Lina's back!!!!

[ThisOlGirl]

On a totally shallow, superficial level, Lina could have done way better than Taliban Tony. Lina's gorgeous--I think she looks like Kourtney Kardashian(and even though I can't stand any of the Kardashians, I still think Kourtney is the best looking one by far). Come to think of it Lina and TT are a lot like Kourtney and her man, in that Lina/Kourtney are both super pretty, and TT/Scott are both super douchey.

[pomology]

Have you seen Crazy Jewish Convert's reply to Lina's newest post? Very good.

Yep, the lines I quoted upthread and annotated with "I think I am in love with Kochava" come from her reply to Lina's newest post. I am majorly impressed.

[emmiedahl]

So, is this TT's website? I found it while googling her to see if any other Jewish bloggers had weighed in. http://www.anti-semitism.net/judaism/a- ... -intro.php In the post I linked to, the author says he guest-blogged on Lina's blog and the link led to a post by TT.

[Beeks]

Yep, the lines I quoted upthread and annotated with "I think I am in love with Kochava" come from her reply to Lina's newest post. I am majorly impressed.

Oops sorry I missed your post! She really is great.

[pomology]

Oops sorry I missed your post! She really is great.

No prob. It's easy to miss posts and I didn't indicate it was from Crazy Jewish Convert's newest reply to Lina. :D

[pomology]

So, is this TT's website? I found it while googling her to see if any other Jewish bloggers had weighed in. http://www.anti-semitism.net/judaism/a- ... -intro.php In the post I linked to, the author says he guest-blogged on Lina's blog and the link led to a post by TT.

There is no way in hell that that is TT's website. But I'm not sure how his post got there.

[emmiedahl]

That is what I was thinking too, but there are glaring grammatical errors, a total lack of understanding of design, and some Messianic stuff too so :?: :?:

[Witsec1]

So, is this TT's website? I found it while googling her to see if any other Jewish bloggers had weighed in. http://www.anti-semitism.net/judaism/a- ... -intro.php In the post I linked to, the author says he guest-blogged on Lina's blog and the link led to a post by TT.

No, I think it is some kind of news aggregator blog, possibly an automated thingy that scrapes content off websites.

[Guest Anonymous]

So, is this TT's website? I found it while googling her to see if any other Jewish bloggers had weighed in. http://www.anti-semitism.net/judaism/a- ... -intro.php In the post I linked to, the author says he guest-blogged on Lina's blog and the link led to a post by TT.

Is it run exclusively by fake Jews? Or is there authentic Jewish content as well? I'm poking around and there's thousands of articles, and the first one I've clicked is a doozey. :shock:

[pomology]

So I'm checking out the "synagogue" attended by Taliban Tony and Mrs. Taliban Tony.

One of their Frequently Asked Questions is "Are Messianic Jews simply Christians masquerading as Jews?"

In the answer, they say, "But we view ourselves as still part of the Jewish world, albeit another branch, comparable to the Conservative or Reformed movements."

First of all, they must be devotees of Groucho Marx (which, let's be honest, is very fitting for faux-Jews) because they refuse to be members of any club that will have them. You can't just consider yourself "part of the Jewish world". And what they are is NOT comparable to Conservative or Reform Judaism, because Conservative and Reform Judaism don't, you know, totally violate one of the core tenets of Judaism.

[snarkykitty]

Everything about her is fake. She added the link "Kosher Casual" under the sidebar "Where I buy my clothes" AFTER someone commented on her post here:

asetapartlife.blogspot.com/2011/07/tzniut-tuesday-active-wear.html

Jamie said...

"Love the idea for a new series!

I totally agree with what you said--we can't compromise in certain situations and risk having "double standards". Modest active wear is hard to find, though! Maybe you could purchase a stretchy skirt and wear dark leggings underneath? I know that Kosher Casual (http://www.koshercasual.com) has some good selections for comfortable skirts!

