The next-to-youngest was physically and psychologically one of the most damaged.  She and the youngest were placed in the same foster care, the last we heard.  The other minors, including J-8, were in another foster home. This includes the only boy who is a minor.  

J-8 turns 18 in November, I believe.    In the meantime, we know that she has been getting speech therapy and education.

I gather that they are all relieved to be out of their parents’ grip.  They are therefore probably happier and better than they ever were before. 

[EmCatlyn]

21 hours ago, Gobsmacked said:

I worked with a person described by Palimpsest for a miserable 9 months over 2 decades ago. Even now I have shivers when I think of that time. The first time I met her and shook hands the hairs on my neck stood up and my stomach turned. I truly believe I touched evil that day.  The week after she left my normal 'both feet firmly planted' boss mentioned that he felt as though a Gremlin had left the room. 

Since I stirred up the discussion about psychopath, sociopaths and evil yesterday, with my casual comment that no one wakes up in the morning deliberately planning to do “evil” for fun, I have been uncertain about entering this strand of the discussion (which I generally find fascinating) or just stopping w my explanation that while I wasn’t talking about psychopaths (or whatever you call people incapable of developing a “moral sense”) my generalization applied to them too (tho maybe in a different way) because only with a “moral sense” can we recognize “evil.”  

Basically, I want to make clear that there is a difference between our actions, how others judge our actions, and how we ourselves judge our actions.   I hope I got that across because it is important in cases like the Turpins’.

They did evil — perhaps the worst evil one can imagine since they betrayed the most fundamental duty, to protect our young, and instead brutalized and tortured them.  But it appears that they deluded themselves that what they were doing was really okay, even if “the law” and public opinion would condemn them.  Maybe they lack a true “moral sense,” but they also seemed to want approval and to see themselves as good.  In my study of historical figures whom most people today would classify as “psychopaths” (think Hitler and Caligula), it appears that though they were certainly “evil,” they thought of themselves as doing what was “right” given their definition of “right.”  Also, these people seem to have cared a lot about how others viewed them.

So I guess I am more interested in that aspect of “doers of evil” than the question of why they become that way. (I think the theory that there is both a genetic predisposition and an environmental factor is probably on target. And I find the discussion fascinating... But I don’t think it helps us deal with the adult psychopath.). 

It is the way that people can do “evil” and not recognize it as evil, and the way in which a person who is “evil” is often invested in seeing him/herself as “good” that fascinates me right now.

By the way, I recently had to work under a narcissist with obvious sociopathic/pychopathic traits. Like a president we all know about, she was insatiable for admiration, unable to recognize why people might not want to go along with her Great Ideas, preoccupied with loyalty towards herself, ready to sell others down the river to “erase” her mistakes, and obsessed with “optics.” She drove two colleagues to early retirement and fired three others. She drove me and another colleague (that I know of) to psychotherapy. She rewarded two incompetents because they flattered her.  The incompetents made life hard for everyone.  The good news is she is gone after 4 years and she did not starve or beat anyone that I know of.

There are obviously degrees within all this. But the consistent thread for me is the way people think they are doing good even in cases where there is clear suffering and harm as a result.

 

[ven]

La henna has an instagram profile ( hennaup) where she relayed the last hearing in court in much more detail ( some might say a tad to much detail)  it is way more detailed then what u can read on twitter. It is private but she approves quickly * think before u enter if u really want to know ALL details*

 

[Palimpsest]

2 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

There are obviously degrees within all this. But the consistent thread for me is the way people think they are doing good even in cases where there is clear suffering and harm as a result.

I'm sorry if you felt jumped on.  That was not my intent.  Well, there are an awful lot of Fundies (and others) that fit your profile of "doing good" who leave enormous harm in their wake.

But time will tell if that profile fits the Turpins.  I doubt that it does. 

Many thanks to @apandaaries for the articles she posted.  And I am profoundly grateful to @Aine for her descriptions of her hands on experience of research in this area.

