Lina's back!!!!

[MaroonMandy]

As a Christian I think she's being ridiculous as well - it's like she thinks Christianity isn't special enough for her on its own merits, and the fact that she wants to claim Jesus while denying that she's a Christian makes me wish that she would step on a lego.

:lol: This will now be what I wish upon all of my enemies. Just thinking about it makes me cringe.

[Guest Anonymous]

:lol: This will now be what I wish upon all of my enemies. Just thinking about it makes me cringe.

I can't take credit for it, though I wish I was that clever. It's a common form of ill-wishing on another forum I frequent.

[doe]

Lina would love this woman! She had her mikveh in the ocean!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jessica-l ... nk3|101650

[Guest Anonymous]

Lina must be putting in some overtime at the local Starbucks today. I'm guessin' she still doesn't have internet at home. I hope her hubbymans supply of clean undies is being taken care of while she's addressing her 'public'.

[Aurora]

Christianity is like the straight white guy of religions

I know this is kinda serious but this expression is hilarious too :D

[Kate]

Here's a possably stupid question, but is there some sort of Jewish central registry or something that would identify who the real Jews are in the first place?

I understand T&L's blog and subsequent notoriety might get them recognized if they were to walk into an Orthodox Temple, but in general terms, what's to stop someone who learns a lot about it from "passing" as a Jew? (besides truthfulness, honor, respect, and such, of course)

It looks to me like Lina really craves rules and a checklist of tasks that make her good, that she's not gotten enough out of regular Christianity. And of course the prebuilt identity as something pretty different and more exotic than her usual biblebelt neighbors, and of course different from her actual self. I feel sad for her for that.

[pomology]

I said I don't care once she explained her position ;)

Inversely christians could be outraged that she believes in Jesus and does not to call herself a Christian. I just feel like Judaism is being put on this special scale when we've had plenty of other arguments about no true scots...

I won't say anything else, because obviously the Jewish posters are very upset about that and maybe i'm just not understanding this issue because I'm not Jewish.

I don't think Judaism is special. Christians just seem to have a bigger fetish for Judaism than they do for other belief systems.

Say there was a person who believed that Jesus was God and the son of God, but also believed that they were Muslim. This is in direct contradiction to the Quran, by the way. And say the person blogged about how they were such good Muslims who keep the five pillars of Islam (except that they altar the shahadah to say, "There is no god, but God also known as Jesus and Mohammad is the prophet of God") and pray five times a day and wear a hijab and study shariah extensively. And peppered their writings with things like "alhamdullilah" "inshallah" "mashalla" "peace be upon him" etc. And then started blogging about how they were going to go on the hajj, because they are Muslims and are even more Muslims than other Muslims despite their belief that Jesus is God and the son of God, not just the Messiah as Muslims believe. And repeatedly insisted that it was okay for Jesus is God believers to calls themselves Muslim and make the hajj despite all evidence to the contrary.

That would be just as offensive as what Lina is doing, in my opinion.

[pomology]

Here's a possably stupid question, but is there some sort of Jewish central registry or something that would identify who the real Jews are in the first place?

I understand T&L's blog and subsequent notoriety might get them recognized if they were to walk into an Orthodox Temple, but in general terms, what's to stop someone who learns a lot about it from "passing" as a Jew? (besides truthfulness, honor, respect, and such, of course)

It looks to me like Lina really craves rules and a checklist of tasks that make her good, that she's not gotten enough out of regular Christianity. And of course the prebuilt identity as something pretty different and more exotic than her usual biblebelt neighbors, and of course different from her actual self. I feel sad for her for that.

Well, Lina and TT are definitely not knowledgable enough to walk in and pretend to be Jews. But honestly as far as I know there isn't a lot to confirm it. If you are getting married you're Rabbi might as for proof that you are Jewish (which you might be hard-pressed to find if you are not). But I walked into my cousin's shul this summer and was offered an aliyah (a blessing at the Torah). As far as they knew, I could have not been Jewish. But it would have been an incredibly offensive, douchey, dishonest thing for me to do if I wasn't Jewish, like it would be for me to take the Eucharist in a Catholic Church as Jew.