What did Anthony have to say on the subject? (I'm always curious to hear what Godly young men have to say about modesty and such. :) )"

July 27, 2011 5:43 PM

I noticed it months ago when it happened but I forgot until I saw it on the side bar. She gets an idea of something and suddenly, it's something she already does or has been doing. Doesn't that constitute a lie?

[Vex]

I have to rant about this.

Lina's blog response? Wow. How incredibly offensive to the Jewish people.

Lina, since we know you read here:

Observing as many Jewish traditions as possible? Doesn't make you Jewish.

Throwing dozens of Jewish phrases and practices into a blog post? Doesn't make you Jewish.

Saying you're Jewish? Doesn't make you Jewish.

Beliving Jesus is the Messiah? Makes you Christian.

You talk about how you and Love have observed all these Jewish laws in the way you live. LOL, you've been living together for less than a month. You weren't having sex or sharing a bed before you were married (supposedly), so stressing how you keep the laws of harchakot, or how strictly you keep shomer negiah? It means nothing. When you've spent a few years doing that, then maybe you can use it as evidence of your faith.

ETA:

I forgot the most important thing of all: Your omg soooo kosher married life? Isn't even recognised because you didn't have a religious ceremony under a Chuppah. You're not even married in the eyes of your religion.

My apologies (not to Lina, to any Jewish readers) if I've used any terms incorrectly.

[helloemi]

I'm positive she reads here.

I "friended" her and TT's facebook page because I find her fascinating. Well... Silly me... My facebook user name/link to my profile is also helloemi. Well my name is Emi so it doesn't take a genius to figure out I am also over here if they are lurking....

Long story short.... DEFRIENDED!

[Deleted03]

Wellllll I think I don't care. She's saying she's practicing orthodox judaism... Yes the conversion process has not been done and most probably won't be with a rabbi... but I personnally don't care... If the Jewish establishement wants to make the process 2-5 years long, that's their problem if people end up calling themselves Jews or more to the point practicing orthodox Judaism. the book and other books are out there to learn about the theory of that practice.

I don't care either if they find a messianic rabbi, or consider themselves in the marginalized of Judaism who believe Jesus was the Messiah and don't want to forget OT laws.

It's just about established religions and their own rules. People from inside the religion will disagree, form other small groups and not follow the big accepted precepts.

Nowhere is she saying now that she's converting with a "mainstream" orthodox rabbi, and she's made it clear she still believe in Jeshua... can't religion be made up and emerge? is that impossible to accept?

You don't consider her Jewish, does not mean she does not have a right to claim that identity in my book ;)

[sea_gale]

I wonder what a "nighttime kippa" looks like, and how it differs from a day time one? I'm picturing an old-timey night cap with stars of David all over it and edged with tzitzit.

[formergothardite]

IMO it is kind of like saying you are a devoted Christian, yet you don't believe in Christ or that you are a athiest, yet you believe in God. A core part of being an Orthodox Jew is that you don't believe in Jesus as the messiah. By calling themselves Orthodox Jews, they are giving off the impression that they believe something that they don't. It would be more honest to call themselves what they are. Followers of Christ who follow most of the Orthodox Jewish laws.

[Rachel333]

It's pretty common for people to call themselves Christian without believing in the divinity of Christ or even that he existed at all. I wouldn't agree, but most don't really bother me. I guess if it's a personal thing for them it's one thing and if they're trying to get other people to have the same beliefs while still saying it's Christianity it's another. I also have no problem with calling Mormons Christian, and that bothers a lot of people (but then, a lot of those people don't like to call Catholics Christian).

I guess I'm really just okay with people believing how they want to and defining their beliefs for themselves. It bothers me more that Lina and TT are calling themselves Orthodox than if they just called themselves Jewish. Having a big blog about is also an issue; it would be different if they were just living their beliefs on their own. But then I can understand the desire to find others with similar beliefs, and at least they aren't trying to convert. I'm not quite sure how I feel about them on this particular issue (in general, I really can't stand them).