I'm in no way an expert at all of this.  I remember struggling to define when and why some people sent chills up my spine  when working in APS.

I also live to learn.  And science-based research is where we need to be.  Again, thank you @Aine for describing the research you were involved with so clearly.

18 hours ago, Aine said:

My issue is that many evolutionary psychologists, even when they do good science, still make these leaps or assumptions about the behaviors of humans in the past with little evidence. I think we can just call it all 'psychology' and still argue that many behaviors have evolutionary function today even though they're 'odd'.

Oh, me too.   I really want good science not leaps of assumptions.

18 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Yeah, LaHenna’s reports were interesting.  

Regarding the victims, they have not had to testify. This was just a preliminary hearing to find out if the charges were sufficient to go to trial. I believe the next court date is the first week of August.  

The DA has said that some of the young people will testify. But this may not be until next year, since it may take that long for the trial to get under way.

There has been no new information about the victims except that the older ones went to a hearing about their guardianship.  It seems to have been routine.  Also, in court they said that all the kids have gained weight and are healthier, though some face ongoing problems.

The older ones (the ones over 18) are living in an undisclosed location “ in the country” and getting remedial education, physical therapy, ongoing medical treatment and practical living instruction in addition to psychological therapy.   We know even less about the younger ones.  The next-to-youngest was physically and psychologically one of the most damaged.  She and the youngest were placed in the same foster care, the last we heard.  The other minors, including J-8, were in another foster home. This includes the only boy who is a minor.  

J-8 turns 18 in November, I believe.    In the meantime, we know that she has been getting speech therapy and education.

I gather that they are all relieved to be out of their parents’ grip.  They are therefore probably happier and better than they ever were before. 

Did you get all this detail from LaHenna?   If not, where? 

In your opinion, is LaHenna reliable?   You have been following the Turpin case more closely than I.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[Briefly]

21 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Sorry, I think I have not explained myself clearly.  I wasn’t saying that people don’t do evil things “for fun.”  I was saying that when they do “evil” they don’t see it as “evil.”  The sociopath/psychopath that enjoys doing things that we call “evil” doesn’t have a moral compass (not even a distorted one) so he or she isn’t thinking of what s/he does as evil, even if s/he knows that others would call it evil.

The idea of “evil” requires moral awareness.  And people without moral awareness can do evil things, and even be what we could genuinely call “evil,” but they wouldn’t see themselves as evil.  They might know that they are doing “evil” things, and they might define themselves as “evil,” in some cases, but their moral emptiness keeps them from understanding the concept except, perhaps, as a joke.

Returning to the Turpins, clearly they have done evil and one could say that they are evil.   But I don’t think they saw themselves as evil.  They came from a background of a lot fundie anxiety about sin and so forth. They were both trained to hypocrisy and denial of inconvenient truths.  They would tell themselves that they were not doing anything wrong when they beat, starved and caged the kids.  They would not tell themselves, “Gee, I am bored, so I will go spank my kid,” even if that was what was going on.  They would, instead, find something the kid did wrong and tell themselves (as well as the kid) that the kid deserved punishment.  Yes, that was evil.  My point is that they carefully avoided thinking of themselves and their actions as evil.

As I said to @Palimpsest I may have expressed myself badly if I was understood to be saying that people aren’t evil or don’t do what others consider “evil” things on purpose.  I was talking about how most people who do evil are not thinking of themselves or their actions as evil.

In any case, we can agree to disagree.  Sorry to hear you have had “very specific experience” with the subject of evil.

 

OK, I see what you mean now.  It does make sense, now that you have clarified.  Thanks.

[EmCatlyn]

6 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

I'm sorry if you felt jumped on.  That was not my intent.   ...  <snipped>

I'm in no way an expert at all of this.  I remember struggling to define when and why some people sent chills up my spine  when working in APS.

 ....       <snipped>  ...