[FaustianSlip]

Kate, there are some in the far-right corners of the Orthodox would who would probably love it if theree were such a thing. That's another part of my problem with Lina. The subject of conversion is one of really deep contention in the Jewish community right now. This is indedpendent of any issues with Messianic types lying their way in. There is a lot of controversy over who's "really" Jewish, whose conversions are "valid," et cetera. All of this goes on both between denominations and within Orthdoxy, who tend to wand to declare themselves the sole arbiters of Jewishness. They aren't, of course, particularly out in the Diaspora. There are some good articles about the issues on Kochava's blog, but the crux of it is that some Jewish authorities don't want to accept as valid conversions done by any authorities more liberal than they are. Thus, you get Orthodox rabbis who won't accept Conservative conversiond, Haredi rabbis who won't accept Modern Orthodox conversions, and on and on. It's ridiculous, really, and a lot of totally sincere people get caught in the middle, often through no fault of their own.

Personally, my conversion was performed by a Conservative rabbi and beit din. I had a mikvah (like, an actual one, not in a swimming pool), renounced any other religions and took on as binding the 613 mitzvot. My rabbi and beit din are, so far as I'm aware, shomer Shabbos and so on. So as far as I'm concerned, my conversion was valid. Orthodox rabbis, however, would argue that because I was not observant to Orthodox standards upon conversion, the conversion doesn't "count." I get their reasoning, but I think they exceed the requirements for conversion spelled out in Torah and halacha, which only include beit din, mikvah, circumcision if you're a guy and acceptance of the mitzvot. Acceptance, not observance. There are various sages that actually say that converts aren't required to be fully Orthodox/observant prior to conversion, and there are (more liberal) Orthodox rabbis who agree. In practice, this stuff generally becomes an issue if someone wants to marry into the Orthodox community, send their kids to an Orthodox school or have various lifecycle events performed in Israel, where they're controlled by an (increasingly Haredi) Orthodox rabbinate (one reason amongst many why I have no plans to immigrate to Israel).

All of that said, while I do not go around with a sign saying, "Conservative convert" or feel any obligation to discuss my status as a convert with random people that I meet, were I to visit an Orthodox synagogue and be offered, say, some kind of ritual honor (which I wouldn't, since I'm female, but...), or be counted in a minyan, I would immediately inform them of my status and let them make their own decisions. I don't agree with their position, but if I'm in their playground, it's simple respect to play by their rules. Lina seems to have no conception of this, which is one of the reasons she makes me so frustrated and angry.

[emmiedahl]

It's really not that complicated: if you're Jewish and practicing mainstream Judaism, you don't believe that the Messiah has shown up yet, simply because we can look in a newspaper or look out the window and see that there is not world peace, which is one of the things the Messiah is supposed to bring. Thus, Jesus isn't the Messiah, Bar Kochba wasn't the Messiah, Shabbatai Tzvi wasn't the Messiah and the Lubavitcher Rebbe wasn't, either. It would be lovely to have a Messianic Age and have everyone be happy and at peace and have their needs met, but I think we can all agree that that is not currently the case.

Another thing to add is that the Messiah is not supposed to be God, or a part of God, or one third of God, or whatever. If you believe the Christ is the Messiah and we just somehow are missing all the peace and harmony, and you find a Rabbi who agrees, you still would be *not Jew* based on the belief that the Messiah is God.

Jesus did not meet the requirements for a Messiah. Not the most basic requirements. So if you believe he is the Messiah, then you are saying you know more than the Torah, more than all the sages and wise men who have debated the nature of God and the Messiah for millennia now. I'm fine with the fact that Christianity disagrees, but this respect for tradition and Torah is at the very heart of Judaism. My mother is a Jew, so was her mother, and so on, but that respect and love is what really makes me Jewish.