[oscar]

I guess I'm really just okay with people believing how they want to and defining their beliefs for themselves...But then I can understand the desire to find others with similar beliefs, and at least they aren't trying to convert.

Edit: Here, I mean to be agreeing with what Rachel333 said in her post above, and expanding on a couple of additional thoughts. It's probably worth taking a peek upthread to see her words in their full context.

Lina was extremely cagy about stating her actual beliefs for a long time, and also about whether she was pursuing a normative Orthodox conversion. And her actions do not take place in a cultural vacuum. Messianic groups have deliberately set out to steeplejack and thereby alter, damage and harm normative Jewish communities. Given this context, the burden is on Lina to demonstrate that she does not have ill intent toward the community whose language and practices she is trying to assume.

And I think it is clear that, no matter what her intentions were, the way Lina was handling things is not okay - namely, other people who did not actually want to buy what Lina was selling were decieved by how she presented herself into believing she and they both belonged to the community of candidates for conversion to normative Orthodox Judaism.

[FaustianSlip]

It bothers me more that Lina and TT are calling themselves Orthodox than if they just called themselves Jewish.

Just out of curiosity, why? Neither of them are Jewish either by lineage or conversion, and Judaism's not a religion where you can just say, "Okay, I've taken Moses into my heart, so now I'm Jewish!" Every major branch of Judaism, from Reform to Orthodox, has a fairly long, formalized conversion process that's required, and I don't know of anyone who has converted, in any denomination, who wasn't asked very pointed questions about their views on Christianity and Jesus (and required to renounce both as part of the conversion ceremony). It was literally the second question my rabbi asked me when I showed up in his office the first time, and my situation wasn't particularly exceptional.

I actually would find it less misleading if they said, "We're Orthodox Messianic Jews." At least that actually describes, to some extent, what they are. Sort of. By claiming to be Jewish when they're not, either in belief or fact, they're misleading people. And I think it's pretty clear from Lina's posts that they're well aware of that, but they don't really care, because hey, they want what they want. Being raised Christian and continuing to say, celebrate Christmas while not actually believing that Jesus is the Messiah isn't really analogous here, I don't think, because neither Lina nor Tony were raised Jewish or have any particular claim to a Jewish identity. More comparable would be a situation where a person wanted to be baptized as a Christian (or go through RCIA, in the Catholic context) but did not actually believe that Jesus was the Messiah/Son of G-d. I don't know of any pastor or priest who'd be likely to go for that if a prospective convert came right out and stated that kind of belief, just as I don't know of any rabbi who would knowingly convert someone who did believe that Jesus was the Messiah. It's disrespectful in the same way that it would be disrespectful to me to declare myself Catholic, go to my local diocese and avail myself of communion when I know full well that I believe neither in the divinity of Jesus nor the Real Presence in the Eucharist. You don't do things like that to people you actually respect- at least, not if you want them to actually like you and want you around.

Can Lina call herself Jewish? Sure, and I can call myself a Native American. Doesn't make it so, though, and if I can't demonstrate some kind of a claim to tribal membership, it doesn't matter how many dreamcatchers I own or powwows I attend- no tribe is going to accept me as a Native American, because at the end of the day, I'm not one (disclaimer: I don't know if there are tribes that would allow non-members to "convert" on the basis of belief in Native American spirituality and religion).

Oh, and as a side note, Lina complains that Messianic Judaism is "messy," and that sounds like a big part of why she's so resistant to identifying with that group. You know what? That's not the fault of the Jewish community. If Messianism is "messy," maybe it would be a better use of her time to, say, stick around and get active in the community in an effort to streamline things rather than kick her fellow believers to the curb because she'd rather lie her way into a better-established community. And Lina has said in the past, repeatedly, that she intends to have an Orthodox Jewish conversion- not a Messianic Orthodox conversion. I know because I asked her myself a number of months back (in her comments), and that was what she replied. That may have changed, and I hope it has, but if that's the case, she should just say so, and people will quit bugging her.