 

Did you get all this detail from LaHenna?   If not, where? 

In your opinion, is LaHenna reliable?   You have been following the Turpin case more closely than I.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

No worries, I didn’t feel jumped on.  I was just annoyed with myself that I had anot been clearer.  I don’t know enough about psychopathology to be able to discuss the truly amoral personality.  It is a fascinating subject.  My focus in this case is more on how the Turpin parents may have rationalized the evil they were doing.  I didn’t mean to suggest that there is no such thing as an “evil” person or that everyone has the desire to avoid being “evil.” And I could see why I might be misunderstood, which bothered me. Hopefully my idea about not seeing oneself as evil is clearer now.

As for LaHenna, her report based on notes from attending the hearing pretty much jibed with accounts by reporters who tweeted about what was going on. She tends to over-dramatize, sometimes in a useful way (for one video she showed a dog cage like the one used on the Turpin kids) sometimes not (rapping on a table to suggest the beatings experienced by the kids senationalized without adding information).  

In addition to LaHenna’s account I have seen tweets and/or notes from JeremyChen, Rob McMillan, Nancy Dillon, and, Kris Ancarlo all newspaper reporters. The information I posted came from at least two different sources and sometimes a published article.

If I have some spare time, I want to collate the different accounts, in part because the published news doesn’t always make it clear when their report is talking about the same child or a different child. (For example, they will say, “another sibling reported” when if you look at the accounts directly from court it has to be the same sibling.)

I don’t know why I have been so touched by this case.  Maybe it is that the two oldest are about the same ages as my kids. To think of what these kids were going through as mine were leading more-or-less normal lives... and then all the other children being born into that growing insanity! 

 

 

[LovelyLuna]

Not any new information that I could tell, but this is a good summery of the whole saga.  The two of the mothers siblings talk about wanting to adopt some of the kids.  

 

Edited August 18, 2018 by LovelyLuna
riffles

[Beermeet]

I looked at hannaup on IG.  I don't think it's right what she did.  She snuck in as press when only press was allowed in.  And, the posting of facts when it wasn't her's to release made me a bit sick.  Idk.  Not cool, imo.  

[wild little fox]

Turpin Parents Back in Court Today

[Letgo]

On ‎7‎/‎7‎/‎2018 at 11:23 PM, EmCatlyn said:

 how the Turpin parents may have rationalized the evil they were doing.  

 

This is what mystifies me. HOW can anyone manage to rationalize the treatment of those children? Chaining them, starving them, beatings, no bathing, lack of education, etc.  And for me the biggest mystery is how the parents found each other. I have not read the entire thread so I don't know if this has been mentioned. How does anyone with these inclinations find a like-minded partner? Horrific child abuse isn't exactly something one would discuss on a date. How do individuals devolve into this type of behavior together? Most of us would run if our spouse suggested the sick things done to these children. Yet these people found each other and neither did anything to stop the other. How does this happen?

[LilMissMetaphor]

4 hours ago, Letgo said:

This is what mystifies me. HOW can anyone manage to rationalize the treatment of those children? Chaining them, starving them, beatings, no bathing, lack of education, etc.  And for me the biggest mystery is how the parents found each other. I have not read the entire thread so I don't know if this has been mentioned. How does anyone with these inclinations find a like-minded partner? Horrific child abuse isn't exactly something one would discuss on a date. How do individuals devolve into this type of behavior together? Most of us would run if our spouse suggested the sick things done to these children. Yet these people found each other and neither did anything to stop the other. How does this happen?

Codependency, enabling, covering up, etc.  They didn't meet and start out deciding to have kids and abuse them.  It's a pattern that over time becomes far more deeply entrenched, like ruts on a path...Mental illness often sneaks up on a person, on couples, on families.  It would have started as neglect, then the need for control would have developed into punishment, abuse, imprisonment, and so on.  