Another thing: Jews have historically been an oppressed people. Sometimes we have had to circle wagons and help each other. I get the feeling that when/if the going got tough, Lina and TT would find a new religion. Look how quickly she can change her beliefs to suit her desires. The converts I know will be hidden in the attic with me, God forbid, because they are Jewish.

[Kate]

Thanks, pomology and FaustianSlip--interesting to know, and while in general terms I don't especially like the idea of a reason to bicker over whose the strictest so they can make the rules (sounds way too much like the whole Fundie one-up game) it's probably too bad in a case like this. Sigh.

Edited because it was quite snarky which I'm generally ok with, but strangely feels kind of too much to me now that L&T have deigned to fess up. Weird, I know.

[liltwinstar]

So, dumb question - but do Jews believe that non-Jews will go to hell, or be punished in the afterlife in some way for *not* being Jewish?

Seems to me that if there is no afterlife punishment for not being a Jew, and if one has no intention of moving to Israel or being part of a larger Jewish community, there isn't much point in any sort of conversion to Judiasm, right?

It also seems to me that a lot of the Jewish customs/traditions/rituals sound kind of weird when taken out of context. As a non-Jew, I read the stuff about pre-tearing the toilet paper, for example, and my first thought is "how bizarre" - BUT, I also recognize that when taken as part of the whole package, practiced in a community with other believers, and under the guidance of community leaders who are steeped in the traditions of their faith, those things that seem "bizarre" to me as an outsider would make sense to practitioners and provide some spiritual benefit.

I don't think I'd get the same spiritual benefit if I spent Friday morning tearing up my tp for the weekend, you know? Seems that Judaism (like many religions, really) can't be practiced in a vacuum and just from reading about the rituals of that faith. You *need* the community of others in order for it to all work together the way it's supposed to. So just reading books and practices won't provide that full experience.

[emmiedahl]

No, there is no punishment for being a non-Jew, being a nonobservant Jew, etc. From what I have been told, you join because you feel Jewish inside, like a transgendered person might feel they are a different gender, and you want the recognition and support of the Jewish community.

As a 'lone Jew' in my area, I can say that it is much easier in a community of likeminded people. Jewish traditions are weird from the outside. I won't lie about that. I don't observe all of them, I don't think most Jews do.

I have had it really easy. I was not raised religious, but my mother is Jewish so I was minimally exposed. For a while I went to a Catholic church with my husband. When I decided to go back to Judaism, it was really easy because I am Jewish by definition already. People who don't have the bloodline have a really hard time of it. The community does not make it pleasant or easy. People like Lina are the reason we must be so suspicious and demanding. If not for fake converts, we could be less afraid that potential converts have bad motives or don't realize what they are getting into.

[pomology]

Kate, there are some in the far-right corners of the Orthodox would who would probably love it if theree were such a thing.

Actually, I would contend that this is not true. I don't think many Jews are too keen on a centralized listing of all Jews.

[formergothardite]

I think Lina is lying about knowing all these Yeshua following Orthodox Jews. If she is not then she shouldn't be bragging about all the people she knows who have no issue lying. Because there is no way that they were able to admit to be a follower of Jesus and still get converted.

[pomology]

So, dumb question - but do Jews believe that non-Jews will go to hell, or be punished in the afterlife in some way for *not* being Jewish?

Seems to me that if there is no afterlife punishment for not being a Jew, and if one has no intention of moving to Israel or being part of a larger Jewish community, there isn't much point in any sort of conversion to Judiasm, right?

It also seems to me that a lot of the Jewish customs/traditions/rituals sound kind of weird when taken out of context. As a non-Jew, I read the stuff about pre-tearing the toilet paper, for example, and my first thought is "how bizarre" - BUT, I also recognize that when taken as part of the whole package, practiced in a community with other believers, and under the guidance of community leaders who are steeped in the traditions of their faith, those things that seem "bizarre" to me as an outsider would make sense to practitioners and provide some spiritual benefit.