Also, what Oscar said. It's not just a case of Lina sitting at home, wearing her headscarves and going, "Oh, I'm Jewish now!" If that were the case, yeah, it would be silly and laughable, but that's her prerogative. She has danced around the subject of her alleged conversion for months after people started calling her out when she said she was going to get an Orthodox Jewish conversion, she has danced around the subject of what she actually believes until she was cornered and had no choice but to 'fess up. This isn't the behavior of someone who's just doing what they think is right, identifying as they choose and saying, "Hey, this is how I roll- take it or leave it." I don't think people would be nearly as pissed off about it if that were the case. But Lina and Tony both have been incredibly evasive, not to mention preachy and condescending about how much better they are at the Jewish stuff than, y'know, actual Jews, which is just.... Yeah. Insulting doesn't begin to cover it, really. I also think they both know that what they've been doing is wrong, which is why they're so defensive. They're just upset that they've been called out into the open. Also, someone who's just going along and doing her own thing doesn't subsequently go back and start scrubbing her blog of Christian references out of the blue like she was.

[Rachel333]

Just out of curiosity, why?

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm sympathetic to the idea of religious syncretism, if you keep your business to yourself. I see Lina trying to become an Orthodox Jew as someone who doesn't believe in Christ but wants to join Catholicism. She's joining a specific group despite not believing what they teach rather than just saying she believes in a more general Judaism (and I understand the objections to her not being clear about her beliefs; I just mean that it seems weirder to say she is both an Orthodox Jew, a specific group, and believes in Christ than saying she believes in Christ and in Judaism).

I'm curious, how do you feel about the Jewish and Muslim who believe that a messiah who isn't Jesus has already come and still identify as Jews and Muslims? It's not the same as believing in Jesus, since they don't have to believe in the trinity, but it's still a pretty big difference from their religion in general? (I'd give citations for both groups, since I had read about them earlier and know they're out there, but a quick google failed to find it and I have to leave for class in a few minutes.)

Also, what Oscar said. It's not just a case of Lina sitting at home, wearing her headscarves and going, "Oh, I'm Jewish now!" If that were the case, yeah, it would be silly and laughable, but that's her prerogative.

That was sort of my point, which I guess I articulated badly; I wouldn't really see a problem with someone doing that, and the beliefs in general don't really bother me, but I think how she and TT are handling their situation is wrong.

Can Lina call herself Jewish? Sure, and I can call myself a Native American. Doesn't make it so, though, and if I can't demonstrate some kind of a claim to tribal membership, it doesn't matter how many dreamcatchers I own or powwows I attend- no tribe is going to accept me as a Native American, because at the end of the day, I'm not one (disclaimer: I don't know if there are tribes that would allow non-members to "convert" on the basis of belief in Native American spirituality and religion).

Yeah, it's not quite the same thing. Being a Native American is pretty much solely about genetics. It's not like "Jewish", which can be either religious or ethnic. There, however, many, many non-Native Americans who embrace Native American spirituality. I guess that's another thing where I think just keep it to yourself (I actually have a lot more to say on that, but it's not completely on-topic and, again, I have to go to class, haha.)

I'm sure you didn't mean to change the meaning, but you cut my post to make it seem like I'm okay with them. I know I didn't really express it well, but I thought I at least said that I didn't agree with how they are doing things (though again, looking back I wasn't very clear. What I meant was that I'm not quite sure how I feel about them believing the way they do, though I think it's probably okay, but I don't like the way they are handling their situation). My actual quote was:

I guess I'm really just okay with people believing how they want to and defining their beliefs for themselves. It bothers me more that Lina and TT are calling themselves Orthodox than if they just called themselves Jewish. Having a big blog about is also an issue; it would be different if they were just living their beliefs on their own. But then I can understand the desire to find others with similar beliefs, and at least they aren't trying to convert. I'm not quite sure how I feel about them on this particular issue (in general, I really can't stand them).