[xlurker]

Seems as if a trial date has been set to begin September 3, 2019 and that the house has been sold at auction--where is that money from the sale going to go?

Edited January 5, 2019 by xlurker

[Letgo]

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 3:32 PM, xlurker said:

Seems as if a trial date has been set to begin September 3, 2019 and that the house has been sold at auction--where is that money from the sale going to go?

I would hope any money could go to the children. But it will probably go to the parents' lawyers. Did the parents actually own it or were they renting?

[MarblesMom]

I see they pled guilty today.   https://ktla.com/2019/02/22/turpin-case-perris-parents-accused-of-torturing-starving-their-12-children-to-appear-in-court/?fbclid=IwAR1mxmIn5tE66c4QqtGPEzQ8FaZ99dRho-0kx9--5nQh4AuVZPD-CZGH_Dc

[socalrules]

On 1/17/2019 at 7:38 AM, Letgo said:

I would hope any money could go to the children. But it will probably go to the parents' lawyers. Did the parents actually own it or were they renting?

The house may have been foreclosed on and went to auction by the bank so they wouldn’t get any money.

I am actually surprised they plead guilty. I guess their attorneys were convincing at explaining the future was bleak. I thought these two would either plead mental illness, the wife would says she was an abused spouse or they would be arrogant enough to go to trial believing they were completely in the right. I used to be addicted to true crime books but haven’t bought one in awhile. If they write one on this story, I am definitely buying it because I would love in depth details of what precipitated them going so far off the rails. I can’t wrap my head around what could make anyone think doing this to their children was a good idea and I have read some horrific things people do to others. 

Edited February 22, 2019 by socalrules

[Galbin]

Good. I see Louise is crying now that she knows she will probably spend the rest of her life in prison. Well, her kids were in prison, so that's karmic justice right there. I am so glad to read the kids are healing and gaining strength.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-6735061/California-parents-13-plead-guilty-torture-abuse.html

 

[libgirl2]

43 minutes ago, socalrules said:

The house may have been foreclosed on and went to auction by the bank so they wouldn’t get any money.

I am actually surprised they plead guilty. I guess their attorneys were convincing at explaining the future was bleak. I thought these two would either plead mental illness, the wife would says she was an abused spouse or they would be arrogant enough to go to trial believing they were completely in the right. I used to be addicted to true crime books but haven’t bought one in awhile. If they write one on this story, I am definitely buying it because I would love in depth details of what precipitated them going so far off the rails. I can’t wrap my head around what could make anyone think doing this to their children was a good idea and I have read some horrific things people do to others. 

I haven't read one in ages, but this is one I would read too. 

[smittykins]

I wonder if they will make the ID channel someday.

[Pecansforeveryone]

They did a How It Really Happened with Hill Harper on Ted Bundy, truly a monster that law enforcement didn't take seriously. If they ever did one on the Turpins, i would watch it. 

[Terrie]

The family who imprisoned and starved their 13 children pled guilty. Looks like the plan is for them to be sentenced to life in prison, which means they won't be eligible for parole for 25 years. Chances are, they will die in prison. Good.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/california-parents-13-plead-guilty-torture-abuse-61254833

[Jezzable]

 

 

For God's sake, I hope they do something to this evil man's hair in prison!

[PlentyOfJesusFishInTheSea]

I'm late to the psychology party but I do think the replication crisis is real. I'm in earth sci and both look at complex systems with lots of variability so I sympathize. But I think psych is also on the hook for a lot of dumb ideas over the years that fit the narrative of the times. I have seen some truly terrible misuses of stats (and many good uses) over the years!

I can't seem to link it, but the Atlantic article from Nov 2018, "Psychology's replication problem is running out of excuses" is pretty relevant.

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

52 minutes ago, Jezzable said:

For God's sake, I hope they do something to this evil man's hair in prison!

Shaving his head would be a good start.

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

Statistics show most abusers are less likely to abuse after getting shot.

just sayin......