I don't think I'd get the same spiritual benefit if I spent Friday morning tearing up my tp for the weekend, you know? Seems that Judaism (like many religions, really) can't be practiced in a vacuum and just from reading about the rituals of that faith. You *need* the community of others in order for it to all work together the way it's supposed to. So just reading books and practices won't provide that full experience.

No, Jews believe that righteous gentiles will have the same lot in the world to come as observant Jews.

Basically, for non-Jews to to be rewarded in the world to come they need to follow the Seven Laws of Noah, which are (according to Wikipedia, but I'm pretty sure it is correct):

- Prohibition of Idolatry

- Prohibition of Murder

- Prohibition of Theft

- Prohibition of Sexual immorality

- Prohibition of Blasphemy

- Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive

- Establishment of courts of law

A lot of people, particularly most monotheists, do follow these laws (of course, I'm not sure how sexual immorality is actually defined, my Jewish history professor said it applied to things like rape and incest, but I couldn't help but wonder if it is traditionally also supposed to apply to homosexuality etc.)

Jews, to get the same reward in the world to come, need to follow all 613 mitzvot.

As I wrote in my Jewish history notes "Chosenness = do God's every bidding, bitches; non-chose people = God's cool with you as long as you follow some important rules"

Yep, there is really no reason to convert to Judaism if you don't want to be part of the Jewish community. Converting is done to be one with the community, as would be shown by the patron saint of conversion (if we Jews had such things as patron saints, which we don't) Ruth, who converted because she wanted to be part of her mother-in-law Naomi's community.

You aren't the only one who thinks pre-ripping toilet paper is bizarre. I personally think that a lot of Orthodox practices are bizarre, which is why I would never be Orthodox. :lol: But if you live in a community of people doing those things, it is a lot less weird.

[pomology]

I think Lina is lying about knowing all these Yeshua following Orthodox Jews. If she is not then she shouldn't be bragging about all the people she knows who have no issue lying. Because there is no way that they were able to admit to be a follower of Jesus and still get converted.

Very well said.

I think that Lina, for all her bragging about righteousness, is actually a really lousy human being with low moral character. Yes, I'm a judgmental bitch, but at least I'm willing to admit it.

[emmiedahl]

I thought she meant that there are real Orthodox Jews who believe in Jesus as the Messiah. I think that there are (I know one) but it is very rare and those people are seen as rejects in the Jewish community.

[onlyorganic]

If she wants to identify herself with this community and be more serious about respecting all the requirements (and the hassle of it) more than other Jew might even do, then I have no pb with it.

What offends me is that she wants to be a part of a community that does NOT embrace Jesus as the Messiah, yet she wants to bring her belief in Jesus as the Messiah and mesh it with the Orthodox lifestyle. She wants that title as an "Orthodox Jew". These are people who have died for their religion. These are people with very clear beliefs. You can't bring the Jesus-factor in just because you feel like it. It isn't an "Oh, and by the way...". It contradicts Orthodox Judaism completely! It's apples and oranges AND it's a sensitive issue. A very sensitive one. You can't have it both ways. Now, she could say that "I am Lina and I am interested in the Orthodox lifestyle. I have studied the history and live by Torah commandments, but I believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Say what you like, I don't label myself. My husband and I follow strict Orthodox rules while still believing Jesus was the Son of God." But that is NOT what she's doing. What she's doing is saying that she IS Orthodox, don't label her Messianic or a "Jew for Jesus". She wants the Orthodox label. What she would have done to help herself out of the heap of displeasure from others is simply acknowledge she lives by Orthodox rules BUT admit that she understands that her belief in Jesus does not mesh with traditional Orthodox Judaism. Instead, she's adamant that she can be an Orthodox Jew and still love Jesus as the Messiah.

Not to keep saying it, but it's offensive.