[oscar]

I'm sorry, Rachel333 - I quoted your post because I think you had already made a good point, and I just wanted to follow up with a couple of additional thoughts. I didn't mean to make it seem like you were saying something you were not, and I am sorry if I gave anyone that impression.

Now that I think about it, what Lina was doing actually makes little sense if she is seeking like-minded community. Declining to provide definitive answers when asked about one's beliefs is a terrible way of finding people who share them.

[FaustianSlip]

I'm curious, how do you feel about the Jewish and Muslim who believe that a messiah who isn't Jesus has already come and still identify as Jews and Muslims?

I'm assuming that in the Jewish case, you're referring primarily to the Lubavitchers who think that their late Rabbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, was the Messiah. I find it hugely problematic for a variety of reasons, and it frustrates me that even as some Lubavitchers deride Conservative and Reform Jews and rabbis as violating Jewish law, not practicing "real" Judaism, et cetera, they're happy to turn a blind eye to people in their own midst who claim all kinds of things, ranging from, "Our dead Rebbe is the Messiah," to "Our dead Rebbe is coming back and will fulfill the messianic prophecies then." Sound familiar? So yeah, I find it equally problematic, and I'm not alone there. The part about that that I find troubling is that there are plenty of Lubavitchers who are not Meshichists (people who believe that R. Schneerson was/is the Messiah), but there's also a good chunk that are, and both kinds are heavily engaged in Jewish outreach, all over the world. So to me, it's a problem not dissimilar to what we get with people like Lina. The only difference is that in the case of Lubavitchers, they're actually Jewish in that they're either Jewish by birth or conversion, but I wouldn't say that Messianic Lubavitchers are practicing normative Judaism any more than Lina is. Incidentally, there was a while where Lubavitch rabbis were instructed to refrain from sponsoring conversions, for fear that the conversions would be invalidated due to suspicions that the candidate, his rabbis or both held these beliefs. So there is controversy about it; there's a big power struggle in Crown Heights (home of the movement) right now over this issue.

As far as the Muslims go, I don't have a particular dog in that fight and know nothing at all about the group in question, so I would be hesitant to comment. If we're talking about Muslims who claim that Jesus and not Mohammed was the last and greatest prophet, I would say that based on what I know of Islam, that doesn't seem like it's in keeping with some pretty fundamental tenets of the religion, but I would look to someone better versed in Islamic law to get an idea of how far out that kind of belief would be.

It's really not that complicated: if you're Jewish and practicing mainstream Judaism, you don't believe that the Messiah has shown up yet, simply because we can look in a newspaper or look out the window and see that there is not world peace, which is one of the things the Messiah is supposed to bring. Thus, Jesus isn't the Messiah, Bar Kochba wasn't the Messiah, Shabbatai Tzvi wasn't the Messiah and the Lubavitcher Rebbe wasn't, either. It would be lovely to have a Messianic Age and have everyone be happy and at peace and have their needs met, but I think we can all agree that that is not currently the case.

[Patsy]

I'm assuming that in the Jewish case, you're referring primarily to the Lubavitchers who think that their late Rabbe, Menachem Mendel Schneerson, was the Messiah. I find it hugely problematic for a variety of reasons, and it frustrates me that even as some Lubavitchers deride Conservative and Reform Jews and rabbis as violating Jewish law, not practicing "real" Judaism, et cetera, they're happy to turn a blind eye to people in their own midst who claim all kinds of things, ranging from, "Our dead Rebbe is the Messiah," to "Our dead Rebbe is coming back and will fulfill the messianic prophecies then." Sound familiar? So yeah, I find it equally problematic, and I'm not alone there. The part about that that I find troubling is that there are plenty of Lubavitchers who are not Meshichists (people who believe that R. Schneerson was/is the Messiah), but there's also a good chunk that are, and both kinds are heavily engaged in Jewish outreach, all over the world. So to me, it's a problem not dissimilar to what we get with people like Lina. The only difference is that in the case of Lubavitchers, they're actually Jewish in that they're either Jewish by birth or conversion, but I wouldn't say that Messianic Lubavitchers are practicing normative Judaism any more than Lina is. Incidentally, there was a while where Lubavitch rabbis were instructed to refrain from sponsoring conversions, for fear that the conversions would be invalidated due to suspicions that the candidate, his rabbis or both held these beliefs. So there is controversy about it; there's a big power struggle in Crown Heights (home of the movement) right now over this issue.