*edited for riffles

[Witsec1]

Do we know for a fact that AJ and LIna are affiliated with Beit Shalom? I was going through some of her older entries last night and I think I saw one where she mentions meeting with a "rabbi" in his home. I wondered if it was AJ's boss at the e-book place.

[pomology]

Many christians have a hard time seeing Yeshua as an Orthodox Jew, but that is only due to a lack of knowledge in the religion of Judaism.

Um, sorry Lina, Jesus wasn't an Orthodox Jew. Especially as Orthodoxy is really a 18th or 19th century movement that arose directly in contradiction to the enlightenment. Sure Jews were traditional and religious before that time, but they were not actively traditional in defiance and contradiction to other options before that.

Orthodoxy as practiced today doesn't even remotely resemble what Jesus would have done.

[emmiedahl]

From what I have read, Jesus was an observant Jew. Lina does not know the history of Judaism, so she would not be familiar with why Jesus could not have been Orthodox.

Since she is probs watching this thread closely, she will now know. Anyone else have a Jewish trivia fact to throw out? :)

[lizzy]

A comment and a question...

I would like to thank the Jews on this board for their wealth of information and patience in explaining the context of Lina's actions. I grew up in Kansas, so not exactly a hot bed of Judaism, so I've learned more about this religion in the last week than I've learned in a lifetime. So...thanks.

My question is directed at pomology regarding the Laws of Noah. If there are prohibitions against Blasphemy and Idoloatry, does that mean Christians necessarily do not experience reward in the afterlife? After all, by their definition since Jesus is not the Messiah, is belief and worship of him and proclamation of his divinity, is that not idolatry and blasphemy? Just curious....

[FaustianSlip]

I'm not Pomology, but I'll take a crack at this one. Christianity is kind of in a weird place, theologically speaking, when looked at through the lens of Jewish spirituality. The rabbis did actually discuss whether Christianity is a violation of the Noachide Laws/prohibition of polytheism, and the conclusion they drew is that for people who are born and raised Christian, it is not, because they believe that they worship one god, not three. The attitude they seem to take is, "Well, it makes no sense to us, but they believe it, and most wouldn't know any different, so G-d isn't going to punish them for that." However, a Jewish person who decides to chuck Judaism and become a Christian is in violation and would be considereed a heretic, an idolater, et cetera, the idea being that they've been taught the "truth" and are knowingly ignoring it. Whether the rabbis adoped the position they did regarding Christians out of a sense of survival and political expediency, I'll leave up to the reader.

What Lina is doing would be like me saying, "You know, I just love the Amish lifestyle. I think I'm going to be all Amish up in here and start dressing plain, making shoo-fly pie and driving a buggy. I'm, like, totally Amish! Except I love TV, and my cell phone. So I'm going to keep on using those. But I still get to be Amish, right." Um, no.

And Pomology, with regard to a central listin of Jews, historically (and when tlking about the majority of Jews now), I'd agree, for obvious reasons, but especially with the whole issue of "Who is a Jew?" in Israel, I think that if some of the Israeli Rabbinate thought they could get away with it, they would totally support some kind of official registration that would force people to "prove" their Jewish pedigree once and for all. They practically already do, if you feel like getting married or buried or anything like that in Israel.

I also don't think much of Lina's moral character at this point. If she knows people who converted with actual, Orthodox batei din, they only managed it by lying their fool asses off, and who brags like that about keeping company with a bunch of liars and frauds? No one I'd want to hang out with.

[formergothardite]

I thought she meant that there are real Orthodox Jews who believe in Jesus as the Messiah. I think that there are (I know one) but it is very rare and those people are seen as rejects in the Jewish community.

She wrote :

My husband and I are acquainted with many believers in Yeshua who have successfully undergone Orthodox conversion with a non-Messianic beit din.

To me that seems to say that they were believers in Jesus who somehow managed an Orthodix conversion, but I guess it could mean that they were converted first and then found the Jesus love. But I still think she is making it all up.