I think this is fascinating, and I had no idea there were such things as Lubavitcher Messianic Hasids. (One of those 'the more you learn, the more you know you don't know' situations.) For a brief OT sojourn: are other Hasidic groups all concerned with bringing the Messiah? Are they as large as the Lubavitchers, or does the Lubavitcher group (Messianic and non-Messianic) actually make up a very large number of America's Hasidic Jews?

[Guest Anonymous]

Wellllll I think I don't care. She's saying she's practicing orthodox judaism... Yes the conversion process has not been done and most probably won't be with a rabbi... but I personnally don't care... If the Jewish establishement wants to make the process 2-5 years long, that's their problem if people end up calling themselves Jews or more to the point practicing orthodox Judaism. the book and other books are out there to learn about the theory of that practice.

I don't care either if they find a messianic rabbi, or consider themselves in the marginalized of Judaism who believe Jesus was the Messiah and don't want to forget OT laws.

It's just about established religions and their own rules. People from inside the religion will disagree, form other small groups and not follow the big accepted precepts.

Nowhere is she saying now that she's converting with a "mainstream" orthodox rabbi, and she's made it clear she still believe in Jeshua... can't religion be made up and emerge? is that impossible to accept?

You don't consider her Jewish, does not mean she does not have a right to claim that identity in my book ;)

Lina can do whatever she wants, no one is going to rip a box of matzo out of her hot little hands. However, what she's doing is not independent of context. There's a long history of Christians killing Jews over religion. I completely understand how a Jewish person may have a problem with a Christian co-opting the identity that Jews have died for - and then claiming to be better at Judaism when they know hardly anything about it. It's offensive and just as Lina has a right to butcher a lot of Hebrew words, people have a right to be offended because she's doing it. Context matters.

Not to mention the sneaky, deceitful conversion attempts that are also part and parcel of the Fake Jew movement. It's like a straight person pretending to be gay and infiltrating a community of gay people, but all the while they intend to fool others into going to therapy meant to turn them straight. It's not illegal but it's sure as hell unethical and disgusting.

(I know Lina has said that they don't intend to try to convert but she's been so underhanded about this that frankly I don't believe her for a second.)

[stonefruit]

Wellllll I think I don't care. She's saying she's practicing orthodox judaism... Yes the conversion process has not been done and most probably won't be with a rabbi... but I personnally don't care... If the Jewish establishement wants to make the process 2-5 years long, that's their problem if people end up calling themselves Jews or more to the point practicing orthodox Judaism. the book and other books are out there to learn about the theory of that practice.

I don't care either if they find a messianic rabbi, or consider themselves in the marginalized of Judaism who believe Jesus was the Messiah and don't want to forget OT laws.

It's just about established religions and their own rules. People from inside the religion will disagree, form other small groups and not follow the big accepted precepts.

Nowhere is she saying now that she's converting with a "mainstream" orthodox rabbi, and she's made it clear she still believe in Jeshua... can't religion be made up and emerge? is that impossible to accept?

You don't consider her Jewish, does not mean she does not have a right to claim that identity in my book ;)

With all due respect, Sophie, that's simply not correct. Judaism has high bars to entry for a reason; Lina's actually a very good example of the need for such high bars. This isn't "people from inside the religion" disagreeing; this is "one of Judaism's central tenets is the belief that we definitely are still waiting for moshiach, and thinking that (a) moshiach has come, (b) in the person of Jesus of Nazareth, is incompatible with Judaism."

ETA: Also, what Lissar said.